dr_dave said:
Is this the link?
http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-9.pdf
How would you interpret my graph?
can't play without elbow drop!
- Thread starter PetToilet
- Start date
Is this the link?
http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-9.pdf
How would you interpret my graph?
Pete said:
Hi Pete: We certainly would not want the cue to hit our body before we strike the cueball. Things change after we strike the cueball.
The tie is not part of the body. Many players hit their chin in the middle of their stroke.....why?
Hitting your chest at the end of your stroke is just fine.....SPF=randyg
Thought I would add my 2 cents, maybe get some feedback as well.
About 5 years ago when I played regularly I took a lesson from Jerry Briesath while in Madison, WI - great teacher by the way. I was a very competitive regional player - I guess an "A" player. But I wanted to get better. We worked a little on simplifying my stroke, which involved shooting normal shots with no hitch and no elbow drop. Once I worked on this, I got the same if not more spin out of shots and increased my consistency 10% or so, which was huge in comparison. I went from that long, extended follow through (maybe 10" backswing and 10" or so follow through, just like golf) to not dropping my elbow where my chest would stop the follow through and maybe only follow through 4" - 5".
Fast forward 5 years, I quit playing due to work and family schedule, and have now started again and been playing 10 months or so. Finally feel like I'm pretty much back to my old self, maybe even learned a few new tricks. I've just recently been trying to incorporate keeping my elbow still again on normal shots, again for consistency, but like the OP I feel restricted somehow on the follow through, almost feel like I tighten up more that way than just letting my elbow collapse a little more. I've seen both styles on video, and it's just plain harder for me to follow through 4" or so required from not dropping my elbow, I just naturally want to keep extending the cue down the line. I'm 99% sure I call into category "B" mentioned above, I drop after contact and play at a decent enough level where I don't think the elbow drop is affecting my play. Just always looking to simplify things etc.
One other thing - I've noticed how many players appear to initiate their stroke with a sort of pumping action - sometimes slight, sometimes more pronounced. I'm thinking of Varner, Strickland, SVB, the filipino players, etc. I've really noticed that a lot of top players start back on their final stroke by dropping their hand slightly, then it rises somewhat on the backswing, then back to initial position on the follow through. The slight rise I'm sure is caused by the pendulum nature of the stroke, but the initial drop or relaxing of the arm adds rhythm to the stroke and almost feels like the forward press concept in golf. Can anyone comment on this? I notice I play "looser" or more relaxed when in this mode, but if I'm not feeling in line during a particular session if I go back to being a little more rigid and straight back/straight through I increase my pocketing percentage a little, and then sometimes get my confidence back or straighten out my alignment and loosen up again.
Scott
About 5 years ago when I played regularly I took a lesson from Jerry Briesath while in Madison, WI - great teacher by the way. I was a very competitive regional player - I guess an "A" player. But I wanted to get better. We worked a little on simplifying my stroke, which involved shooting normal shots with no hitch and no elbow drop. Once I worked on this, I got the same if not more spin out of shots and increased my consistency 10% or so, which was huge in comparison. I went from that long, extended follow through (maybe 10" backswing and 10" or so follow through, just like golf) to not dropping my elbow where my chest would stop the follow through and maybe only follow through 4" - 5".
Fast forward 5 years, I quit playing due to work and family schedule, and have now started again and been playing 10 months or so. Finally feel like I'm pretty much back to my old self, maybe even learned a few new tricks. I've just recently been trying to incorporate keeping my elbow still again on normal shots, again for consistency, but like the OP I feel restricted somehow on the follow through, almost feel like I tighten up more that way than just letting my elbow collapse a little more. I've seen both styles on video, and it's just plain harder for me to follow through 4" or so required from not dropping my elbow, I just naturally want to keep extending the cue down the line. I'm 99% sure I call into category "B" mentioned above, I drop after contact and play at a decent enough level where I don't think the elbow drop is affecting my play. Just always looking to simplify things etc.
One other thing - I've noticed how many players appear to initiate their stroke with a sort of pumping action - sometimes slight, sometimes more pronounced. I'm thinking of Varner, Strickland, SVB, the filipino players, etc. I've really noticed that a lot of top players start back on their final stroke by dropping their hand slightly, then it rises somewhat on the backswing, then back to initial position on the follow through. The slight rise I'm sure is caused by the pendulum nature of the stroke, but the initial drop or relaxing of the arm adds rhythm to the stroke and almost feels like the forward press concept in golf. Can anyone comment on this? I notice I play "looser" or more relaxed when in this mode, but if I'm not feeling in line during a particular session if I go back to being a little more rigid and straight back/straight through I increase my pocketing percentage a little, and then sometimes get my confidence back or straighten out my alignment and loosen up again.
