Can We Take Some Luck out of 9-ball?

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
The more I watch 9-ball being played Texas Express rules the more I think it should be changed to some kind of modified version of push-out.

1)A guy misses the shot and makes it or another ball in another pocket, so gets to keep shooting=call-shot only.

2)A guy misses a shot and lucks out and leaves a lock-up safe that he kissed-off a ball or went around 22 rails, and in no way played a two-way shot.= Maybe call a two way shot and point to where the area the QB is going to be on the safe part of the shot. I know, “good luck with this part”. But there is just too much luck in 9-ball especially from the lesser players that miss often.

I know 9-ball could be a better game with a few changes. I’m not saying my ideas are the way to go, but there are a lot of very smart pool players on here that could come up with a way to make 9-ball a game of more skill than it is now. Just my rant of the day. Johnnyt
 
Looking at the rules for 10 Ball and the way it was played at SBE, I'd have to agree with Joe Tucker, that 10 Ball is the game of the future. The game seems to be gaining in popularity over 9 Ball in a lot of places.
I've said before that if you change the rules and make 9 Ball more challenging a hell of a lot of people will stop playing it in a hurry.
 
10-ball according to WPA rules + rule extensions

The more I watch 9-ball being played Texas Express rules the more I think it should be changed to some kind of modified version of push-out.

1)A guy misses the shot and makes it or another ball in another pocket, so gets to keep shooting=call-shot only.

2)A guy misses a shot and lucks out and leaves a lock-up safe that he kissed-off a ball or went around 22 rails, and in no way played a two-way shot.= Maybe call a two way shot and point to where the area the QB is going to be on the safe part of the shot. I know, “good luck with this part”. But there is just too much luck in 9-ball especially from the lesser players that miss often.

I know 9-ball could be a better game with a few changes. I’m not saying my ideas are the way to go, but there are a lot of very smart pool players on here that could come up with a way to make 9-ball a game of more skill than it is now. Just my rant of the day. Johnnyt

JT:

Short answer: play 10-ball, according to WPA rules (call shot) + some rule additions/extensions to the stock WPA rules:

+ a ball pocketed on a called safety gives option to the incoming player (this minimizes where a player wants to get rid of an easy ball but doesn't want to deal with getting on the next ball by "giving the table to his/her opponent" [i.e. he/she just wants to pocket that ball and let his/her opponent deal with the situation -- giving option to the opponent gets rid of that crap].)

+ a called shot that misses, gives option to the incoming player (this one is obvious -- it minimizes "moral safes," two-way shots, and "lucky leaves")

This the way 10-ball is played on the Tony Robles' Predator Open/Pro 10-ball tour. And it's also the way it's played at Allen Hopkins' Super Billiards Expo.

Unfortunately, due to 9-ball's flawed diamond-shaped rack, as well as the ingrained Texas Express mindset of the players that play it, adding call-shot rules (nevermind the rule additions mentioned above) to 9-ball simply won't fly. Call-shot on the 9-ball itself, yes, but call shot on every shot? Pigs will fly before that happens.

Fortunately, 10-ball (a very, very old game that was resurrected from the ashes due to everyone's frustrations with the luck in 9-ball) is young enough in everyone's minds, that ruleset governing the minimization of luck can (and will) take hold.

"Rotation pool" does not mean that Texas Express is bolted to its hip. I'm looking forward to 10-ball, the way it's supposed to be played, is going to gradually take the place of 9-ball.

IMHO,
-Sean
 
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Let 9-ball alone. It is what it is.
If you want a harder version, do as others have said. Play 10-ball by WPA rules. I was very impressed with the difficulty of 10-ball as it was played at the SBE.
 
Good points so far.

Texas Express 9-ball (and 10-ball when played with the same rules) is like a holey tent pitched in mosquito-ridden woods. It would be so easy to improve it by just putting duct tape over the holes, or stitching the holes closed, but the owners think it's just fine the way it is. After all, everyone who uses it gets bitten.
 
