Cored with Phenolic Rod

[JoeyInCali]

So then Joey what is more important hit or resonance to a Pool Player? In addition, phenolic is also much stronger than wood, and it bonds to wood very well. It doesn't move and since it is thermostatic it vibrates at more consistently with a repeatable resonance than wood is capable of do to it's Biological nature. Phenolic also is not effected by temperature change like wood, so when subjected to varying temperatures if will expand and contract little if at all.

What is important to most is reasonance, cueball action and low deflection imo.
If phenolic is all that, why use wood in the center?

Also the tube does not make the wood surrounding it more stable imo. Only the dowel inside it.

I can't speak for cue sellers' motives.

 

[qbilder]

Get a life, Craig. Where's your integrity, self worth? Are you really so characteristically poor that you get a kick out of being such an ass in front of everybody? Come on, let's hear it. Give me more of your BS. I think you suck at insults. This is what you want, right? You want the drama & flaming that AZ is so well known for, right? Well, get to it. Don't stop now. Truth is, you are a nobody, nothing. Get a life. Next time you feel like insulting me, at least come up with something better than this BS. You don't know me. You know nothing about me. You have never met me. Oh, let me guess. You have a degree in phsycological profiling, right? Ok, Eddie. You got me. I'm a loser, a crappy cuemaker, I need friends & beg for them, and have to beg people to buy my cues, and now i'm self righteous & need the world to listen to me. Is that right? Well maybe you can help me because I see you judge lots of people & preach a ton of philisophical BS to the forums as if God himself told you to. You must be divine. So why haven't I heard anything about you except from you? You are going to get there someday, though, right? I'll take your word for it but won't hold my breath. Get a life, Craig.

 

[dave sutton]

Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering. It's pool cues, not rocket ships. K.I.S.S. Ask Barry or Lauri or Tony how many of their cues are cored with plastic? If you are going to successfully innovate, then you must at least reach par with then surpass the best in the field. Then you are in a position to innovate. It has nothing to do with heirarchy. It's all about knowledge. You can't count wood out as the best material until you have taken wood to it's limits, then PROVE something to accel past it. As of now, there's half a dozen premier builders & all use wood, not synthetics to core, if they core. Until you know what they know, you can't really know if anything is better.

EXCELLENT POST...

let me add i agree. i hear all this crap about thinking out of the box. its a load of crap. IMO.

look at the top 5 or 10 makers in the world today. tasc szamboti searing BB scruggs mottey herceck james white richard black sw ernie g i could go on forever

tell me what one of them does these crazy things. coring with phenolic or whatever. all traditional style your talking about hundreds of years of cuemaking experience

if thats considered thinking "inside the box" only count me in!!!!

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

What is important to most is reasonance, cueball action and low deflection imo.
If phenolic is all that, why use wood in the center?

Also the tube does not make the wood surrounding it more stable imo. Only the dowel inside it.

I can't speak for cue sellers' motives.

Hi Joey: As for Graig's use of phenolic tubing coered with wood, at the "A" joint. I have never heard of this being done before. I don't like the idea of a SOLID piece of phenolic, used to core a cue. BUT, his idea of a 2" piece of tubing & wood at that spot, is very interesting to me. So much so, that I joined a forearm to a handle, using his method this afternoon. As for Eric; he & I agree more than not, but I take in all of the infor that comes my way. I discard what i don't like & if I find something that might help me, I CHANGE. I have to be flexable... at least a little. I'll let everyone know, how it turns out...JER

 

[rhncue]

EXCELLENT POST...

let me add i agree. i hear all this crap about thinking out of the box. its a load of crap. IMO.

look at the top 5 or 10 makers in the world today. tasc szamboti searing BB scruggs mottey herceck james white richard black sw ernie g i could go on forever

tell me what one of them does these crazy things. coring with phenolic or whatever. all traditional style your talking about hundreds of years of cuemaking experience

if thats considered thinking "inside the box" only count me in!!!!

Unbelievable that some one would say something like this. Research and Development is what drives progress in this world. Should we all still be playing with clay balls? Why are there layered tips or even ferrules? Why is there not just one pin size and it not still be in the shaft? According to you there should not be any thing but wood used for coring but coring itself shouldn't be done as it's only been done for the last 12 or 15 years. No break cues nor jump cues nor low deflection shafts. Yes, it's always better to bury your head in the sand, let the world pass by and then complain about the changes that have occurred.