Scott
scottjen26 said:
If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying that you usually just play loose, but when you feel you are struggling, you force yourself to do what you already know has the potential of bringing you a 10% improvement in your game.
Why not PRACTICE what you know can make you a better player, to the point that it becomes a habit, and along the way, becomes your natural stroke. If you found a stroke that can give you that kind of improvement, why in the hell would you not want to use it all the time????????
Steve
pooltchr said:
There are elements in your answer that seems to echo a bit of what Mark Wilson had me do to improve my stroke. In particular, he told me I was too loose, and that I needed to tighten up my stroke a bit. He gave me specific things to change and showed me how to change them, and also a process to make them happen. He asked me to give his changes ten days to work. They worked immediately for me; after about 5 hours of practice, they became ingrained and second nature. My game took a jump right after that, simply because I was potting more balls. That being said, he was not suggesting I become rigid, and stiff, just a bit tighter. That remains to this day. Even so, or perhaps, especially so, when I get in dead punch, dead stroke, there is a fluidity to my movements that isn't there when I'm shooting the habitual way. At those times, everything seems to flow, and I pot balls and get shape apparently effortlessly. My stroke definitely comes out in those moments. One friend the other day said I make everything look so easy. I only wish that were true all the time. My opinion, FWIW, at this time is those habits Mark helped ingrain in me serve as a ground floor, as a basis if you will, to get me into the zone. Once I'm there, for a few minutes only, perhaps, fluidity, touch, ease just happens. I know the feeling, as I'm sure you do, and when that feeling leaves, I still have the solid habits he helped me build. My goal is total fluidity, not rigidity. That 10% improvement you talk about is very real, but should, IMHO, be only the beginning.
BTW, when I follow through on just about all shots, the cue shaft continues in a straight line, and yes, I've noticed on just about any power shot my elbow drops significantly. However, my stroke continues to remain straight.
The shoulder is obviously involved in that. Why kill it? Let it happen. It's one continuous movement. And also, it just feels great when everything is working as it's supposed to.
Minimum or no elbow drop for probably 95% of the shots, significant elbow drop when needed.
My 2 cents worth.
Flex
"It's what we learn (after we know it all) that counts".
Flex,
You are correct. When I say tighten up, I'm not talking about being stiff or rigid. A good pool stroke requires the muscles to be relaxed. I just happen to believe, and have found it true in my game, that the fewer muscles I get involved in my stroke, the less there is to go wrong. So I practice a pendilum stroke exclusively. I also don't pay attention to elbow drop when I am playing, but have been told after a match that there is little or no movement during competition. (I don't want my brain worrying about my elbow when I am competing!) So Mark gave you some very good advice. WE PLAY THE WAY WE PRACTICE. If you want to play with a smooth stroke, you need to practice it. Then it will be there when you need it. I don't have time to go looking for it once I'm in a match.
Mark is a good instructor.
Steve
You are correct. When I say tighten up, I'm not talking about being stiff or rigid. A good pool stroke requires the muscles to be relaxed. I just happen to believe, and have found it true in my game, that the fewer muscles I get involved in my stroke, the less there is to go wrong. So I practice a pendilum stroke exclusively. I also don't pay attention to elbow drop when I am playing, but have been told after a match that there is little or no movement during competition. (I don't want my brain worrying about my elbow when I am competing!) So Mark gave you some very good advice. WE PLAY THE WAY WE PRACTICE. If you want to play with a smooth stroke, you need to practice it. Then it will be there when you need it. I don't have time to go looking for it once I'm in a match.
Mark is a good instructor.
Steve
Steve and Flex,
Thanks for the comments, I probably didn't explain very well, trying to be brief (not easy for me, as I don't like to misspeak- case in point) and wasn't clear.
Been playing 15 years, 5 year break, now playing for almost a year again, and pretty much back to where I was, which is good finally. Lot of work to get back to that point and get confidence up. I used to play somewhat loose, a lot of pumping and gyrating going on ala some of the Filipinos (so I thought), but big stroke and when I was in stroke I was pretty decent player. But taking the summers off in Wisconsin, it would always take me a month or two to get back into it.
Took a lesson with Jerry Briesath, and he said I was already a solid player, just needed some tweaking and fine tuning. So he tried to integrate what he called "chin lock" - really approaching the ball from behind the line of the shot instead of sliding into it like I sometimes did - and an extra look or two at the object ball to firm up the alignment, etc. He also tried to get me to minimize my elbow drop, again just for that bit of consistency. I worked on all of those things, and my game improved in about a week or two.
