Challenge of Champions dump

But all of us who have been around pool understand how things get twisted in pool room stories.

Are you saying that you are one of the Upper Echelon and in the Know, the rest of the members posting have zero idea of what goes on behind the scenes either?

I mean, all of us have been around pool. What is it that you understand that the rest may not?

Seems like you're including yourself and excluding others by that statement.

Anyway, I am happy that all the right people had other people purchase the $200 tickets on Mike.

A little insider trading/knowledge never hurt no one at times.

And all the people that wax innocent. I highly doubt it. Most would have been in line, dick in one hand and 200 in the other.
 
Well, that may very well be the reason you slander others on here, but as far as the match being discussed goes, no one is slandering anyone. People have presented facts. Some of us live in reality.

As far as that match hurting pool, that is all hogwash. That stuff has always gone on, and is still going on. And, it's not unique to pool either. Those that want to hold up as heroes anyone in sports just because they play really good, doesn't have much of a grasp on reality.

I agree. I was at a horserace years ago at Delta Downs, it was a race where they come out of a straightaway onto the main track, then go all the way around the track and to the finish line. There was a very thick fog that night, and one jockey decided to pull a fast one. Instead of going around the track with the others, he pulled his horse up and waited in the fog, until he heard them coming and then ran out in front and won easily. Of course he got caught. For one thing the horse was a cheap claimer and he set a track record, and the stewards could count the number of horses as they went around the first time. The jockey got suspended for 10 years.

The point is it happened. Johnny Carson even told a joke about it. He said, "People knew there was something wrong when the jockey was spotted making a bet during the race." But they are still making bets at Delta Downs and tracks across the country. One episode of cheating does not kill a 'sport'.

But to deny it happened in the face of all of the evidence, is just insulting to people that know better. And in this incident we are discussing, all involved deserve equal blame, not just Buddy and Lebron, they all agreed to do it. It's not something they can't be forgiven for. Just don't keep telling us it didn't happen.
 
And to be clear, what we are talking about here are felonies. Fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. Probably the statute of limitations has run out on it but these are actual crimes you all want to put on the shoulders of Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, Nick Varner and the other players who were allegedly a part of this.


WOW. Pool players and felonies? Is this something new?

So, Earl was asked to dump, but does not mean there was a subsequent dump?? Many pool players bet on the 20-1 long shot, Buddy dogged his brains out, not only on the 8ball, but on the combo any APA 3 could have made. Not to mention his look of disgust when Mike missed an easy 2 ball run out, where most guys would be smiling like the Cheshire Cat.

Nobody cares what "petty crimes" were committed 25 years ago, certainly not law enforcement. And then Jay was there, and witnessed it. Yeah, he didn't stop it, but he also didn't have the evidence gathered to support it at that time. Who would have "won" (other than the few who bet on Buddy) had Jay stopped the tourney, called out all the dumpers, and called the cops? Nobody. and most likely jay would be in the desert still ;)

So, yeah, lots of "circumstantial evidence"... and most have the ability to see what we all saw, this was not a choke. I know what I saw.... but again, I don't think this changes anyones' opinion of Buddy or anyone else... it was what it was back then, some quick, easy cash. And had no bearing on the pool world afterward.... nobody knows about it, most recreational players never heard of it, so not a big deal.... just more of an intersting story because of the bad "hollywooding" when shots were missed.

probably was NOT the first tourney to be dumped and will NOT be the last one either.
 
Stupid Question of the Day:

have Buddy et al, sued Jay for libel?

.

Of course not. Folks are getting their panties twisted over a pool scam 25 years ago. Heck, Freddy the Beard wrote a book with a lot bigger scams than this one, and nobody is coming for him , nor calling him a liar :cool:
 
Are you saying that you are one of the Upper Echelon and in the Know, the rest of the members posting have zero idea of what goes on behind the scenes either?

I mean, all of us have been around pool. What is it that you understand that the rest may not?

Seems like you're including yourself and excluding others by that statement.

Anyway, I am happy that all the right people had other people purchase the $200 tickets on Mike.

A little insider trading/knowledge never hurt no one at times.

And all the people that wax innocent. I highly doubt it. Most would have been in line, dick in one hand and 200 in the other.

Not at all. I am saying that pool stories are not always told as it actually happened.