All good points above. I too hope more 10-ball will be the norm instead of 9-ball at tournaments and action matches. And what was said about the 9-ball rack...there really isn't much of a good fix for that. Move the rack any which way and players will come up with a new way to make some ball on the break. I guess I need to work on my 10-ball break some more. Thanks guys. Johnnyt
 
All good points above. I too hope more 10-ball will be the norm instead of 9-ball at tournaments and action matches. And what was said about the 9-ball rack...there really isn't much of a good fix for that. Move the rack any which way and players will come up with a new way to make some ball on the break. I guess I need to work on my 10-ball break some more. Thanks guys. Johnnyt

JT:

No problem, buddy! You're right about the 9-ball rack -- it's flawed due to the diamond-shape, and it was only a matter of time before a very smart player (Cory Deuel) "hacked" the rack (like a hacker breaking into a computer network) and "broke" it (in a symbolic sense). No matter where you place that diamond-shaped rack -- head ball on the spot, or 9-ball on the spot -- there's a cut-break designed to make a wing ball and/or the headball.

What's interesting about the 10-ball's triangle-shaped design, is that the most vulnerable row of balls is not the headball or the "wings" of the rack (i.e. the last row). No, in 10-ball, it's the second row, just behind the headball. With a properly calibrated HARD hit, those two balls head for the side pockets. Shane Van Boening's the best at this, albeit SVB's "pop and drop" break (where he hits down on the cue ball slightly, causing it to be slightly airborne when it hits the head ball, pops up in the air about a foot high, and then drops down into the center of the table) comes at a price -- lots of stress on the footspot marker. That downward force of the cue ball arcing over and "landing" on the headball causes that footspot to develop a divot quickly, and you know that once a divot is created, it gets progressively worse with each break, because the equator of that head ball is now "always lower" than the cue ball's equator, even with a sliding/non-"pop and drop" break. Result: from that point on, no matter how you break, that cue ball is going to bounce, maybe even launch off the table.

So, in summary for your 10-ball practice, no "pop and drop" breaks -- unless you want to be in the habit of continually replacing your footspot marker. :)

-Sean
 
The more I watch 9-ball being played Texas Express rules the more I think it should be changed to some kind of modified version of push-out.

1)A guy misses the shot and makes it or another ball in another pocket, so gets to keep shooting=call-shot only.

2)A guy misses a shot and lucks out and leaves a lock-up safe that he kissed-off a ball or went around 22 rails, and in no way played a two-way shot.= Maybe call a two way shot and point to where the area the QB is going to be on the safe part of the shot. I know, “good luck with this part”. But there is just too much luck in 9-ball especially from the lesser players that miss often.

I know 9-ball could be a better game with a few changes. I’m not saying my ideas are the way to go, but there are a lot of very smart pool players on here that could come up with a way to make 9-ball a game of more skill than it is now. Just my rant of the day. Johnnyt

First off let me say that I have no interest in playing 9-ball. The only game that keeps my interest is one pocket and maybe a little banks. But back when I did play a lot of 9-ball, I'd love to see my opponent "ride the nine" or even luck a ball in. It only gave him the impression he had a chance. It's like all the suckers playing poker nowadays. The cream will rise to the top and the suckers will play more and lose more if they get lucky once in a while. The better players seldom luck balls in because they hit the pocket where they're aiming, but they still get lucky in situations such as on the break & the leave after the break, the leave their opponent leaves them etc... That stuff can't be legislated out with rules so why try to legislate luck out of one aspect of the game? It all works out in the end.

Reminds me of an old story...

Gary Spaeth and I were road partners for many years up til his death in 2000. We were at the Clyde Childress Memorial Tournament outsite of Richmond KY back in the mid 80's. This was a memorable tournament for me for many reasons. Gary won the Bank Pool Division for the first time. He was also doing well in the 9-ball tournament up til his match with Grady. This was when Grady was still playing pretty sporty! (no offence intended Grady, if you read this. lol) Well, Grady had been on a crusade to change 9-ball to a call shot game (among other things). The match came down hill -hill with Grady breaking. He broke, made a ball but was hooked on the one ball. They were at opposite ends of the table with several blockers. Gary and I both thought he'd get back to the table probably with a shot of some sort. Grady attempeted to kick at the one ball and barely caught the edge of the ball. The cueball continued on 2 rails caromed off another ball and struck the 9-ball sending it at a very obtuse angle towards the side pocket, just trickling! It looked like the ball wasn't going to reach the rail but at the last moment it drifted to the left and into the pocket with the last tiny bit of energy it had. This was a losers bracket quarter final match so Gary was history in the 9-ball and Grady, the gentleman that he is came over and apologized to Gary. He said I really hate to win that way. Gary laughingly replied it's not as bad as losing that way.

