Can you truly call the APA a success?

I have played in three different league systems. APA, BCAPL, VNEA. If I had to rank them, it would be APA while the BCAPL/VNEA fighting for second. Still trying to understand why everyone thinks having an Advanced Division is good for the sport. Not in my mind.
 
cuesmith said:
Unfortunately, in a lot of areas, the APA is the only game in town. From everything I've read, the BCAPL blows them away unless you're a SL2 or 3. Then if you improve your team will have to split. I don't mean to keep hammering the APA, but if people ask, rather than let them go into it blindly, I try to make them aware of what it takes a lot of people a few years to realize. The APA does not explain their faults to people when they join up. Someone should!
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If the APA is so bad, it would seem pretty simple for anyone to come along with something "better" to replace them, or at least offer an alternative for players to choose from. That's what I'm trying to say.

The APA is the biggest league for a reason....people seem to like playing in the APA. If they didn't, they would be inviting other competing leagues to come in an replace them. And since it seems everyone believes league operators are all getting rich running leagues, there should be no shortage of people willing to bring their "better" product to town and take on the lowly APA.....after all, we all know the APA sucks, right???

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
If the APA is so bad, it would seem pretty simple for anyone to come along with something "better" to replace them, or at least offer an alternative for players to choose from. That's what I'm trying to say.

The APA is the biggest league for a reason....people seem to like playing in the APA. If they didn't, they would be inviting other competing leagues to come in an replace them. And since it seems everyone believes league operators are all getting rich running leagues, there should be no shortage of people willing to bring their "better" product to town and take on the lowly APA.....after all, we all know the APA sucks, right???

Steve
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You're the only one to say setting up a new league would be simple! I've done it and it certainly wasn't simple. It's a full time job to say the least. When I did it, I was also the owner of a pool room and was making custom cues. Also I don't drink and dealing with drunks on a regular basis is more trouble than it would be worth to me. WHen I did bring a new league to Cincinnati back in '92-94, we overcame the APA in just 2 years, when they had been entrenched in the area for at least 10 years previously. The best selling point we had was that we weren't the APA!


In Cincinnati we had one APA LO who skipped town with ALL the money, just before the end of a session. The APA refused to do anything about it. They said we had to go after the LO who stole the money, and he was no where to be found! After him, the LO's were terrible, but as I said, it was the only game in town. There was so much sandbagging and team favoritism by the LO's that it was a joke. I have so many horror stories about my experiences with the APA that I'd rather write a book than try to explain them all here. Whenever we tried to get satisfaction from the National level, the complaints either fell on deaf ears or even when they ruled in our favor, the LO's went against the ruling and did what they wanted to do anyway! It's just not worth the aggravation! They know they have the only game in town and use that to run roughshod over the members. I'm not saying this is everywhere, but from the responses I've seen here it seems it's not uncommon! I don't want to argue about it anymore. I'm simply advising people who ASK to stay away from the APA if they want to improve their game and play pool instead of the BS numbers games necessary to keep a team of players together once their handicaps rise over SL3! Nuff said!
 
cuesmith said:
For who? Terry Bell and Larry Hubbard, yes. For the sport in general, that's highly debatable!
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For Terry Bell and Larry Hubbard, and their League Operators!

cash%20cow.jpg
 
pooltchr said:
If the APA is so bad, it would seem pretty simple for anyone to come along with something "better" to replace them, or at least offer an alternative for players to choose from. That's what I'm trying to say.

The APA is the biggest league for a reason....people seem to like playing in the APA. If they didn't, they would be inviting other competing leagues to come in an replace them. And since it seems everyone believes league operators are all getting rich running leagues, there should be no shortage of people willing to bring their "better" product to town and take on the lowly APA.....after all, we all know the APA sucks, right???

Steve
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Steve, Your simple argument and straightforward explanation of the situation is correct but it's not going to do any good with Cuesmith. I'm sure you see that by now. IT's obviously a success for its founders and pool.
 
pooltchr said:
If the APA is so bad, it would seem pretty simple for anyone to come along with something "better" to replace them, or at least offer an alternative for players to choose from. That's what I'm trying to say.