I have zero clue about what did or did not happen in 1991 at the COC. 99% of the people here don't either. Most of us have looked at the evidence presented and made a decision of some kind. Mine is that I don't think a dump happened but I ain't ruling it out.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
Well.... for the sake of discussion...keep in mind that this is simply a discussion.

Jay's statements are inconsistent. In one of them he indicates that he "knew something was up but was powerless to do something about it" when refereeing the finals.

Now, as referee for the event and as plugged-in as Jay seems you would think that he would have seen the dumping previously and put a stop to it before the finals. So it appears that perhaps Jay did not actually know anything prior to the finals.Nobody anywhere that I know of has ever said, with certainty, that other than the last (finals) match was a dump. To my knowledge only the finals had odds posted to bet on, meaning that individual matches did not have odds posted per match to wager on. To my knowledge you could only wager on the final winner of the tourney. Jay would not have seen anything prior to the finals all depending on when the players decided to dump (to Lebron). What would you have expected Jay to do anyway? Jump up & down and scream DUMP? Get real John.

That said all you have is his observation from the finals and whatever conversation he reports having with the manager of the sports book afterward. Hardly conclusive evidence of a dump. There's one more "name" player who admits to knowing of it:

fred bentivegna said:
Now for the record. I have condemned that stupid antic from the moment I heard about it. It did put a damper on Vegas ever doing anything for pool.

It was bad enough that they did what they did, but almost as bad was getting caught.

What they were too dumb to realize is that even if they made it look good and Mike would have won easily, they would have been uncovered for sure later anyway. An eight person conspiracy makes keeping a secret an impossibility.

If they didnt tell on themselves, then they would have eventually told somebody who would have told on them. The consequences would have been just as bad if Vegas found out later.

Beard

As for Earl, what was his alleged statement again? And is this statement on record FROM him or is it someone else saying that Earl said something?Someone else (R.H. Gilmer) said it was said by Earl BEFORE the tourney occurred.

IF Earl says that he was asked to dump then that is certainly a possibility. But that doesn't mean that there WAS a subsequent dump. In any event it would be Earl's testimony against seven other people. I am not saying Earl is lying, I am saying Earl has no first hand knowledge that a dump occurred and we don't have as far as I know any statement from Earl himself accusing his fellow professionals of felonies.

And to be clear, what we are talking about here are felonies. Fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. Probably the statute of limitations has run out on it but these are actual crimes you all want to put on the shoulders of Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, Nick Varner and the other players who were allegedly a part of this.It didn't necessarily require the involvement of all 7 other players but it's likely that it did.

John,

Here are Earl's alleged statements according to R.H. Gilmer, room owner, on the Southern Billiards site.

Here's the link to the entire statement:

http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834?sms_ss=favorites&at_xt=4dec2968c3765762,1#.U3553WfQecy



Professor said:
Shorty, yes, the tournament you are in reference to was, I think, the first "$50,000 Challenge of Champions". It took place somewhere around 1991, could have been 1990 or 1992. I will tell you what I know.

There were eight players that were to play in the match; supposedly eight of the best players there were at that time. The casino(s), I believe out of Vegas but, I dont recall exactly which one(s), were sponsoring it. It was a $50,000 winner take all tournament. I dont remember the eight players, but two of them were Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron. I truly wish I could name the other six players.

Anyway, one player that was obviously absent from the list was Earl Strickland, player of the year and current world champion. The reason given that Earl could not be there was that he was scheduled to be out of the country and would not be able to play. Now, you need to realize that the conversation I am about to recount to you happened BEFORE the tournament. And, whatever you may think of Earl for whatever reason, the following shot my stock in him through the roof.

I mentioned to Strickland that I hated hearing that he would not be able to compete in the $50,000 Challenge of Champions due to being out of the country. He kind of chuckled in the way that he does and said something to the effect that yea, he would be out of the country but, they had scheduled it that way because they didnt want him to play in it. At that point, I was thinking Earl may have a little too high an opinion of him self. Then what he told me I found totally incredulous. He told me that they planned to split the money ($50,000) up equally among them! Furthermore, the long shot in the tournament (even odds would be 7 to one against) was LeBron, and that the house odds on him were 20 to 1. The idea was that the players could then bet the money back on LeBron. Earl said he would have nothing to do with fixing the match! He said he told them he would play, but that if he did he would be playing to win, and would not agree to any split agreements.