So now I find myself relearning everything again, and finally got there, mostly at least. So I spend 30 minutes or so every practice session just shooting balls corner to corner, about 2 1/2 diamonds from both pockets to leave distance between the CB and OB, and just working on a nice, smooth but firmly accelerating stop shot. Trying to hit the heart of the pocket, with a nice firm "thwap", and no rotation on the CB. After a few sets of 10 into both pockets, I do the same with draw shots and follow which require a little firmer stroke. In my best session I hit 160 balls and only missed 3 or 4, drew every ball back to the end rail and back out a diamond or two with a firm stroke (not everything I had, just nice and solid) and following the follow shots up and back down the table with that same fluid stroke. It has given me confidence to shoot those same, 3' - 6' long shots in a match with precision and power.
However, it still doesn't feel super comfortable, and when I concentrate on not dropping my elbow (post contact) I feel like my hand is slamming into my chest, and the tip is dipping to the table, and I feel like I am tighter on the cue. So for power shots, I still like to not worry as much about it and just let the cue extend down the line. I know you don't have to do that, just feels more natural for me. So, long winded answer is I am working on it, but when playing a match I'd rather run out with my elbow dropping than hit the perfect stroke and not get the intended result - for now at least...
My original addition to the post though, which I haven't seen discussed, is the initiation of the stroke that a lot of top players have. At the final pause, before starting the final stroke, instead of pulling the cue straight back and then straight forward, then almost drop their hand and/or elbow a bit, then the butt of the cue raises on the backswing, then comes straight through. It's a mini-pump almost, and I've been noticing a lot of people do this. Like I said, this is what I refer to as my "loose", fluid style - I go through my pre shot routine, get set, then feel a more looser back and forth motion, instead of trying to be robotic and take the cue perfectly straight back on a straight line. Again, I see Varner, SVB, Strickland, a ton of great players doing this. Can you comment on this? Is it just an optical illusion? It is caused by the mechanics of the stroke? It's weird, because I had a top player in the area comment on my game a little while ago and said "You look like you're hitting the ball well, you got that little pump going". So I assumed that pump type action was equated to being loose and free with the stroke, while still being straight, but maybe I'm wrong?
Sorry, long post, but I'm all about learning, and will do whatever it takes to get better including rebuilding my stroke if need be. That's what's cool about this game, I played 15 years at a pretty high level, and my journey this time around for the past 10 months or so has been a compressed version of those 15 years but with new stuff thrown in - new kicking systems I've learned (which are working great by the way), different stroke, different outlook on the game, oh yea, and all the information out there on the internet. That's what keeps me coming back for more!
Scott
Thanks for the comments, I probably didn't explain very well, trying to be brief (not easy for me, as I don't like to misspeak- case in point) and wasn't clear.
Been playing 15 years, 5 year break, now playing for almost a year again, and pretty much back to where I was, which is good finally. Lot of work to get back to that point and get confidence up. I used to play somewhat loose, a lot of pumping and gyrating going on ala some of the Filipinos (so I thought), but big stroke and when I was in stroke I was pretty decent player. But taking the summers off in Wisconsin, it would always take me a month or two to get back into it.
Took a lesson with Jerry Briesath, and he said I was already a solid player, just needed some tweaking and fine tuning. So he tried to integrate what he called "chin lock" - really approaching the ball from behind the line of the shot instead of sliding into it like I sometimes did - and an extra look or two at the object ball to firm up the alignment, etc. He also tried to get me to minimize my elbow drop, again just for that bit of consistency. I worked on all of those things, and my game improved in about a week or two.
So now I find myself relearning everything again, and finally got there, mostly at least. So I spend 30 minutes or so every practice session just shooting balls corner to corner, about 2 1/2 diamonds from both pockets to leave distance between the CB and OB, and just working on a nice, smooth but firmly accelerating stop shot. Trying to hit the heart of the pocket, with a nice firm "thwap", and no rotation on the CB. After a few sets of 10 into both pockets, I do the same with draw shots and follow which require a little firmer stroke. In my best session I hit 160 balls and only missed 3 or 4, drew every ball back to the end rail and back out a diamond or two with a firm stroke (not everything I had, just nice and solid) and following the follow shots up and back down the table with that same fluid stroke. It has given me confidence to shoot those same, 3' - 6' long shots in a match with precision and power.