Dick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hi Joey: As for Graig's use of phenolic tubing coered with wood, at the "A" joint. I have never heard of this being done before. I don't like the idea of a SOLID piece of phenolic, used to core a cue. BUT, his idea of a 2" piece of tubing & wood at that spot, is very interesting to me. So much so, that I joined a forearm to a handle, using his method this afternoon. As for Eric; he & I agree more than not, but I take in all of the infor that comes my way. I discard what i don't like & if I find something that might help me, I CHANGE. I have to be flexable... at least a little. I'll let everyone know, how it turns out...JER

I've seen a Jim Buss with black phenolic tube on top of the handle ( wrapped ). It was 3 inches long.
I've seen phenolic handled cue as well.

OTH a phenolic tube core might work but I'm not turning down 12-14" long phenolics tubes from 1" to 3/4 .
The thing is nasty. Dulls cutters and smelly toxic dust. Have fun.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

I've seen a Jim Buss with black phenolic tube on top of the handle ( wrapped ). It was 3 inches long.
I've seen phenolic handled cue as well.

OTH a phenolic tube core might work but I'm not turning down 12-14" long phenolics tubes from 1" to 3/4 .
The thing is nasty. Dulls cutters and smelly toxic dust. Have fun.

Joey; I think we're talking about a TWO INCH piece. I wouldn't want to bore out a 12" piece either. It is nasty, nasty stuff...JER

 

[manwon]

Get a life, Craig. Where's your integrity, self worth? Are you really so characteristically poor that you get a kick out of being such an ass in front of everybody? Come on, let's hear it. Give me more of your BS. I think you suck at insults. This is what you want, right? You want the drama & flaming that AZ is so well known for, right? Well, get to it. Don't stop now. Truth is, you are a nobody, nothing. Get a life.

Why not post a copy of your Engineering degree There is a major difference between me and you and you are right it certainly involves Integrity, Character, and Self Worth. However, the only person that is really coming out of thread looking like a Complete Ass is you. I have not tried to insult you, in fact it is not necessary you are very good at making yourself look foolish with your Mightier Than Thou attitude. Yes you have built a good reputation as a cue maker. Yes you are knowledgeable about many things involved in this craft. But are you the Top Level Cue Maker you think you are, are you above reproach and is your word final. If you don't understand something or have never tried it does that make it bad?
I may certainly be a nobody, but I am honest, and I do not Cheat, or Deceive anyone about myself or about what I am doing. I am very comfortable with who and what I am, I do not need to be stroked to feel good about myself. I do not judge myself by the number of Internet supporters that I have, in fact the subject is laughable So thanks for the suggestion, but I certainly have a life.

Next time you feel like insulting me, at least come up with something better than this BS. You don't know me.

Again, if you feel insulted it is nothing more than your own insecurity, that is a personality trait only you can correct. You are also right I do not know you, just like you don't me. So I suppose everything you have said is totally invalid because without knowing me, or seeing what I have done you are not in a position to comment in such a negative manner about it. So, I will ask again have you ever tried it??? I know the answer already, so maybe get a life does apply to some one here, and maybe it applies to you.


Oh, let me guess. You have a degree in phsycological profiling, right? Ok, Eddie. You got me. I'm a loser, a crappy cuemaker, I need friends & beg for them, and have to beg people to buy my cues, and now i'm self righteous & need the world to listen to me. Is that right? Well maybe you can help me because I see you judge lots of people & preach a ton of philisophical BS to the forums as if God himself told you to. You must be divine. So why haven't I heard anything about you except from you? You are going to get there someday, though, right? I'll take your word for it but won't hold my breath. Get a life, Craig.[/QUOTE]

I have almost 180 credit hour's from Colleges, however, I have no degree. But, I do understand how important it is to listen to others when they speak, no matter who they are or what back ground they come from. This is how you expand your mind Eric, when you think you know it all, you really know nothing at all. Because, no matter how good you may be, you will become stagnant and you will never reach your full potential. Now Eric, I never said you were a loser, or even a Crappy Cue Maker, this is your insecurity creeping out again. I have said in the past that I did not understand why your cues that were made from purchased Blanks from Schmelke and others cost so much money for the work in them. However, that is your business if you choose to perpetuate these myths by not correcting them yourself, more power to you. To some what I say certainly is Philosophical Bull Shit, but to others who can think without a Guide Book that dictates their ability to separate it, that same Bull Shit makes sense. :thumbup: But what is really important is the fact that I speak my mind openly, and the opinions I give are identified as such, the same as the things I have found to be factual

All I can say Eric is step down off your Pedestal, nothing I have said was because you disagreed with me. However, it was a direct result of your position that unless some one is in the top of a trade, they can have no true understanding of it. Therefore everyones comments, idea's, and thoughts are meaningless to some one of you stature. Eric good luck with your cue making, and with your self Image I truly wish you get what you deserve from all your knowledge.