Now, I think you would admit, that was really an unbelievable story. I left that conversation with my first doubts about things Earl says. Well to this day I owe him an apology for having doubted what he said.

The Challenge took place. Now, this was a big thing. I mean in my mind that event was one of the best things that had ever happened to pool. Not only did we have a sponsor behind the event for 50 large, which was great, but, they were also making lines on the event! Now, people may approve or disapprove of gambling, I will not judge others individual beliefs; personally for some people I think it is wrong for them to gamble, and for others I dont. However, I do believe that one of the best things that can happen to a sport, it terms of making it popular, is the ability of the public to wager on it. Bingo! With this event we had two of the best things that could ever happen to pool taking place; a sponsor putting money behind the game and lines were being made legally! Damn, people it dont get any better!

Then I saw the finals of the match! Time and time again I watched the last two innings between Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron, I could NOT believe what I was seeing. It has been a decade or more since I saw it, but I remember it well. They made it look good. The problem was they made it look too good. Here is what happened, the best I can recall.

The finals match came down to Buddy and Mike at hill/hill. Some how Mike, trying to win, left Buddy Hall an easy shot on the eight. I mean the eight was somewhere a around the spot, the nine was setting a few inches below it. The cue ball was over by the side pocket and off the side rail, so that the shot on the eight was almost perfect. Just shoot the eight in and draw back for an easy shot on the nine. Any, I mean ANY decent 9-ball player is going to get out here. I mean hell, I would even let you bet what you like, and I would bet I could get out from there even to day, and I dont really play anymore.

You know how the cameramen will shoot over the pocket toward the ball that is to be pocketed. Well, that was the view given, and the shoot was such a slight cut that you could also see the cue ball in the frame. This was where I sat there watching the video in total disbelief! You could tell from the angle of the camera shot, that as Buddy lined up on the shot, not only was he going to miss another gime, the shot was so easy, he was actually was cutting the eight away from the pocket! Again, one of the best there was missed, another easy shot. I appeared more that obvious to me that he tried to miss. But, in his defense, we, and even the best have missed easy shots, but for one of the best in the world, and one of the best money players ever known, to do it back to back with 50 large on the line, get real. Remember, second got nothing (supposedly), it was a winner take all.

Then, just like Earl had told me would happen, Mike LeBron won!

Postscript: Not that the topic is Earl, but there was one other comment he made to me during that same conversation, it which it was evident he was not in favor of agreements to split up the money from tournaments. It was around that time that he had won the U.S. Open, playing Nick Varner in the finals. He told me that when they were getting ready to lag for the break, Nick turned to him and said, Split? The which Earl said he replied, Nick, you just lost !

Professor,
Quantum ego meditatio, quantum fortunatus ego acquiro

After watching the video we can all see that Mr. Gilmer's recollection of events is a little off but that doesn't change his recollection of the conversation with Earl.


ONB
 
Jay Helfert, who was at the tournament (TD I believe) says the dump is a FACT.

Jay is a guy that loves and supports the game of pool. Just what would be Jay's motive for making up a negative thing about the game?

Here's what jay said earlier today:

"CJ, this was a long time ago in another galaxy far away, but IT REALLY HAPPENED and to deny it happened is a huge error in judgement imo. I don't think it has any bearing on professional pool today so I won't belabor the issue any longer after this. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Buddy as it turns out. Six other guys were counting on him to lose this match, since they were all holding $200 tickets at 20-1 on Mike! Yes, Buddy had a ticket too. None of these tickets were bought by the players themselves, they had someone (friend or spouse) make the purchase for them.

Only one player (Earl or Allen) refused to be part of this deal. The other seven guys split the 50K equally (plus cashed $4,200 tickets at the sports book). Not a bad payday in 1991, over 11K each. I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics.

I'm certain CJ that if you had been invited that year you also would have refused to participate because that's the kind of man you are.
One last thing, I agree with you, KARMA is a b-tch! So be careful what you espouse and support. I do not fault or condemn any of these players for this transgression. Remember this was the first year of the Challenge and they may have thought it was a one time deal, and there is no question that the sports book made a terrible line on Mike Lebron, who was a fine player. The next biggest odds on anyone was like 8-1. It was just too tempting for the players, who saw an opportunity and went for it. By the way that was the only time this happened in this event. Matt Braun got wind of the whole thing and put an end to it quick the following year. He laid down the law to the eight players that any hint of a dump and none of them would get paid! They all had to sign an agreement disavowing any deals prior to the start of play.