A couple of weeks went by and Gary and I went to Starchers in Akron for one of their bigger tourneys. We walked back through the crowded pool room and towards the rear Grady was hitting some balls and "holding court" talking to some of his fans while preaching his ideas of "Grady's Rules", specifically call shot. As we approached Grady kind of flushed. He asked Gary to come over where he was talking to his fans and told the story of his lucky break a few weeks before and again apologized for winning that way. Grady's a class act but I don't think he needed to feel so bad about one lucky break when during the course of the match probably a hundred different situations could have been turning points in the match and could only really be attributed to luck. There just so much that can go wrong playing pool and you can also benefit from your opponents actions whether intentional or not. There's going to be luck, we just have to make ourselves lucky by being as prepared for whatever situations arise and not dwell on it if your opponent gets lucky! JMHO
 
Looking forward to getting abused after this post, but I feel compelled to share my views.

Speaking as a fan, I think the "option to give the table back" version of nine/ten ball stinks.

In fact for me, the majesty of pool is greatest when players use great imagination to play offense and defense together. For the many one-pocket players on this forum, I’m going to have to say that now that I’ve gone to Derby City the last two years and watched the one-pocket event, I’m starting to appreciate why you all love the game so much, for no game over the glorious green felt entails greater imagination with respect to the simultaneous execution of offense and defense. Watching the great creativity displayed in shot design by the top one pocket players is a true delight to behold. Yes, pool at its highest level is a game of great imagination, at least until recently …..

…… now, there are those who want to litigate much of the imagination out of the game by allowing an incoming player to refuse the position left after an opponent’s missed shot. Some even go as far as suggesting that this removes the luck factor from the game, a statement that is patently false, for all it really does is to eliminate one luck factor by introducing another one ---- the over-penalization of a player whose miss results in an unintended safety (a result that in Texas Express is far less common than a miss entailing a safety that was planned with imaginative shot design.)

This type of 10-ball was tried at Valley Forge, and the offense oriented racks were just as electrifying as they would have been using Texas Express rules. Unfortunately, there were far fewer racks entailing the kind of imagination that, to me, makes rotational pool so fascinating, because the two way shot, which represents the highest pinnacle of imaginative play in our game, could no longer be gainfully employed.

As a paying fan, I think this brand of nine/ten ball stinks on several levels. First of all, every time the game is made less recognizable to its fan base through the use of obscure rules, it adds to the already regrettable (and often bemoaned here on AZB) disconnect between the pro and amateur levels of pool. I sat next to an amateur that sat dumbfounded as a player shot the nine ball foor consectuvie times, as each miss left an undesirable position, asking me to explain what the bleep was going on. Second, robbing the game of so much of its strategic majesty because it is what some of the players want devalues our game.

There is, by the way, a middle ground between "Texas Express" and "option to give back after a miss" and that is allowing a pushout after any miss of a called shot. Though I wouldn't like this as much as Texas Express, I could just about tolerate the game if played this way.

It’s all part of a long and disturbing trend in the game. Players can get by with less billiard knowledge than in the past, because even the “D” players can play jump shots now. Just one example of how we’ve deemphasized one of the skill elements in the game. The jump cue has devalued our game. Equally disturbing is the disallowance of the soft break. If someone can gain control of the table with a soft break, it is not by luck but by skill that they do so, but in this case, the hard break, surely entailing more luck than a soft break, is mandated. Wonder what’s next --- perhaps disallowing soft shots for the entire rack?

Another fan-unfriendly change in increasing use is not counting the ten on the break. Speaking as a fan, I’d say there is almost nothing hat is more exciting than the golden break.

To be honest, if “option to give back the table” becomes the dominant way that rotation games are played in the pool room, I may give up both nine-ball and ten-ball completely. I'd surely play more straight pool, but I’d probably use some of the time freed up to dig deeper into one pocket, which is rightfully celebrated as a game entailing the most imaginative use of offense and defense simultaneously. There is room for one more member at onepocket.org, isn’t there?

I spend thousands of dollars every year to attend pro tournaments. Thankfully, if “option to give back the table ten-ball” gradually becomes the dominant way that the game is played, I will have the option to discontinue attending and purchasing tickets to pro events employing that version of the game.
 
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The biggest problem with 9 balls it is so hard for a beginner to learn to play well. i.e. most patterns require long cut shots or long multi-rail leaves.

