Challenge of Champions dump

RobertaAgnor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It would make for a pretty quiet discussion forum if folks couldn't discuss what the big names in the industry did, unless those being discussed participated on the forum.

If we follow that line of reasoning, we couldn't discuss any pro save for Mike D, CJ, John Brumback and Chris Bartram. A few others I may have missed.

And while I understand your distaste for this and other similar discussions, (and i share that view upon occasion, tho not necessarily this time) if the forum only allowed sunshine and roses, it wouldn't really be a discussion board. It would be a fan club.

This discussion is perfectly fine with me since it is pool related although an old incident. :smile:
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
I get that point. The same could be said of the accusations against Buddy. Since he doesn't post here but does on Facebook, people should be posting this stuff there on his page where he could respond if he chose to instead of here.


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This is a billiard forum ...different topics can be discussed .
Is there a certain criteria for what can be discussed here??

I think if this post was out of line ,it would've got stopped along time ago.
Matter fact,if 2 individuals wouldn't of posted so much it would've died already.

Btw ...I bet the Pope has something to hide,doesn't make him a bad guy.:smile:
 

jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
I get that point. The same could be said of the accusations against Buddy. Since he doesn't post here but does on Facebook, people should be posting this stuff there on his page where he could respond if he chose to instead of here.

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Sorry Roberta, but that makes absolutely zero sense.

Do you mean that we should remove all of Buddy's, or anyone else's, videos as well as any references to his past pool achievements, and general discussions also, or only the postings that you find controversial and upsetting ? Life just doesn't work that way or we would have newspapers, TV, and other media limited to only being able to discuss backyard events? And what about discussing deceased people? I assume that you would want to prohibit that also being that dead people cannot respond either. ;)

Besides, would anyone actually expect that Buddy would respond in any manner other than make a allegorical denial, regardless of whether the accusations are founded or not?

PS: Why do you feel the need to run "cover" for anyone here?

J
 

mia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...where he could respond if he chose to instead of here.


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He could respond HERE... if he chose to.

No one told Buddy he wasn't allowed to post here. He's more than welcome to do so. But telling an open forum of people that they can't or shouldn't discuss something because one person isn't a member here or isn't involving himself in the conversation is ridiculous.
 

RobertaAgnor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry Roberta, but that makes absolutely zero sense.

Do you mean that we should remove all of Buddy's, or anyone else's, videos as well as any references to his past pool achievements, and general discussions also, or only the postings that you find controversial and upsetting ? Life just doesn't work that way or we would have newspapers, TV, and other media limited to only being able to discuss backyard events? And what about discussing deceased people? I assume that you would want to prohibit that also being that dead people cannot respond either. ;)

Besides, would anyone actually expect that Buddy would respond in any manner other than make a allegorical denial, regardless of whether the accusations are founded or not?

PS: Why do you feel the need to run "cover" for anyone here?

J

I don't feel the need to cover for anyone, I give my opinion just like everyone else does. I will again say my point for saying that was in response to someone saying JB shouldn't have talked behind Wilson's back on Facebook & that he should've said it here where Wilson could see it. I said the same thing could be said about people talking about Buddy here where he doesn't see it.

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RobertaAgnor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a billiard forum ...different topics can be discussed .
Is there a certain criteria for what can be discussed here??

I think if this post was out of line ,it would've got stopped along time ago.
Matter fact,if 2 individuals wouldn't of posted so much it would've died already.

Btw ...I bet the Pope has something to hide,doesn't make him a bad guy.:smile:

Again, what I said was in direct response to something else & the irony of it.

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RobertaAgnor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He could respond HERE... if he chose to.

No one told Buddy he wasn't allowed to post here. He's more than welcome to do so. But telling an open forum of people that they can't or shouldn't discuss something because one person isn't a member here or isn't involving himself in the conversation is ridiculous.

Again, read the posts I made & you'll see I was making a point about irony. I never said I thought talking about it here was wrong.

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PINKLADY

ICNBB
Silver Member
Well, Buddy Hall has never participated here or anywhere online that I know of. We only have had two posts where the posters said that they asked Buddy directly and Buddy said it wasn't a dump.

I don't know what else he could say to "clear his name" that would actually mean anything to those who already think that it was a dump. What else can he say that would change anyone's mind?

I guess I can't get over Rempe/Lebron being 5:4 and then David Howard winning the first 3 racks with tough outs against Lebron if they both planned to dump against him.

It very well COULD be that they talked about it and the plan all along was to make every set close.

i thought the irony, was JB throwing a "voluntary ban" on the table - when he'd recently called for Wilson's firing on FaceBook, and it was proposed by someone last summer that part of his/Lou's bet include "same".

had that happened, this thread would have died 400 posts ago.
 

smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
Remember that the fix involved several players.If Buddy were to admit to his part he is also squealing on the others.Not many people would betray they're friends in this way just to come clean themselves.

As I said before,its not the end of the world but what happened happened.We all know lots of shady stuff happened back in the day.For myself I can watch the tapes and chuckle about it.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i thought the irony, was JB throwing a "voluntary ban" on the table - when he'd recently called for Wilson's firing on FaceBook, and it was proposed by someone last summer that part of his/Lou's bet include "same".

had that happened, this thread would have died 400 posts ago.

The irony for me is stealing designs or knock-off is ok to him. And the dump didn't really hurt pool as he maintained.
Why the big deal then?
And he said he could be wrong but kept arguing every freaking detail.
Then he went to a trial argument.
Like he's a lawyer.
 

Johnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
now that sheldon cooper, my bad i mean john barton has been banned i will add my 2 cents here! to buddy's defense i think that the dump looked painfully obvious because he never needed to dump b4 to make $, i remember jay posting on here a few years ago that the guy was in dead stroke for nearly 20 years straight and rarely if ever lost any gambling matches! it's almost like he forgot he was supposed to lose and some1 had to remind him!
 