P.S. I'm not a guy in a diner!"
 
Years ago me and my dad would sit and watch wide world of sports whenever Willie played vs Fats. Or if we were lucky one of the many champions of the era. The seats were usually full. Howard Cosell on the mike.
Most peoples moms could tell you Mizerak was a school teacher.
Pool was mainstream.
I had no knowledge of this event prior to reading this thread.
thx for the education.
There is no doubt in my mind something has happened to the state of pro pool in the last twenty something years.
Whatever it was doesn't really matter. but I am pretty sure no one today but a hard core player knows who Effren or Mike Dischaine is or for that matter Shane vb. A few of our best players.
To me it really doesn't matter much, I am strictly a recreational player.
Someday these guys, or more likely next generation players will get it together.
Florian does it right. Maybe a new high run could kick start things a little.
No shorts allowed.
for what it is worth, I believe the future of pool is the streaming events you guys put up. at least until the television guys pick up on it.
steven
" I am not really sure this post belong here, but screw it"
 
it's just a matter of time before pool's back in the public spotlight.

Pool was on TV the most from 96 through 99 on ESPN with the women and the men's tours. It was right about 98/99 that the bottom started to drop out of the game and I'm not sure what happened after that (I stopped playing for about 8 years).

There's some exciting things brewing these days, it's just a matter of time before pool's back in the public spotlight.


Years ago me and my dad would sit and watch wide world of sports whenever Willie played vs Fats. Or if we were lucky one of the many champions of the era. The seats were usually full. Howard Cosell on the mike.
Most peoples moms could tell you Mizerak was a school teacher.
Pool was mainstream.
I had no knowledge of this event prior to reading this thread.
thx for the education.
There is no doubt in my mind something has happened to the state of pro pool in the last twenty something years.
Whatever it was doesn't really matter. but I am pretty sure no one today but a hard core player knows who Effren or Mike Dischaine is or for that matter Shane vb. A few of our best players.
To me it really doesn't matter much, I am strictly a recreational player.
Someday these guys, or more likely next generation players will get it together.
Florian does it right. Maybe a new high run could kick start things a little.
No shorts allowed.
for what it is worth, I believe the future of pool is the streaming events you guys put up. at least until the television guys pick up on it.
steven
" I am not really sure this post belong here, but screw it"
 
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Pool was on TV the most from 96 through 99 on ESPN with the women and the men's tours. It was right about 98/99 that the bottom started to drop out of the game and I'm not sure what happened after that (I stopped playing for about 8 years).

There's some exciting things brewing these days, it's just a matter of time before pool's back in the public spotlight.

Pool was hit by a Mackey truck. :rolleyes:
The year after ESPN showed the semi-finals matches of US Open live, you know what he tried to do with ESPN.
PBT then ended up with Prime Ticket .
Hell, the only video of you and Efren at the Bike was some bootleg recording.
And your match with Efren in Portland, Maine was not even on tv.
Only on VHS.
 
The Camel Tour

It seems like men's pool in America never recovered after the Camel tour ceased to exist.

This is the absolute truth. Those were the days! We were lucky to have experienced that.
 
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they were a HUGE commercial for pocket billiards and the entire industry benefited

The PCA (professional cue sports association) did all the men's ESPN Events (except for Matt Braun's events) between 96 and 99.....this equaled thousands of international hours of coverage (the WPBA did several evens as well, and we did one big one together). We also did several events on PRIME SPORTS as well.

Gary Morgenstein of ESPN told me I was on ESPN over 600 hours myself in those years......granted these weren't all "prime time" spots, but they were a HUGE commercial for pocket billiards and the entire industry benefited considerably.

Pool was hit by a Mackey truck. :rolleyes:
The year after ESPN showed the semi-finals matches of US Open live, you know what he tried to do with ESPN.
PBT then ended up with Prime Ticket .
Hell, the only video of you and Efren at the Bike was some bootleg recording.
And your match with Efren in Portland, Maine was not even on tv.
Only on VHS.
 
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