So, they get in a lucky whack habit. It makes it a challenging game for a quality opponent.

Also, after the first 4 balls are cleared, usually anybody can run out. Pro's have similar issues, but just not with every rack.

That makes it kind of a run out or lose sort of game. 10 ball steps this up some, but frankly this is why I like 8 ball. In 8 ball, you can run or defend, but rarely feel the need to just give something a whack.

Unfortunately, the fix is probably to accept this as the downfall of rotation.

Push out 9ball has some merit, but I need to try it more.
 
JT:
Shane Van Boening's the best at this, albeit SVB's "pop and drop" break (where he hits down on the cue ball slightly, causing it to be slightly airborne when it hits the head ball, pops up in the air about a foot high, and then drops down into the center of the table) comes at a price -- lots of stress on the footspot marker.
-Sean

Funny you should say this at this time, I learned that break, indirectly, from Gene Nagy about a gazillion years ago. I used it in 9 Ball for many years and was pretty successful with it. Somehow I got away from it and haven't been able to perfect it again. Probably due to the popularity of breaking from the side rails. If, and that's a big if, I start playing 9 Ball again, I'll work on it. Also for 10 Ball, never tried it at that game.
SJM, it would be a crying shame for you not to attend tournaments because of the lack of the two-way shot. I dislike most things about today's 9 Ball rules but that sure as hell doesn't keep me from attending tournaments! Lack of funds, however........:frown:
Edit: I too favor the 10 {and even the 9} on the break as a win.
 
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sfleinen: nice description of the 10b break and the worn spot issue. The fact that the head ball can sink below the equator of the next row and cause balls to jump a little is sort of a subtle thing that even some knowledgeable players don't know about or don't acknowledge.

From your description of the pop n drop break you make it sound like shane hits downward a bit on purpose, but as far as I know it's just a normal break done very hard (and sickeningly controlled) - all hard breaks go airborne, you can't ever break with a 100% level cue... his just pops higher because he hits damned hard.

Your recommendation was to avoid that break, but A: I don't know if the sunken footspot wrecks the 2nd row break. Shane obviously does fine making that 2nd ball. B: his break is called by many knowledgeable people the best 10b break in the world. I wouldn't be quick to tell anyone "don't imitate it". If it's within anyone's power to copy that break, then by god please do. It's incredibly effective, even if you have to replace that 5 cent footspot more often.

SJM: I like a lot of what you wrote, but as a fan with a million gigs of pool videos, I have absolutely no enthusiasm for golden breaks. I'm hoping to watch interesting shooting. The golden break is generally the result of a bad rack or a lucky kick. It does nothing for me. I feel cheated out of getting to see that rack played out.

I may be in the minority, as ESPN will replay every break 2 or 3 times. Am I the only guy who find the break the most boring part of the match to spectate?

Oh, as for the original topic... the feel of 9 ball is a face paced game with highs and lows and luck and lots of runouts. Most of these rule changes sort of wreck that. They make a fairer game, but it has a different feel. I tried rollout 9b... you know, the 50 year old version... and found it was less challenging and fun. I wouldn't want to lose a 50k tournament to a lucky roll, but I wouldn't want to play in at all if I literally can't safe anyone.
 
I tried rollout 9b... you know, the 50 year old version... and found it was less challenging and fun. I wouldn't want to lose a 50k tournament to a lucky roll, but I wouldn't want to play in at all if I literally can't safe anyone.

How long did you play it and what makes you think you know how to play it properly? No offense intended, but most people who haven't played that way these days have no idea of just how much the game applies to the opponent's style of play. When you push out do you push out to a safe, a bank, a shot, a carom? When you push out and where, how will/can your opponent respond? I've played both ways and deciding how, where, and when to push and how your opponent will respond a lot more challenging that trying to stick him where he has to kick/jump, there is much less to consider playing one foul. This is one reason that version of the game is popular. It's easier, not as much thought involved. Remember, in push out you can still play a safe off a ball and still set yourself kicks/jumps that you think you can perform better than the other guy and setting a trap is half the game.
 
Honestly, I see no problem with 9 ball as it is (except possibly the rack). The luck factor makes it fun to play with players of lesser skill and gives me a chance against players of more skill.