However, it still doesn't feel super comfortable, and when I concentrate on not dropping my elbow (post contact) I feel like my hand is slamming into my chest, and the tip is dipping to the table, and I feel like I am tighter on the cue. So for power shots, I still like to not worry as much about it and just let the cue extend down the line. I know you don't have to do that, just feels more natural for me. So, long winded answer is I am working on it, but when playing a match I'd rather run out with my elbow dropping than hit the perfect stroke and not get the intended result - for now at least...
My original addition to the post though, which I haven't seen discussed, is the initiation of the stroke that a lot of top players have. At the final pause, before starting the final stroke, instead of pulling the cue straight back and then straight forward, then almost drop their hand and/or elbow a bit, then the butt of the cue raises on the backswing, then comes straight through. It's a mini-pump almost, and I've been noticing a lot of people do this. Like I said, this is what I refer to as my "loose", fluid style - I go through my pre shot routine, get set, then feel a more looser back and forth motion, instead of trying to be robotic and take the cue perfectly straight back on a straight line. Again, I see Varner, SVB, Strickland, a ton of great players doing this. Can you comment on this? Is it just an optical illusion? It is caused by the mechanics of the stroke? It's weird, because I had a top player in the area comment on my game a little while ago and said "You look like you're hitting the ball well, you got that little pump going". So I assumed that pump type action was equated to being loose and free with the stroke, while still being straight, but maybe I'm wrong?
Sorry, long post, but I'm all about learning, and will do whatever it takes to get better including rebuilding my stroke if need be. That's what's cool about this game, I played 15 years at a pretty high level, and my journey this time around for the past 10 months or so has been a compressed version of those 15 years but with new stuff thrown in - new kicking systems I've learned (which are working great by the way), different stroke, different outlook on the game, oh yea, and all the information out there on the internet. That's what keeps me coming back for more!
Scott
Scottjen,
There is one thing that you mention in your post that I really understand: when the pressure is on and you feel you need to really go through the ball and let your elbow drop, because you'd rather make the ball that have the "perfect" stroke... it might just be that the "perfect" stroke for that situation, at least for you, is the one you are executing. If that's the one that delivers for you, why change it?
As for the little pump action in your stroke, I've also noticed plenty of players, especially Filipinos, who have that little pump on their final stroke. Where they picked it up, I don't know. Perhaps it kicks in only on the final stroke and gives them the consistency they need. Why not ask those who play very well and do that why they do it? I'm open to all these little things, it may turn out that one's game can improve a bit by adopting them, just like trying to keep the elbow still.
BTW, I don't consciously try to keep my elbow from dropping. In many cases it simply doesn't drop. But if a shot needs that extra oomph, for some reason it comes out.
Can't wait to read Steve's reply to your excellent post.
Flex
There is one thing that you mention in your post that I really understand: when the pressure is on and you feel you need to really go through the ball and let your elbow drop, because you'd rather make the ball that have the "perfect" stroke... it might just be that the "perfect" stroke for that situation, at least for you, is the one you are executing. If that's the one that delivers for you, why change it?
As for the little pump action in your stroke, I've also noticed plenty of players, especially Filipinos, who have that little pump on their final stroke. Where they picked it up, I don't know. Perhaps it kicks in only on the final stroke and gives them the consistency they need. Why not ask those who play very well and do that why they do it? I'm open to all these little things, it may turn out that one's game can improve a bit by adopting them, just like trying to keep the elbow still.
BTW, I don't consciously try to keep my elbow from dropping. In many cases it simply doesn't drop. But if a shot needs that extra oomph, for some reason it comes out.
Can't wait to read Steve's reply to your excellent post.
Flex
Scott,
Again, I can only offer what works for me, and has worked for many students as well.
Consistency comes from doing the same thing, the same way, every time. That is the primary reason I believe in having one stroke to use for all of my shots. Soft, hard, in between, they all end up with my hand resting against the side of my chest. I even use a pendilum stroke for my break shot.
I also believe strongly in the KISS theory of doing anything. My pool stroke comes down to just two muscle groups (one at a time).
I had over 30 years of playing before I was introduced to this stroke. I also had a few months of frustration as I tried to work it into a habit. But I can honestly say my game wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today without that consistent, repeatable stroke.
That being said, what works for me, may or may not work for you. You know from experience that it has helped you in the past. It's up to you if you use it some of the time, most of the time, or all of the time. How consistent do you want to be?
Steve
Again, I can only offer what works for me, and has worked for many students as well.
Consistency comes from doing the same thing, the same way, every time. That is the primary reason I believe in having one stroke to use for all of my shots. Soft, hard, in between, they all end up with my hand resting against the side of my chest. I even use a pendilum stroke for my break shot.
