Challenge of Champions dump

Straightpool_99 said:
Ok. Here's a conspiracy theory for you:

Step 1: Mike LeBron was randomly assigned very bad odds by the oddsmakers on a whim.
Step 2: Buddy Hall is the clear odds favorite (also completely randomly).

Step 3: LeBron reaches the finals playing pool that was at a level way, way below the standard for pros at the time. Including having David Howard miss an easy 9 at a crucial point in the match.

Step 4: LeBron is now in the finals and both he and Buddy Hall are completely dogging their brains out. None of them takes the initiative when they see the other struggling, and their bad play continues throughout. Buddy seems to have temporarily lost all of his knowledge, as well as his shotmaking ability.

Step 5: The players body language is weird at the crucial points of the match and not consistent with other videos of them (especially Hall). All can be explained by nerves.

Step 6: Rumors emerge that the match was a fix. Several people make up stories about having heard from the players themselves that the match was a dump. This goes on for years.

Step 7: The thread explodes on Az. Jay Helfert, one of the most respected players on the forum, and the referee in the match in question makes up a total bs story about knowing the game was fix. He offers a 10000 dollar bet that he can prove his story to be a fact, but it is of course a lie.

Step 8: A vast campaign begins to tarnish the names of the players in the COC. Several people claim to know that the match is fixed from watching the videos. But of course they are all liars that can't run 2 balls. Some of them are also purposely lying to make themselves important, they can clearly see that the players are just nervous, but lie about it.
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Oh their body language was 'weird'? Well sure now you've convinced me :rolleyes:

In fact by far a more likely scenario is that some people watching the match thought they fixed it, started a rumour of such and, like all poolroom stories, the telling and retelling of it have exaggerated it to the point where it's taken as gospel. But I myself have heard so many different stories about the alleged 'dump' that it strains belief. Here's just a sample of everything I've heard whispered at one time or another:

- that it was all arranged by Billy Incardona
- that It was all arranged by Toby from LVCC (can't remember his last name)
- that it was all arranged by Tony Elin
- that it was all arranged by Grady Matthews
- that Earl was solicited and wouldn't take part
- that Ortmann was solicited and wouldn't take part
- that Archer was solicited and wouldn't take part
- that Hopkins was solicited and wouldn't take part
- that Mirage lost $1m+ on the dump
- that Mirage lost $200k on the dump, and stiffed one bettor for $100k
- that Mirage lost only about $80k on the dump
- that Bobby Baldwin threatened to have Tony Elin killed over it (oh and look, Tony is, in fact, no longer alive)
- that Steve Wynn threatened Grady (who is also, in fact, no longer alive)
- that Matt Braun arranged the whole tournament result for ratings and the pool players just knew and took advantage of the lines
- that Matt Braun was aware, but did nothing
- that Matt Braun knew nothing, but found out later
- that Jay Helfert was aware, but did nothing
- that Jay Helfert has $10,000 worth of 'proof' that it happened (new from this thread, oh boy!)

In short, believe what you want but I'm pretty skeptical of all these conspiracies after all these years. There's just too much BS.
 
Jay said he'd bet $10,000 he could prove it.

not vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Originally Posted By, Bbutler:
"- that Jay Helfert has $10,000 worth of 'proof' that it happened (new from this thread, oh boy!)"


Question did you start all the other rumors in that post also ?
 
Bbutler said:
Still waiting for someone to explain to me why Buddy didn't miss the 7 instead of the 8.
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If Buddy missed the 7, then Mike would be forced to run a whopping 3 balls to cross the finish line.
And Buddy knows that Mike is at least a 20:1 dog to run 3 balls.
 
Another peculiar thing no seemed to mention yet ...
Had the cue ball NOT hit the titty of the side pocket, Buddy would over-ran position by about 8-12 inches at least and "below" the 8 ball.
How often do you hear about Buddy being on the "wrong" side of the ball position-wise?

The way he hit the 7, two likeliest things to happen didn't happen
-scratch in the side
-overrun position

Hitting the point of the side was the only way he got perfect shape on the 8.
He's now forced to "dog" it.
 
itsfroze said:
Jay said he'd bet $10,000 he could prove it.

not vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Originally Posted By, Bbutler:
"- that Jay Helfert has $10,000 worth of 'proof' that it happened (new from this thread, oh boy!)"


Question did you start all the other rumors in that post also ?
Click to expand...

Sorry your reading comprehension is weak but those two things to mean effectively the same thing. If you disagree then fine, that hair can be split. I'll plead guilty.
 
seven_7days said:
Another peculiar thing no seemed to mention yet ...
Had the cue ball NOT hit the titty of the side pocket, Buddy would over-ran position by about 8-12 inches at least and "below" the 8 ball. I just watched the shot 6 times and I think he may have "overran" position on the 8 ball by maybe 8 inches at most but no more(His big butt was in the way). Still, a very makeable shot for anyone.
How often do you hear about Buddy being on the "wrong" side of the ball position-wise?

