That would be a different animal. I'm in no way condoning the fix, if that was what it was. I'm just saying this one thing should not be what Buddy is remember by. People that know me know I feel players who dump are just thieves and draw no line.. I also feel, anything you can do to a casino is legal. I admire anyone who figures out how to beat the thieving casino's.
Challenge of Champions dump
- Thread starter hang-the-9
- Start date
That would be a different animal. I'm in no way condoning the fix, if that was what it was. I'm just saying this one thing should not be what Buddy is remember by. People that know me know I feel players who dump are just thieves and draw no line.. I also feel, anything you can do to a casino is legal. I admire anyone who figures out how to beat the thieving casino's.
I don't care for casinos much either. Everything is in their favor, but they don't make you gamble.
"Vegas" kept booking the matches and there was no investigation, just bogus rumors
The fact of the matter is "Vegas" kept booking the matches and there was no investigation, just rumors (unfounded) of one. I played in the next Challenge of Champions and they made me a 7/2 underdog against the field - I could have bet on myself if I'd chosen to, but incidentally I've never bet on or against myself in tournaments.
The real reason all the evil rumors were started back then was NOT because of Buddy, or Mike, it was to try to discredit Matt Braun's 'Challenge of Champions'.....and you see how that worked out, the 'Challenge of Champions is still on after 22 more years......and that's the facts.
The fact of the matter is "Vegas" kept booking the matches and there was no investigation, just rumors (unfounded) of one. I played in the next Challenge of Champions and they made me a 7/2 underdog against the field - I could have bet on myself if I'd chosen to, but incidentally I've never bet on or against myself in tournaments.
The real reason all the evil rumors were started back then was NOT because of Buddy, or Mike, it was to try to discredit Matt Braun's 'Challenge of Champions'.....and you see how that worked out, the 'Challenge of Champions is still on after 22 more years......and that's the facts.
it was actually Mike Lebron dressed up as Earl Strickland that ran the 11 racks
Yes, it was actually Mike Lebron dressed up perfectly as Earl Strickland that ran the 11 racks......although ironically because of the lawsuit it was Earl, not Mike that received the million dollar annuity.......rumor has it that Buddy Hall may have been given $50k by Earl, but that's another story.
Yes, it was actually Mike Lebron dressed up perfectly as Earl Strickland that ran the 11 racks......although ironically because of the lawsuit it was Earl, not Mike that received the million dollar annuity.......rumor has it that Buddy Hall may have been given $50k by Earl, but that's another story.
Yes, it was actually Mike Lebron dressed up perfectly as Earl Strickland that ran the 11 racks......although ironically because of the lawsuit it was Earl, not Mike that received the million dollar annuity.......rumor has it that Buddy Hall may have been given $50k by Earl, but that's another story.
Those are as good as the others you're spinning.:wink:
FWIW I think that sports betting is not really betting against the casino is it? I thought it was more along the lines of them booking the bets and simply using the money from the losing bets to cover the winning bets and taking their cut for doing the booking.
I guess they could get caught in situations where they end up having to cover payouts in excess of what they took in from the losers but generally doesn't it pretty much balance out for the bookie?
FTR I know almost nothing about bookies and booking bets. Just what I read and see in the movies. I know bookies can be good action though in the pool room
FWIW I think that sports betting is not really betting against the casino is it? I thought it was more along the lines of them booking the bets and simply using the money from the losing bets to cover the winning bets and taking their cut for doing the booking.
I guess they could get caught in situations where they end up having to cover payouts in excess of what they took in from the losers but generally doesn't it pretty much balance out for the bookie?
FTR I know almost nothing about bookies and booking bets. Just what I read and see in the movies. I know bookies can be good action though in the pool room
No, if they set a firm line, they are booking it. The other way would be paramutual betting, like horseracing. In that case the odds on Lebron (or anyone) where lots of bets were being placed would drop accordingly. It was the firm long odds that the alleged dump took advantage of.
Fair enough but when and why did Vegas stop allowing bets on pool tourneys?