 

[manwon]

What is important to most is reasonance, cueball action and low deflection imo.
If phenolic is all that, why use wood in the center?

Also the tube does not make the wood surrounding it more stable imo. Only the dowel inside it.

I can't speak for cue sellers' motives.

If phenolic is all that, why use wood in the center?
Also the tube does not make the wood surrounding it more stable imo. Only the dowel inside it.


Joey, I will attempt to break it down for you. The reason the Phenolic Tube is filled with a wooden core is increase the Resonance of the impact from the tip on the cue ball. The reason a 3/4 phenolic dowel is used is to strengthen the integrity of the cored forearm. Like I have said Phenolic is resistant to expansion and contraction do to the manner in which it is made. It is stronger than wood in all respects, and I have not found a wood to date that would not bond to it. It also doesn't add much weight to the forearm unless you choose to use heavy / dense woods for a core in the tube. The cues joint Pin and the A-Joint Pin will be set in the wood core that is surrounded by the Phenolic Tube at opposite ends of the forearm.

What I have found interesting is that when the holes are bored and threaded into the wood core, it further expands inside the Phenolic and tightly fits at both ends. Since the A-joint tenon which comes off the forearm is a Phenolic tube with a wood core and also with a connection screw inserted in, the next step is simple. Bore a hole in your handle wood to accommodate this tenon and bore a hole to thread for your connection screw, test your tolerances and join the cues handle.

After the handle is joined and the adhesives are dry, I also bore a 3/4 diameter hole 2 inches deep into the opposite end of the handle. Here I insert another Phenolic tube that is cored with a Hardwood, again the type of wood used will be based on the final adjustment of the cues balance point. I do not like to use weight bolts in any cue I build, however, sometimes it can not be avoided. Once this Phenolic Tube is secured in place all parts of the cues butt will cored and placed upon it. This is also for strength and stability, many older cues warp where the tenon for the butt starts from the handle. This procedure will prevent this from ever happening, it will also limit any movement of cored materials that make up the cues butt.

I hope this is clear enough to understand, I have been called ignorant by others in this thread, so I am currently crying great big Tears while I am typing this!!!!!:thumbup:

 

[JoeyInCali]

The reason the Phenolic Tube is filled with a wooden core is increase the Resonance of the impact from the tip on the cue ball.

That's my problem with it. Phens do not reasonate like wood.
I'm not crazy about linen being the substrate of linen phenolic.
Thanks.
2 inches up and down the AJ area, I have no problems with.
Edwin Reyes uses an opposite direction threaded rod in his AJ.

 

[manwon]

That's my problem with it. Phens do not reasonate like wood.
I'm not crazy about linen being the substrate of linen phenolic.
Thanks.
2 inches up and down the AJ area, I have no problems with.

Have you ever tried it Joey? If not how do you know how it feels.

Thanks very Much Joey for your opinion.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Have you ever tried it Joey? If not how do you know how it feels.

Thanks very Much Joey for your opinion.

That's linen phenolic on the outside.
I've also tried 7/8 diam with 3/4 id 3 inches up the forearm and 3 down the handle.

 

[manwon]

That's linen phenolic on the outside.
I've also tried 7/8 diam with 3/4 id 3 inches up the forearm and 3 down the handle.

How did it hit Joey?

 

[JoeyInCali]

How did it hit Joey?

Good not great.
I bought a different type of tube .
Harder than linen or xxx phenolic and sounds like ebony.
Too heavy, costly and too toxic to turn down in great quantities to be coring tubes.
At .8125 by 4 inches long tube , I'm ok with.

 

[icem3n]

i hear all this crap about thinking out of the box. its a load of crap. IMO.

"I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have
succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have
eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will
work." Thomas Edison.

.......tell me what one of them does these crazy things.

Not one of them but someone else.