The way he hit the 7, two likeliest things to happen didn't happen
-scratch in the side
-overrun position

Hitting the point of the side was the only way he got perfect shape on the 8.
He's now forced to "dog" it.Quite possibly.
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Have you ever hit the side pocket tit, almost scratched, and still got perfect position? I know I have and everyone reading this thread probably has. That's not proof of anything.

ONB
 
xplor said:
The 1991 Challenge of Champions match mentioned in Spanish Mikes bio was held at the Mohegan Sun . Is it possible the Mirage match was a made for tv event?
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I guess that anyone who calls a Puerto Rican poolplayer "Spanish Mike" is subject to believe anything.

He was a onetime road-running mate of "Miami". Nuff said.

ONB
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Well he had odds of 20:1 against him for a reason...He was a great player just a few years prior, but he was getting up in years. How did this guy even reach the finals with Varner, Sigel, Howard, Hopkins and Hall playing? They let him, that's how! (Not Hopkins, he wasn't in on the "alleged" dump)
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Unless you are Allen Hopkins you do not know this.

ONB
 
When Buddy missed the eight to tie the match up I was actually expecting for him to miscue. That would have been more believable.
 
Old Nine Baller said:
I guess that anyone who calls a Puerto Rican poolplayer "Spanish Mike" is subject to believe anything.

He was a onetime road-running mate of "Miami". Nuff said.

ONB
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That was his nickname around the northeast regardless of its genesis. No one said Hispanic back then.

BTW- New York Blackie was white as was Detroit Whitey :)
 
Hey CJ,
Couple questions:

How good was Buddy Hall in 91?

Were you lining up to play him even?

Was he spotting all the pros in order to get action?

How much do you think Lebron needed in a gambling match at that time for a competitive game?
Or what would he have to give up for Lebron for an even match up?
Or what would he have to give up for you to want to bet on Lebron?

In 1991 how good a player was Buddy? If you had to compare him to todays top pros would he be like a SVB or Orcullo, someone else?

I know the Challenge of Champions were short races and anyone can win.


CJ Wiley said:
I agree, the casinos are not in the business of losing.....ever!

What's funny is there were supposedly 11/$200 bets on Lebron and I've never heard that anyone bet on the other players......wow, what an anomaly for Las Vegas to lose 100% of their bets giving up 20/1 on the money.

This sounds very fishy, and when I played in 94 Bobby Baldwin (President of the Mirage at the time) and I talked quite a bit - he never mentioned any concerns about the tournament or the players. We had to sign a contract that we couldn't make "savers," however, I can't recall stipulations about anything else.

He's actually really respectful of pool players, as a World Champion Poker Player himself (he can relate to the sub culture). Bobby used to play a lot around Dallas and Tulsa OK back in the 80s so he knows what's up in the world of gambling.
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Whoever made Lebron 20/1 was mad at their money, he was 7/1 in reality.

Only because you're such a nice, polite gentleman.......:groucho:

daphish1 said:
Hey CJ,
Couple questions:

How good was Buddy Hall in 91? Buddy was a really good player in 91.

Were you lining up to play him even? No, Buddy and I never talked of gambling against one another - we did play against each other in several tournaments....he has a winning record against me.

Was he spotting all the pros in order to get action? No, Buddy wasn't gambling much in the 90s, he was focusing primarily on tournaments.

How much do you think Lebron needed in a gambling match at that time for a competitive game? Buddy would have had his hands full playing Lebron in Philadelphia.

Or what would he have to give up for Lebron for an even match up? I'd guess when they played in a tournament (race to 11) Buddy would be a one game favorite with the book.

Or what would he have to give up for you to want to bet on Lebron? I would bet on Lebron to win if 9 was a push and 10 was a win.

In 1991 how good a player was Buddy? If you had to compare him to todays top pros would he be like a SVB or Orcullo, someone else? He played better, although his racking and breaking abilities weren't as polished as theirs.

I know the Challenge of Champions were short races and anyone can win. Yes, whoever made Lebron 20/1 was mad at their money.....he was probably no more than 7/1 in reality.
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None of them would have been more than 7/1 underdogs in the "real world" of Vegas

BJTyler said:
Cj...if you think that Lebron should have been no worse than 7:1, who in your opinion was the biggest dog in the COC? And what should the odds have been on him?
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All these players were very close considering the format, the tables, the polished balls, rails/pockets/cloth and the ESPN atmosphere etc. - it was far from "normal conditions".

Remember, this was 'The Challenge of Champions' - all these men were past Champion players or they would not have been selected to participate in the tournament.

None of them would have been more than 7/1 underdogs in the "real world" of Vegas odds making. Even a child of 7 would have known better than to make one of the Champions 20/1.....this is possibly the 2nd most foolish thing I've ever heard of in pro events.
 
Old wives tale...

This blow hard story about the Challenge of Champion Dump is just the wacko dream of some rumor mongerer trying to gain some self recognition by defaming others. Not worth the time in addressing:D
 
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