Also there would have been a money trail...
Ok. I get it now. But they do change the lines according to what's been bet am I right?
I seem to remember that was part of the story of Billy Walters (?? forgot his name) the big sports bettor who "pushes" the line around by having a series of people place bets for him at various sports books.
I can only guess that the why would be because betting on pool is small time compared to what Vegas does on mainstream sports.
Probably not worth their time.
Beyond that I don't think that there is a bookie convention where they all decide what they will and won't book bets on. Let's say that there was a dump....I doubt that this would have made much of a ripple.
Also, honestly does anyone really believe that the casino is going to take it like that if they really felt they were ripped off?
Jay claims the amount was like 40k. If I go into the casino and steal 40k in chips then I am going to jail at the least.
Pool players are of course capable of anything but I sincerely doubt that 7 of the very best players in the world at the time would have colluded. Further more I triple believe that IF Earl Strickland had indeed been asked to be a part of it and refused that he would have then told the world about it at some point between then and now.
I think all of these men had a lot more to lose by doing this and the reward was paltry in comparison. 7 players at the top of their game, known by fans across the world...colluding to each win a couple extra thousand....in a situation that requires them all to keep it secret when they would have to depend on many others beyond themselves?
So let's assume that each player and 1-2 people they know were in on it to lay bets on Lebron? That's 14-21 people now conspiring together to win a few thousand more than they had. I am going to assume that it's illegal in Nevada to "fix" a game. It's probably a federal felony as well.
So these guys would risk prison time for what amounted to a few thousand each?
I don't buy it. I just don't.
Furthermore, I can't see Buddy laying down. I read his book and I know him and from what I gathered he was the type who wanted the win more than the money.
So until there is more proof than hearsay, I land on the side of didn't happen.
Yup. Racketeering. (Sp?)
We know a bit about that up here.
But ya never know. People do some crazy shit for money.
The casino can change odds on future bets, but if you got your bet down at 20-1, it stays there for that bet. They probably got a lot of bets and later lowered the odds(on Lebron). Now in paramutual racing you may place a bet when the odds on your horse are 20-1, but you don't necessarily get 20-1, you get whatever the odds are after all of the betting in your pool (win pool for example) is done.
This event and the alleged dump have been discussed many times over the years here and on onepocket.org. The overwhelming consensus has been that a dump did take place. Why, with these latest threads, several are now vehemently denying it, I have no idea.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=346132
In the above link a poster named Lucky_Lew66 says:
"what was so bad about that match,they were both gentlemen and didnt break anything ,when you know they wanted to, hey for $50 K straight in gets to looking tough i am sure, that was a big prize fund for them at that time, they didnt do anything embarrassing in my opinion, nothing that Golfers,bowlers,Tennis players, havent done when playing for big cash."
To which Sjm responded:
"To my knowledge, this is the first defense ever offered for the participants in the twenty two years since it happened, and I expect it will the last.
The players, themselves, were caught having made sidebets on Mike LeBron and the Mirage, reportedly, refused to pay on some of them, and no Las Vegas casino has ever made pool a bettable event again in their sports book. Those who participated in this dump disgraced our sport. Whether disgracing one's sport is embarrassing or not is possibly debatable, but the lack of integrity here is not.
Jay Helfert, tournament referee at that event has posted about how, even though he could see the dump in front of his very eyes, the rules did not give him the power to do anything about it."
Sjm also posted a link to a onepocket.org thread on the subject:
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6601
This is indeed an old, sad subject that most would like to forget.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=346132
In the above link a poster named Lucky_Lew66 says:
"what was so bad about that match,they were both gentlemen and didnt break anything ,when you know they wanted to, hey for $50 K straight in gets to looking tough i am sure, that was a big prize fund for them at that time, they didnt do anything embarrassing in my opinion, nothing that Golfers,bowlers,Tennis players, havent done when playing for big cash."
To which Sjm responded:
"To my knowledge, this is the first defense ever offered for the participants in the twenty two years since it happened, and I expect it will the last.