The APA is the biggest league for a reason....people seem to like playing in the APA. If they didn't, they would be inviting other competing leagues to come in an replace them. And since it seems everyone believes league operators are all getting rich running leagues, there should be no shortage of people willing to bring their "better" product to town and take on the lowly APA.....after all, we all know the APA sucks, right???

Steve
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It's not so simple when the market is cornered. How many average APA players do you think even know other pool leagues exist? I'm saying less than half, and being conservative at that. Do you think the APA is going to tell them, "Hey guys, you know you have a choice right?" I think not! Yes, other leagues could do more to expose themselves, but through what avenue would they reach the APA players? As already stated, most average APA players don't watch pool on tv or follow pool whatsoever. That makes it especially hard for any pool-related merchandise or products to be marketed towards them, unless it is through the APA! I agree with cuesmith on this one, and think that your logic and thought process is flawed Steve.
 
Based on said original goals,,,the APA has obviously failed. What we have come to discover is that the pro game and the everyday players are two separate entities. You can go into any league venue and ask who xxxx pro player is, and they will draw a blank. They only know of two players, the Black Widow(and I'll bet most of them don't even know her real name) and "that blonde British player".
 
tom mcgonagle said:
I watched a story last night on the discovery channel. A man in England was walking around with a metal detector. He went into a empty field just off the road. He discovered a load of gold that was buried in the field. It turned out to be old gold artifact worst an estimated 3.25 million dollars.

Just the fact that he got out there and made the discovery was truly amazing.

You might look at the people that started the APA the same way. They took a shot and found a bonanza. Maybe they weren't looking for a pot of gold but they sure found one. Good luck to them.

Could they do more for the PRO'S, sure they could but what have the PRO'S done to help themselves? I'll let you answer that question. I know they could have done a better job. That's all I"ll say.

The people running these leagues are very organized, At least where I'm playing and they do a great job getting people involved. That's all they need to do. It's up to the PRO'S to promote themselves.

Just a few of my thoughts folks.

_______________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com

This I do know. More amateurs have bought my book than PRO'S, and I thank all of you.
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Good post.
I agree with you comments. A lot of people talk about the APA not putting enough into the pro's organizations. The thing about that is that they need to take care of themselves first. The sponsor money is a bonus and not a life raft.

I stopped playing in the APA because of work, but would have no problems having a dollar per player going to the men's and women's tournaments. This is of course so long as they don't set fire to that open door year over year.

I do have one question about sanctioning. What exactly do the sanctioning fees go towards? If I had the money to put on a tournament I am not so sure I would want to waste the money on paying sanction fees. If I had $40k in added money and the $40k for sanction fees (I'm shooting in the dark on that one) I would have $80k added money long before I paid admin fees.
 
Baxter said:
It's not so simple when the market is cornered. How many average APA players do you think even know other pool leagues exist? I'm saying less than half, and being conservative at that. Do you think the APA is going to tell them, "Hey guys, you know you have a choice right?" I think not! Yes, other leagues could do more to expose themselves, but through what avenue would they reach the APA players? As already stated, most average APA players don't watch pool on tv or follow pool whatsoever. That makes it especially hard for any pool-related merchandise or products to be marketed towards them, unless it is through the APA! I agree with cuesmith on this one, and think that your logic and thought process is flawed Steve.
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Steve's thought process and logic is hardly flawed. It's not up to the APA to advertise other leagues, or give their members a choice of other leagues. It is solely up to the other leagues to put themselves out there and compete.

In my opinion the APA is a fine example of success in the billiards industry and also a fine example of how you can't win for losing. I say that because no matter how much money they put into billiards it will never be enough.
 
cuesmith said:
I did that once, but don't have the time and energy to devote to it again. Besides I'd rather spend my spare time letting the PEOPLE WHO HAVE ASKED know the truth about the APA! Do you have a problem with us answering the peoples questions about the APA? If so, don't read my posts or put me in your ignore list, but as long as people ask about the APA, I will share my experiences! I believe that's the purpose of this forum!
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Don't know why you're getting hostile. My point was only that the APA must be doing something right, because people are willingly paying to play.