If you think the luck factor is a problem, would you prefer a game where, if you came up against someone better than you in a tournament, you virtually would have no chance against them? That doesn't sound like any fun at all. I like being able to out run the nuts every once in a while. It gives me motivation to keep playing and getting better.

If I get beat by a lucky opponent, its my own fault for letting him/her to the table, not the game's fault.
 
The more I watch 9-ball being played Texas Express rules the more I think it should be changed to some kind of modified version of push-out.
.......
I know 9-ball could be a better game with a few changes. I’m not saying my ideas are the way to go, but there are a lot of very smart pool players on here that could come up with a way to make 9-ball a game of more skill than it is now. Just my rant of the day. Johnnyt

I for one absolutely love the luck factor. After all, Luck is for Losers, correct?

Even in APA 9 ball, the luck factor makes life very exciting.

Why take a great gambling game and try to make it boring as hell? Unless you are one of the TAP players who want to call their shots like Willie Mosconi and be big shots.:grin-square:

Come on and admit it - most of the players on AZ probably like the luck factor. Someone should do a poll.
 
I like the luck factor. Take luck out of billiards and you will watch the number of players decrease by over 50%. Make me believe I don't have a chance at winning and see if I show up to play much less pay tourney fees knowing I can't possibly even get lucky and win.

People complain all the time about how this sport is failing or has failed to make it on TV. Complain about the sport not having enough funds to support pro players. Take luck out and you eliminate people who will help fund tournaments payouts. You eliminate the fun of newer players so they never get addicted. To me it would be a bad turn for the game.

If you want to play a more elite game then do it with rules agreed on your opponent. But anything that makes the game harder will eliminate players that the game needs to continue to grow.

You want luck to play less and skill to be used more? Enter more high dollar tournaments.

This is only one players opinion and is worth exactly what you payed for it.:wink:
 
taking the luck out of nine ball

i swore i wouldnt get into this. pre texas express, the way 9 ball was played on the west coast in the 50's through 70's was essentially according to the BCA rules of the time with a few variants. 1. all shots (pocket and ball) were called. 2. if you were shooting safe you called safety. a ball made on a safety was respotted. 3. we played to hit. that is regardless of where the object ball and cue ball lay you had to make an attempt to hit the object ball but in your attempt you had to declare a pocket or a safety. if you made a legal hit on the object ball, good. but if you missed the incoming player then had to the choice to shot the shot that was left or give the shot back to the opponent. this could occur as many times as you wanted it to happen until the incoming player chose to take the shot. i.e. there was no standard ball in hand for a foul but you could declare at the beginning of the game a three foul loss of game rule, or a two fouls ball in hand rule. regardless the player at the table was required to shoot at the object ball.
4. say you had a 9 ball near the jaws and a shot at the object ball but not a combo or bank at the nine. you had to declare your intent such as. "playing 9 in the corner". if you made the nine fine. however if you made the object ball and not made the nine, the object ball was spotted and the incoming player had the choice to take the shot or let the other player shoot again. reverse that say instead you called the object ball but not the nine and you made both, then the nine was spotted and the player continued to shoot. there was no foul or error as you pocketed the called object ball. and the final scenario, you call them both and only one goes, the pocketed ball gets spotted and the incoming player has the option to take over the table or let the other player continue shooting. finally 5. all balls in hand were from the kitchen, unless the game was declared as in #3 above. however if the object ball was also in the kitchen it got spotted. if there was already a ball on the spot the object ball got spotted behind it. now since it was a foul, you, the incoming player could take the shot or let the opponent shoot again since it was his foul that gave you ball in hand in the kitchen. well thats about it. plus remember the BCA was the Hoyle of pool at that time. any time you questioned the table, the play, or had a controversy, BCA rule book took over.

this style of play took out most of the luck. the one thing that could occur is the player calls a safety, makes the hit, and gets a lucky roll that hooks you. but then that element of the game applies in any situation, except maybe efren reyes who seems to know where all balls are going when he kicks, slams, or craps on the table. gerald
 
Lucky9

I like the luck factor, makes for a very exciting game of Billiards!

I really like watching two C players, amazing to watch, they become combination Champion's!, very exciting, especially if you got a bet down.



Leave 9-Ball alone, or if anything, go back to "two shot roll out", and winner breaks!

Your better Players and Pro's play hundred's of 9-Ball games without lucking a ball sometimes, and then again may have several, thats 9-Ball.

Lucky9:grin:

David Harcrow
 
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