Collusion in a ring game

jdr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Reading the post on Ring Games and Liability got me thinking, what kind of weight do you think you would need if you were a B player going into a ring game with two other players who were exactly the same skill level, but were working together? If you were one of these 2 players, what would be the best strategy? (i.e. the player directly after the fish fire away, but the person directly before always play a safe immediately?)

Personally, I think the weight would have to be very high, maybe getting paid $4 for every money ball (combined) vs paying $1 for every money ball. I think as the level of the players went up, the weight would have to be even higher...
 
Never played in a ring game where weight was given. I don't remember ever seeing it done.
 
Sorry, I slightly misspoke.. I didn't mean weight as much as meant odds on the money... 2 to 1, etc. (I was thinking I would need to 2 to 1 on the money.)
 
jdr said:
Reading the post on Ring Games and Liability got me thinking, what kind of weight do you think you would need if you were a B player going into a ring game with two other players who were exactly the same skill level, but were working together? If you were one of these 2 players, what would be the best strategy? (i.e. the player directly after the fish fire away, but the person directly before always play a safe immediately?)

Personally, I think the weight would have to be very high, maybe getting paid $4 for every money ball (combined) vs paying $1 for every money ball. I think as the level of the players went up, the weight would have to be even higher...

A B player should not be playing in a ring game where two equally skilled players are colluding against him, IMHO.

The nature of ring games are supposed to be all out offense, no safeties allowed. If you have two people colluding against you, you are going to get very few shots, and where is the fun in that?

In my view, cheap ring games like that are supposed to be about fun, not trying to make a living...

I'm not sure how one would even negotiate this spot..

"Yo, I know you two are going to cheat me.... So I need 4 to 1 on the money."

What are they going to say? Yes???? And if they do... Do you like that game? And if they are cheating you, and you win.... Are you going to get paid???

That's the biggest thing.. You are going into a game knowing you are playing with cheaters.. Hopefully, you'll see that this is not likely to work out very well.

If you outclassed both these players, then you could probably outrun the collusion, but that really depends on what kind of table the guy whose responsibility it is to "run out", and how good a safety player the one leading into you is.

You should be able to find better games than this to play in, man..

Good luck..

Russ
 
If they are truly in collusion, I wouldn't play them no matter what the weight was. As to the strategy on how to cut someone up in a ring game, I hope you're just asking so that you are more able to avoid it happening to you.
 
I guess I wasn't trying to chop anyone up, but just assuming that everyone knew what was going on. The strategies I was thinking of would be very obvious to anyone playing.

I once had a very strong A player who offered to play me and my friend even, but with the understanding that we would work together. He could probably give either one of us the 7 and be robbing us. Initially, we couldn't figure out how to collude properly and we were getting robbed. Then we tried a strategy where the first player would intentionally scratch giving the second player ball in hand and we were still losing. Eventually, we ended up playing where the first player would play normally, just very aggressively and the second player would just play normal, but very conservatively, and we ended up winning using that strategy, but I'm not sure that it's the best.
 
jdr said:
... Then we tried a strategy where the first player would intentionally scratch giving the second player ball in hand and we were still losing. ...
Well, then, how about the first player, while shooting perhaps at the three ball, instead rolls the nine into the jaws of a pocket. The second player then plays the combo. Or, the first player always rides the money and the second plays conservatively.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, then, how about the first player, while shooting perhaps at the three ball, instead rolls the nine into the jaws of a pocket. The second player then plays the combo.

Oh.. .that's genius... I guess I'll have to defer to everyone's experience and assume that as long as the two ppl collude intelligently, the third player can't win. I guess we just weren't smart enough to come up with a very good strategy. :o
 
well..

i have played in some ring games with weight involved! the lessor player would get the 3-6-9 while the 2 better players play the 5-9! each of the a players got $1 a ball and the b player got $2 a ball! it worked out pretty good kept things interesting! :cool:
 
jdr said:
... as long as the two ppl collude intelligently, the third player can't win. ...
It still depends on how badly the pair plays. It takes some amount of speed control to set your partner up for an easy kill. I think that in APA terms, two twos would still loose against a seven.
 
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jdr said:
Reading the post on Ring Games and Liability got me thinking, what kind of weight do you think you would need if you were a B player going into a ring game with two other players who were exactly the same skill level, but were working together? If you were one of these 2 players, what would be the best strategy? (i.e. the player directly after the fish fire away, but the person directly before always play a safe immediately?)

Personally, I think the weight would have to be very high, maybe getting paid $4 for every money ball (combined) vs paying $1 for every money ball. I think as the level of the players went up, the weight would have to be even higher...

I had it happen to me several times, where two players tried to cut me up in a three handed game. It didn't work out well for them. They ended up arguing with each other every time. Remember, they are giving you 2-1 on the money. It's a bad move and most players know better than to try this one, against any decent player. It can backfire!
 
If the person shooting in front of you is in on the cut then you will never get anything but bad leaves.
No spot can compensate for cheating.
 
Money Management Instead of Odds

I use money management. This works whether the players are all better than me (not unusual where I live) or there are several weaker players in the game. I get away with this because I am "retired and living on a fixed, bare-subsistence income" -- what they don't know, they don't NEED to know ... :D .

First of all, if I can help it, I do NOT get into multiple-handed games with strangers, most of whom know each other. Second, I most definitely will NOT play in a game with more than 5 players, including mysaelf, and I like the 4-handed game best.

Next, I add up the payouts on the money balls. For instance, if it's $1 on the 5 and $2 on the 9, this is 1 + 2 - $3 TOTAL. I then multiply this total by 7 and round UP to the nearest $5. So, in this case, 3 x 7 = $21, rounded up = $25.

This is my "START OUT" money. This is the money I am WILLING TO THROW AWAY, like a recreational trip to the nearby casino. This is usually enough to keep me in the game for 6 racks or so, even if I come up dry all the way. If I hit a 5 a couple of times, or a 5 and a 9, within these first 6 racks, this is just enough to keep me in for a few more racks.

The beauty of this is that I don't really have to determine how I think I'm going to do for the rest of the night. I have removed this "Start Up" money from the rest of my money, placing the "Start Up" in my FRONT pocket and the rest somewhere else. I play SOLELY from this front pocket for the rest of the time until it either dries up, or I'm left standing at the end of the night.

Even when there are better players than me in the game, it's surprising how often I'm still standing well into the evening, and sometimes even at the end! However, if my front pocket dries up, I QUIT IMMEDIATELY! -- no ifs, ands or buts!

Using this little rule of thumb, I can easily calculate beforehand how much money I'm comfortably willing to risk at any given time to see how far I can go. $3 on the 5 and $5 on the 9 gives 3 + 5 = 8, 8 x 7 = 56 (round to $60). $5 on the 5 and $10 on the 9 gives 5 + 10 = 15, 15 x 7 = $105. I have done all of these quite a few times and am, therefore, not necessarily averse to this. At any given time, my whole pocketbook tells me how much I am willing to "throw away."

So then, what happens if they start out low and then raise the bet (happens almost every time when we play a ring game here in NW WA State). Around here, it's usual that, about an hour before closing time, they go right from a 1+2 game (need $25 seed money) to a 3+5 game (need $60 seed money). This is no problem if you have more than $60 in your FRONT pocket at this time.

However, if you have less than $60 in your FRONT pocket, you may now choose whether you will IMMEDIATELY QUIT or bring your FRONT pocket up to $60 (EXACT AMOUNT) from your other cash. If you decide to continue playing, this $60 has now become your "throw away casino" money ... :D .

Now, the rule is the same as before -- if the FRONT pocket dries up, QUIT IMMEDIATELY!

If you're the stranger in town, you can still work this. First of all, don't be too pushy or seem too eager about your match-ups -- do EVERYTHING in the spirit of good fun. Second, DO NOT flash your knowledge, act a little too cagey or woof it up -- you need to act a little naive, or even dumb, depending upon the situation. DEFINITELY, if at all possible unless they're totally fouled up, USE A BAR CUE -- if your opponents are using their own cues, then use your own, as long as it's a PLAIN JANE, SNEAKY PETE or looks like some kind of cheap beater -- if you don't have one of these with you then, sorry, you have to use a bar cue ... :D .

Then, if your FRONT pocket dries up suddenly, you only need to tell the truth: you are on vacation and have LIMITED FUNDS on which to travel. Thank them all for the great time and buy them a couple of beers -- the next time you come through town, you will not only have decent action, but some decent friends, as well.
 
Pushout said:
Never played in a ring game where weight was given. I don't remember ever seeing it done.

They do it in Hawaii. I played in one in Hawaiian Brian's. I was one of the weight givers and, in the end, I didn't come out a winner. They also play BIH in a ring game. If you foul, the next guy has BIH! They have some other rules that seem insane to those of us outside Hawaii who aren't familiar with them.
 
Jimmy M. said:
They do it in Hawaii. I played in one in Hawaiian Brian's. I was one of the weight givers and, in the end, I didn't come out a winner. They also play BIH in a ring game. If you foul, the next guy has BIH! They have some other rules that seem insane to those of us outside Hawaii who aren't familiar with them.
Kinda like their Spam Sushi? :eek: :D
 
JoeyInCali said:
Kinda like their Spam Sushi? :eek: :D

Heh. My wife was craving musubi while we were on Maui last week but all we could find was spam everywhere we went. We did finally find a couple chicken musubi. I'm glad because I wasn't going for the spam! Hawaii is my favorite place to visit but spam is where I draw the line! :D
 
One time back in the 80's after a few too many cocktails a friend of mine and I tried this "2 brothers and a stranger" on a player that was passing through. It seemed like we were so focused on trying to leave one another an out that neither one of us could string together a four ball run. Like Jay said, "backfire" it definitely did.
 
jay helfert said:
I had it happen to me several times, where two players tried to cut me up in a three handed game. It didn't work out well for them. They ended up arguing with each other every time. Remember, they are giving you 2-1 on the money. It's a bad move and most players know better than to try this one, against any decent player. It can backfire!


getting 2 to 1 on the $$$ is strong, I havent seen any collusion in a ring game,

play 3 ball 2 tie all tie and double the bet thats a great ring game and it will keep them on the square, and your getting 2 to 1 on the $$$ if your the strongest of the 3 you got the nuts, if your the 2nd best player you are getting 2 to 1 you still have a great game, if your the weakest player-why are you in this ring game to begine with? with this format of doubling the pot the $$$ will get big fast.
 
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jdr said:
...very obvious to anyone playing.

..strong A player who offered to play me and my friend even, but with the understanding that we would work together. He could probably give either one of us the 7 and be robbing us...

How did the $ work? Say the bet is $23 a man, when you lose, he gets $46, whe he loses, he pays $23. That would be a pretty sweet deal, and is usually the way a ring game works, which is why a better player will fade the 2/1 on the shots, getting 2/1 on the $...
 
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