The players, themselves, were caught having made sidebets on Mike LeBron and the Mirage, reportedly, refused to pay on some of them, and no Las Vegas casino has ever made pool a bettable event again in their sports book. Those who participated in this dump disgraced our sport. Whether disgracing one's sport is embarrassing or not is possibly debatable, but the lack of integrity here is not.
Jay Helfert, tournament referee at that event has posted about how, even though he could see the dump in front of his very eyes, the rules did not give him the power to do anything about it."
Sjm also posted a link to a onepocket.org thread on the subject:
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6601
This is indeed an old, sad subject that most would like to forget.
Mike Lebron's victory had no negative effects, and there was never any investigation
Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc.
Like I stated, when I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' at the Mirage in Las Vegas they were still booking the matches and this was AFTER the 1991 'Challenge of Champions' so I believe the truth is obvious......the Mike Lebron victory had no negative effects, and there was never any investigation (by IRS or the Nevada Gambling Commission) into any "foul" play.
Slandering anyone's good name 23 years later over something that's just "hearsay" is not only wrong, it's un American......we all have Constitutional Rights and one of them is we're innocent until proven guilty......no one was even charged with anything, let alone found guilty.......and Vegas continued to book matches the following years, so this is another rumor that's simply untrue.
I was told a long time ago that you can only believe 10% of the rumors you hear and 20% of what you see in the "pool world," and that may be exaggerated....it may be 5%.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc.
Like I stated, when I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' at the Mirage in Las Vegas they were still booking the matches and this was AFTER the 1991 'Challenge of Champions' so I believe the truth is obvious......the Mike Lebron victory had no negative effects, and there was never any investigation (by IRS or the Nevada Gambling Commission) into any "foul" play.
Slandering anyone's good name 23 years later over something that's just "hearsay" is not only wrong, it's un American......we all have Constitutional Rights and one of them is we're innocent until proven guilty......no one was even charged with anything, let alone found guilty.......and Vegas continued to book matches the following years, so this is another rumor that's simply untrue.
I was told a long time ago that you can only believe 10% of the rumors you hear and 20% of what you see in the "pool world," and that may be exaggerated....it may be 5%.
'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ, you know what can burn your butt better than Karma for defending wrong doing on a message board.
The Akashic Records. That stuff has already been recorded. You is gonna have some splainin to do at a later date.
The Akashic Records. That stuff has already been recorded. You is gonna have some splainin to do at a later date.
Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc.
Like I stated, when I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' at the Mirage in Las Vegas they were still booking the matches and this was AFTER the 1991 'Challenge of Champions' so I believe the truth is obvious......the Mike Lebron victory had no negative effects, and there was never any investigation (by IRS or the Nevada Gambling Commission) into any "foul" play.
Slandering anyone's good name 23 years later over something that's just "hearsay" is not only wrong, it's un American......we all have Constitutional Rights and one of them is we're innocent until proven guilty......no one was even charged with anything, let alone found guilty.......and Vegas continued to book matches the following years, so this is another rumor that's simply untrue.
I was told a long time ago that you can only believe 10% of the rumors you hear and 20% of what you see in the "pool world," and that may be exaggerated....it may be 5%.
You keep saying "Vegas", but fail to mention that it was at a different Casino after the first year. And, going by your last statement, we are at 95% for NOT believing what we saw on that tape, namely, the LeBron won legitimately.
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Watch the match and you'll see it clear enough.
I think we can all speculate all we want on the ins and outs of it. But if you watch Hall in that match you see a person throwing the game - no ifs or buts about it. A clear dump.
Personally I don't care how much it did or didn't harm pool. Like Jay Helfert said earlier on, it's a black mark on the sport regardless. If we really want the sport to professionalise and be treated with at least some respect, things like this can't be glossed over, tolerated or covered up.
C. J. that's why they don't have sports betting right ??? LOL
Originally Posted By, C.J.:
"Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc."
Originally Posted By, C.J.:
"Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc."