Common misconceptions

They do...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy
Click to expand...

ratcues said:
They do...;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy
Click to expand...

ratcues said:
It is all in general terms and 'mph' is not how this this would be calculated. I just used it as a reference everyone can grasp.

Look at it like this;

Ek= 1/2 mass(18oz) X velocity squared(10mph)

Assume the mass is same, you can see when you square 10 you get 100. When replaced with 20, it turns to 400.

Now, assume the velocity equal (20mph, for example), you multiply the 400 times 18oz compared to 20oz. It is not near as big of a difference.

Therefore, velocity is much more important in this energy equations than is mass.

The reason to use a lighter cue has to do with inertia. It is easier to go from rest to striking speed than it is to move a heavier cue from rest to striking speed. Imagine starting to push a Corvette vs a pickup.

I don't think for a minute that there is a huge difference between how fast a player can move an 18oz cue vs a 20oz cue but the physics of the action do not lie. I do believe there is a "terminal speed" where a given player cannot physically move his/her arm any faster.

Here is a good example; years ago, there was a vendor at the APA tournament in Vegas. He would have players come up and ask for the heaviest cue he had so they could use it as a breaker. Oddly enough, he has an all metal cue that weighed 72oz. He would challenge them to break a rack at the 'speed break' booth next to his. No one could break worth a damn and it proved his point, albeit, in an extreme and unrealistic way.
Click to expand...


Don't take this the wrong way, but the question was do heavier cues break harder than lighter cues and kinetic energy is pretty irrelevant when you're trying to figure out if the weight of the cue has an impact on how hard the cue ball hits the rack during a bust. You have to figure out the force of the cue stick hitting the cue ball and whether or not using lighter or heavier cues has an effect on it. Kinetic energy is just the amount of energy something has from motion. You wrote above "assume the mass is the same." When you're trying to figure out whether or not there's an increase in speed and power on the cue ball when using two different cue's with two different weights, you can't assume the mass is the same. Actually, if anything, you would assume the velocity of your stroke was the same. An adult is going to be able to stroke a 21 oz. cue the same velocity as a 17 oz. cue. If we were talking about baseball, 4 oz. would make a huge difference b/c the ball is coming so fast that you barely have any reaction time therefore getting your bat speed up to optimal speed and getting the bat at just the right angle needed for the ball to come off as hard as it possibly can is crucial and the slightest difference in the weight of the bat can and will affect your at bat, but the cue ball is stationary so you have as much time as you need to hit it and there is no doubt about it, if you bust with a 21 oz. cue, you are going to hit the cue ball harder and faster than if you bust with a 17 oz. cue. That will lead to the cue ball hitting the front ball in the rack harder and with more force, b/c force=mass x acceleration. Using a heavier cue will also cause an increase in momentum, which is directly proportional to force. Anyway, it's too late to be doing this, lol, I'm going to bed.
 
I think there's been some miscommunication in this thread.

It all revolves around the statements of speed. In reality, there are 2 different speeds being talked about. The first is that of the actual cue, and the second is that of the cue ball.

Of course, it's very simple logic to say that a heavy cue traveling at a given speed will produce a faster cue ball speed than a lighter cue traveling at the same speed.

Here's where the rub comes in. Some believe that either cue, regardless of weight, will travel at the same speed, which is not likely. In most instances, a player will get the lighter cue moving to a faster speed by the time it hits the cue ball. Now, keep in mind that we all have a maximum speed we can get the cue up to, and they aren't always the same for cues that are different weight. But, there's always a cap to the speed increase when going to a lighter cue. Once you reach that cap, going lighter won't add anything to how fast you swing the cue.

Ryan posted, and I believe this to be accurate and provable, that the energy transferred to the cue ball goes up much faster when the cue speed is increased versus the cue weight being increased. So logically, if a player is not at that cap and he decreases the weight of his cue the increase in cue speed will add more cue ball speed than was lost by the reduction in cue weight.

All in all, it's just some stuff that's fun to talk about. I know people who fit into both categories. Some go lighter with their break cues, and some go heavier. Me personally, I tend to break with a cue that's about the same weight as my playing cue. But, keep in mind that I rarely weigh my cue, so I'm really not sure how much it weighs. :grin: I do get asked all the time though, lol.

Royce
 
  • Like
Reactions: JC
RBC said:
I think there's been some miscommunication in this thread.

It all revolves around the statements of speed. In reality, there are 2 different speeds being talked about. The first is that of the actual cue, and the second is that of the cue ball.

Of course, it's very simple logic to say that a heavy cue traveling at a given speed will produce a faster cue ball speed than a lighter cue traveling at the same speed.

Here's where the rub comes in. Some believe that either cue, regardless of weight, will travel at the same speed, which is not likely. In most instances, a player will get the lighter cue moving to a faster speed by the time it hits the cue ball. Now, keep in mind that we all have a maximum speed we can get the cue up to, and they aren't always the same for cues that are different weight. But, there's always a cap to the speed increase when going to a lighter cue. Once you reach that cap, going lighter won't add anything to how fast you swing the cue.

Ryan posted, and I believe this to be accurate and provable, that the energy transferred to the cue ball goes up much faster when the cue speed is increased versus the cue weight being increased. So logically, if a player is not at that cap and he decreases the weight of his cue the increase in cue speed will add more cue ball speed than was lost by the reduction in cue weight.

All in all, it's just some stuff that's fun to talk about. I know people who fit into both categories. Some go lighter with their break cues, and some go heavier. Me personally, I tend to break with a cue that's about the same weight as my playing cue. But, keep in mind that I rarely weigh my cue, so I'm really not sure how much it weighs. :grin: I do get asked all the time though, lol.