I also believe strongly in the KISS theory of doing anything. My pool stroke comes down to just two muscle groups (one at a time).
I had over 30 years of playing before I was introduced to this stroke. I also had a few months of frustration as I tried to work it into a habit. But I can honestly say my game wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today without that consistent, repeatable stroke.
That being said, what works for me, may or may not work for you. You know from experience that it has helped you in the past. It's up to you if you use it some of the time, most of the time, or all of the time. How consistent do you want to be?
Steve
Thanks Flex for the comments.
Steve, I hear you, believe me, KISS rules in most things. But the reality is very few pro players use a pendulum stroke on the break (normal break, not soft break), obviously sacrificing control and consistency for power. There are all sorts of crazy styles out there, although again I see where you are coming from.
But since you are a certified instructor, and study the game and have seen many students, can you or someone else here explain the pump action I described on the final stroke? As Flex verified, a lot of top players have it, but I haven't seen it described anywhere in an article, book, etc. I started doing it sort of unconsciously, didn't pay attention to it years ago when I played but I'm really studying my game these days. It seems to add some rhythm to my stroke, enables that "loose" feeling, and prevents some hesitancy or snatch/hit impulses, especially under tight conditions. And again, a lot of top players seem to do it, and some local top players have commented on it, so it must be reality. I know it doesn't technically follow the KISS principle - straight back and straight through would - but if everyone's doing it... Some sort of guarded secret or just an anomoly shared by many?
Thanks,
Scott
Steve, I hear you, believe me, KISS rules in most things. But the reality is very few pro players use a pendulum stroke on the break (normal break, not soft break), obviously sacrificing control and consistency for power. There are all sorts of crazy styles out there, although again I see where you are coming from.
But since you are a certified instructor, and study the game and have seen many students, can you or someone else here explain the pump action I described on the final stroke? As Flex verified, a lot of top players have it, but I haven't seen it described anywhere in an article, book, etc. I started doing it sort of unconsciously, didn't pay attention to it years ago when I played but I'm really studying my game these days. It seems to add some rhythm to my stroke, enables that "loose" feeling, and prevents some hesitancy or snatch/hit impulses, especially under tight conditions. And again, a lot of top players seem to do it, and some local top players have commented on it, so it must be reality. I know it doesn't technically follow the KISS principle - straight back and straight through would - but if everyone's doing it... Some sort of guarded secret or just an anomoly shared by many?
Thanks,
Scott
The pump stroke I see is their practice stroke. On the last stroke, I see slow pull and smooth follow.scottjen26 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3u5KbyXOc
Davenport has the smoothest follow I saw in person outside of Hall and Souquet.
Johnny, you can`t get a very good follow thru unless you drop it...The only time it won`t drop is when you use back spin then it`s proper, becaise your tip will hit the table...You can not get a full extension unless you drop the elbow.Ask the pros. I have allready talk with a few of them and they agree...\
Ronv
Ronv
Can anyone tell me if I'm dropping my elbow after or before contact?
Here's a link to my video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4LH_xp8PGA
Here's a link to my video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4LH_xp8PGA
stroke deceleration
Regards,
Dave
At the top of the 2nd page of TP A.9, I explain how to interpret the graphs. With your graph, the forward acceleration is clearly negative before impact. This means your cue is decelerating (i.e., slowing down) as it approaches the tip. This is not typical or generally recommended (see HSV B.40). Possible causes are not "finishing" the shot or having your grip hand too far forward.JohnnyP said:
Regards,
Dave
RonV said:
You have made some interesting observations, but they lead me to a few questions...
How much follow thru is very good follow thru? If I have a 6 inch follow thru, and decide to make it 10 inches, will it give me a better stroke? Since the tip and the cue ball separate in 1/1000 of a second, how does a longer follow thru change the reaction of the balls? What is "full extention" and what is the benefit of it in my stroke? How much "follow thru" is necessary to draw the cue ball? Is it the same as you need for follow? If the tip doesn't hit the table when you finish your stroke, where does it end?
Thanks
Steve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwHgXpxQqA&feature=relatedpooltchr said:
Notice the tip does not hit the cloth?
6 inches is plenty I think.
pooltchr said:
Personally, I would think that your follow through should be as long as it is natural for *you*. I wouldn't put much thought into specific 6 inches or 10 inches etc... A good follow through, in my opinion, should go as far as it can naturally go. If you stop it short or push it longer than you are using muscles that you shouldn't be using while stroking your cue.
MULLY