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When the World 9 Ball Championships was held in Cardiff every year there was a betting booth on site. I will not name the players involved but there were certainly some engineered results. A top Chinese player dropping racks to get a correct score, a notable US pro playing shots that confused the commentator. Another match deal set up by a prominent Canadian all ensured that the bookmakers took a hit for around $70k on site. But they laughed it off because their takings at Head Office far exceeded that.The reason that I mention this is because the C o C happened 20 years ago and Cardiff more than 10 years ago.
Everyone who might want to know about the Big Dump presumably knows about it now.
So isn't it time we drew a line under these infamous chapters and moved on.

There is a new Sheriff in town and with Deputy Doc he is running the outlaws off his land and taking the game out of The Last Chance Saloon.
 

KoolKat9Lives

Taught 'em all I know
Silver Member
...snip...
Everyone who might want to know about the Big Dump presumably knows about it now.
So isn't it time we drew a line under these infamous chapters and moved on.
There is a new Sheriff in town and with Deputy Doc he is running the outlaws off his land and taking the game out of The Last Chance Saloon.


Well said. Buddy's taken his public beating long enough IMO (while the alleged other 6 have taken a fraction). I too have confidence that the promoters' new stance will reduce shenanigans. Let's hope everyone pulls together and plays on the square to boost pro pool. Sponsorship $$$ will follow and more doors will open.
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When the World 9 Ball Championships was held in Cardiff every year there was a betting booth on site. I will not name the players involved but there were certainly some engineered results. A top Chinese player dropping racks to get a correct score, a notable US pro playing shots that confused the commentator. Another match deal set up by a prominent Canadian all ensured that the bookmakers took a hit for around $70k on site. But they laughed it off because their takings at Head Office far exceeded that.The reason that I mention this is because the C o C happened 20 years ago and Cardiff more than 10 years ago.
Everyone who might want to know about the Big Dump presumably knows about it now.
So isn't it time we drew a line under these infamous chapters and moved on.

There is a new Sheriff in town and with Deputy Doc he is running the outlaws off his land and taking the game out of The Last Chance Saloon.

Remember it well Doug. Oddly enough I think it took Matchroom two more years to change the preliminary format and meanwhile i doubt the books put out lines on a player after he was 'through'

I did not participate in the shenanigans in any way.
 

KoolKat9Lives

Taught 'em all I know
Silver Member
...

I did not participate in the shenanigans in any way.

Sure. That's what they all say. ;)

A friend of an acquaintance of mine, that knew a friend, told me you once did a BIG TIME dump. Yup. You let your Grandpa win a game of checkers for dishwashing duty. Grandma, on the sly, told you she'd do the dishes so he'd be in a romantic mood.
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
The Real Question to be Discussed

I first want to say that I am a spurt poster because of Slick Willie, self aggrandizing posters like CJ, JB and a few others that use gullible AZB’ers as a sales ploy drives me nuts. I personally think all those advertisements should not be allowed. I found that if I wait long enough, eventually my 2 cents opinion will be stated by someone.

I also want people to know that I am able to respect ones game but that doesn't mean I need to respect the person.

My opinion as to why the 1991 COC has affected the pool that we know today. First some history for you younger folks.

In November 1989, Steve Wynn opened the newest LV Casino, the Mirage. This was the new kid on the block, the casino that would create huge changes in the LV landscape. This was the ultimate casino of all casinos.

Pool had been doing a fair business on ESPN and seemed to be on the spiral upward after the “Color of Money” came out in 1986. This was not missed by the Mirage, Matt Braun, Jay Helfert and others. The Mirage, for relatively cheap, could get their own ESPN 7 episode broadcast featuring the best players lured in by $50,000, winner take all. This would be the largest prize ever given in pool. To further enhance this event, for the first time ever, pool was going to be on the betting board in the Mirage sports book. They were making an all out effort at capturing the railbirds of pool.

There are followers in every sport. I just break it down into two categories, railbirds (the bettors) and the fans (those that enjoy the intrinsic value of the game). The Mirage was definitely after the railbirds to enhance their gambling revenue. We all knew back then that pool players and the railbirds were gamblers. What could be more perfect?

So the 1991 COC happened. I have NEVER heard anyone involved say that it WAS NOT a fix (until this thread where Buddy says that to a third party). I have heard a from a learned and well respected member of the AZ community stating that unequivocally, it was a fix and willing to throw $10,000 behind it. The following year, Matt Braun, at the players’ meeting laid down the fix law. That tells me he knew it happened. Steve Wynn, the most important cog in the wheel, is quoted (sorry, I can’t give you a cite but I did look for it, maybe Jay can back me up?) promised that pool would never ever be on the board or in the sports book of any LV casino that he is involved in. That tells me that he knew business was being done. Yes, in the pool world, business was a normal occurrence at the time. Not so in LV.

Did Wynn want to conjure up all sorts of bad publicity by prosecution? I think not. According to Jay, what the Mirage lost was a drop in the bucket and not worth the negative outcome.

Contrary to the red herrings that CJ keeps throwing out about no events were affected in LV, the real crux of the matter is that pool got to be on the big betting board for one time and removed because there was something “not above board” going on. I agree that the Mirage blew it by putting the 20 to 1 odds on LeBron, or maybe it was just a marketing thing since it was a capped bet. For CJ to say he can’t believe it happened is ludicrous. It was, it happened.

CJ, yes, events kept going on in LV but that isn’t the question here. The real question is; If pool had been allowed to be continued as an entity for betting in the sports book, would it have helped evolve the sport into a viable, money-making professional industry?

Should I be starting this in its own thread?
 
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