Royce
Click to expand...

I like to think of it as a push or pull on the break. Balance of the weight has more impact than what the weight is. If I had a 24oz break cue that had the same balance and specs as my current 19oz break cue I doubt I'd notice much difference. Now when that weight isn't balanced and just added via a massive weight bolt, I find myself feeling as if I'm trying to pull the cue into the cue ball. Have the weight too far forward and I feel as if I'm pushing through the cue ball too early. Having the balance just right, regardless of weight allow me to feel that all I have to do is just swing the cue. But really anything over 21oz is just too hard to balance properly for myself.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
I like to think of it as a push or pull on the break. Balance of the weight has more impact than what the weight is. If I had a 24oz break cue that had the same balance and specs as my current 19oz break cue I doubt I'd notice much difference. Now when that weight isn't balanced and just added via a massive weight bolt, I find myself feeling as if I'm trying to pull the cue into the cue ball. Have the weight too far forward and I feel as if I'm pushing through the cue ball too early. Having the balance just right, regardless of weight allow me to feel that all I have to do is just swing the cue. But really anything over 21oz is just too hard to balance properly for myself.
Click to expand...



I understand, but that really has more to do with accurately you direct the cue into the cue ball than anything else.

For the purpose of a practical discussion on break cue weights and how they effect cue ball speed, you have to assume that the cue is directed linearly at the center of the cue ball. I don't actually think that this ever really happens. At least not often. But without that assumption, there are just too many variables involved to discuss cue weight versus speed.

Now, if you want to know what makes a cue break harder on off center hits, that's a whole different discussion.


Royce
 
RBC said:
I understand, but that really has more to do with accurately you direct the cue into the cue ball than anything else.

For the purpose of a practical discussion on break cue weights and how they effect cue ball speed, you have to assume that the cue is directed linearly at the center of the cue ball. I don't actually think that this ever really happens. At least not often. But without that assumption, there are just too many variables involved to discuss cue weight versus speed.

Now, if you want to know what makes a cue break harder on off center hits, that's a whole different discussion.


Royce
Click to expand...

It's not accuracy that the balance of a cue affects. It's the ability to achieve maximum speed. It's why I said push versus pull. Sometimes you feel the balance is too far forward and the tip just feels as if it's contacting sooner than you want. A perception on personal preference. You feel as if you're pushing the weight of the cue through the cue ball or pulling the weight to the cue ball. Machines/math don't have the capability to interpret human touch. While we can figure out what achieves maximum theoretical performance, human touch and feel is what determines practical maximum performance. Whether it be forward balance or rear balance, or just weight of the cue. For me it's more the balance than just the weight.
 
I've always thought it depended on your breaking style. If you use a lot of wrist action, and really whip the cue, lighter is better. If you use more of an arm swing and tighter grip, a heavier cue will probably work better.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
It's not accuracy that the balance of a cue affects. It's the ability to achieve maximum speed. It's why I said push versus pull. Sometimes you feel the balance is too far forward and the tip just feels as if it's contacting sooner than you want. A perception on personal preference. You feel as if you're pushing the weight of the cue through the cue ball or pulling the weight to the cue ball. Machines/math don't have the capability to interpret human touch. While we can figure out what achieves maximum theoretical performance, human touch and feel is what determines practical maximum performance. Whether it be forward balance or rear balance, or just weight of the cue. For me it's more the balance than just the weight.
Click to expand...

Well, I understand that this may be the case for you. But, I've never found any conclusions demonstrating that a change in balance will change the force that a player swings the cue with. When it comes down to it, the player applies a certain amount of power, propelling the cue at a certain speed based solely on it's weight and the power applied.

Now it's certainly true that some players can accelerate faster than others. These are most often as Sheldon describes, with very loose and easy flowing mechanics. I believe that looseness adds to cue acceleration.

Here's an interesting thing I found. When I watched video of both styles, tight and loose, I was very surprised at what I found. Most "loose" players talk about how they "flip their wrist" through impact adding to the acceleration of the cue. But on video their wrists, because they are very loose and not all stressed and tight, almost always lag behind at impact. It actually looks like they're going to slip on the cue sometimes.

It's really simple. The tighter and slower you are, the heavier your break cue needs to be for optimum power. The looser and faster you are, the lighter your break cue needs to be. How heavy or how light must be figured out by trying different weights. Basically, start light and keep going up until the power or cue ball speed stops going up. Then go back down a little.


Royce
 
One thing that no one has mentioned is the ratio of "slow twitch" to "fast twitch" muscle fibers in the players arms. It's more commonly associated with runners. Sprinters and marathoners are both well-trained and conditioned athletes, however, good sprinters have been found to have more fast twitch muscle fiber in their legs and marathoners have been found to have a higher percentage of slow twitch fiber.
Keeping these differences in mind helps me understand why given two players of similar build and strength, one breaks with a heavier cue and the other with a lighter cue, yet achieve the same hard break.
My 2 cents,
Gary
 
Last edited:
weight

She brings me her Wally World 20 ounce cue. "I'm having trouble making long cut shots because the cue is too light! Will you make it 20 1/2 for me?".
 
"Oh, you make pool cues? You must be a really good player!"
:grin:
Gary
 
I've been reading on facebook that people believe the reason shafts are laminated is so they can be turned to size on a faster schedule.
 

Attachments

  • 1780711_10203458629177624_6861448861873817060_n.jpg
    1780711_10203458629177624_6861448861873817060_n.jpg
    93.9 KB · Views: 393
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top