I also didn't say it was easy to start a pool league. It is easy to complain about it, but complaining doesn't solve anything. If you really want a better league, put the time and effort into growing one. If you are unwilling to make that commitment what does carping about the current situation do for you?

There are 50 APA bashing threads a week here. It's the red headed step child of the forum. All these threads travel the same road to no where and nothing changes. I am meerly suggesting that rather than complain, do something about it.

If there were a better game in town, I would be the first to join. I do play APA and I enjoy the night out. I am not in it to earn money, and I have no problem with someone earning a living providing me an outlet for my entertainment dollar.

Incidently, I don't have anyone on ignore, and I will continue to respond to posts that interest me. Maybe it is you who should put me on ignore.

:cool:
 
Baxter said:
It's not so simple when the market is cornered. How many average APA players do you think even know other pool leagues exist? I'm saying less than half, and being conservative at that. Do you think the APA is going to tell them, "Hey guys, you know you have a choice right?" I think not! Yes, other leagues could do more to expose themselves, but through what avenue would they reach the APA players? As already stated, most average APA players don't watch pool on tv or follow pool whatsoever. That makes it especially hard for any pool-related merchandise or products to be marketed towards them, unless it is through the APA! I agree with cuesmith on this one, and think that your logic and thought process is flawed Steve.
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If there was another league option for people to play available in any given area, they would be stupid to not market it in the pool rooms where people play APA. You would no doubt get some people from the local APA teams playing, and they would tell their friends and/or teammates. IF their product was that much better or more desireable or cheaper they would get their share of the business. And all the folks from APA would come screaming to their doors...

If they couldn't attract business enough to compete with the local APA league, they have no business being in business. Because all anyone has to do is to spend a few minutes here to realize how bad the APA is, right? 250,00 people across the country are dumb and stupid sheep, because a small group of people on an internet message board say so.
 
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gunzby said:
Good post.
I agree with you comments. A lot of people talk about the APA not putting enough into the pro's organizations. The thing about that is that they need to take care of themselves first. The sponsor money is a bonus and not a life raft.

I stopped playing in the APA because of work, but would have no problems having a dollar per player going to the men's and women's tournaments. This is of course so long as they don't set fire to that open door year over year.
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In a previous thread, many months ago, a poster suggested that all leagues (APA, BCA, TAP, VNEA, etc.) should have a box on their league application forms that a person could check if they wanted to DONATE a dollar (or more for that matter) to go to men's/women's pro tours. I do not understand why this wasn't thought of already and already put into place.

Maniac
 
Has anyone else noticed how much anger/frustration these APA threads seem to generate ;)???

Second only to a John Barton/Jack Justis thread!!!

Maniac
 
Why would anyone think that amateur pool players should be required to support the pros? Do amateur golfers pay to support the pros? Do little league players pay to support MLB?

It's up to the pros in pool to develop a product that will make people WANT to support them. They shouldn't depend on handouts from the weekly league players. If league players want to support the pros, they will. But they should NOT be forced into it.

The pros need to develop an effective marketing plan. The APA has given them a pretty good sized base of people interested in pool to target. But as has already been pointed out, most league players don't even know the names of a half a dozen pros. Why would they want to donate to something they know nothing about? And why should the pros expect them to do so?

Steve
 
I played APA one season, then I had the chance to play BCA. I did have fun doing both, but I see APA as a haven for sandbagging, which is not my style.

I won't play APA ever again. I know that I won't be missed, but then again I couldn't care less about that format.
 
pooltchr said:
Why would anyone think that amateur pool players should be required to support the pros? Do amateur golfers pay to support the pros? Do little league players pay to support MLB?

It's up to the pros in pool to develop a product that will make people WANT to support them. They shouldn't depend on handouts from the weekly league players. If league players want to support the pros, they will. But they should NOT be forced into it.

The pros need to develop an effective marketing plan. The APA has given them a pretty good sized base of people interested in pool to target. But as has already been pointed out, most league players don't even know the names of a half a dozen pros.
Why would they want to donate to something they know nothing about? And why should the pros expect them to do so?
Steve
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