Edison's Menlo Park laboratory occupied two city blocks. Edison said he wanted the lab to have "a stock of almost every conceivable material". A newspaper article printed in 1887 reveals the seriousness of his claim, stating the lab contained "eight thousand kinds of chemicals, every kind of screw made, every size of needle, every kind of cord or wire, hair of humans, horses, hogs, cows, rabbits, goats, minx, camels ...silk in every texture, cocoons, various kinds of hoofs, shark's teeth, deer horns, tortoise shell ...cork, resin, varnish and oil, ostrich feathers, a peacock's tail, jet, amber, rubber, all ores ..." and the list goes on.

Is that crazy enuf? :smile:

 

[manwon]

Get a life, Craig. Where's your integrity, self worth? Are you really so characteristically poor that you get a kick out of being such an ass in front of everybody? Come on, let's hear it. Give me more of your BS. I think you suck at insults. This is what you want, right? You want the drama & flaming that AZ is so well known for, right? Well, get to it. Don't stop now. Truth is, you are a nobody, nothing. Get a life. Next time you feel like insulting me, at least come up with something better than this BS. You don't know me. You know nothing about me. You have never met me. Oh, let me guess. You have a degree in phsycological profiling, right? Ok, Eddie. You got me. I'm a loser, a crappy cuemaker, I need friends & beg for them, and have to beg people to buy my cues, and now i'm self righteous & need the world to listen to me. Is that right? Well maybe you can help me because I see you judge lots of people & preach a ton of philisophical BS to the forums as if God himself told you to. You must be divine. So why haven't I heard anything about you except from you? You are going to get there someday, though, right? I'll take your word for it but won't hold my breath. Get a life, Craig.

YOU KNOW I HAVE GIVEN THIS SOME ADDITIONAL THOUGHT, AND ERIC ALL I CAN SAY IS I AM LAUGHING AT YOUR SUPERIOR INTELLECT BECAUSE YOU ARE A JOKE:rotflmao1: :rotflmao1: :rotflmao1: :wave: :wave: :yeah: :yeah: :lmao: :lmao: :rotflmao:

THANKS FOR SHOWING THE FORUM YOUR TRUE COLORS AND FOR HELPING ME START THE DAY WITH A LAUGH

TAKE CARE ERIC

 

[manwon]

EXCELLENT POST...

let me add i agree. i hear all this crap about thinking out of the box. its a load of crap. IMO.

look at the top 5 or 10 makers in the world today. tasc szamboti searing BB scruggs mottey herceck james white richard black sw ernie g i could go on forever

tell me what one of them does these crazy things. coring with phenolic or whatever. all traditional style your talking about hundreds of years of cuemaking experience

if thats considered thinking "inside the box" only count me in!!!!

Good Morning Dave, I have taken a day to think of a response to your post since it does involve me. Dave, I have helped you in any way possible since I have met you on this forum. We have had disagreements in the past and laughed about it later. However, to date I thought you had integrity and that you were a forward thinker with an open mind. But I was obviously incorrect and I am also disappointed because I thought you were a much more than you are.

Dave all I can say is, if you don't stand for something, you will continue to fall for anything that comes you way, and you are much more than that.

Take care Dave

 

[DaveK]

....The reason the Phenolic Tube is filled with a wooden core is increase the Resonance of the impact from the tip on the cue ball. ....

What exactly does "increase the Resonance" mean ? Are you saying the cue is louder ? Are you saying that some frequencies are amplified (lower or higher or midrange ?) ? The sound decays slower ? I'm curious about what you have measured.

Dave

 

[Cuemaster98]

We comprehend "better" based on what we are told to... "this is how a pool cue should be built and feel" but if you give someone who never played pool in his life and doesn't know how is Barry or Tony etc. to test and compare a cue with plastic inside or a traditional cue, you can not say for sure which cue will he like better!

If the person is not a pool player...he won't know the difference between a broom stick vs a pool cue.

I agree that "Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering" but if you do not try then you'll never know... this is how all great invention were created, a lot of them by mistake, other by trial and error.

I agreed that you never will know....very high probability...However, most inventor start with an idea...if the idea is to make a better playing cue...if will first have to understand what that is..before you invent a cue to do just that.

You do not need to follow someone else foot step and reach their level to become "better" you can find your own path and get to greatness by yourself and maybe become a new pioneer.

/QUOTE]

Well...it's a pool cue...what there's to pioneer? Well...maybe since I'm going to be the first to build an A.I cue..that tell me how to make the shot. LOL!!!

 

[Cuemaster98]

"if you really believe this, you must be a follower and that is really ashame because I though you were much more than that."

Craig..did you really have to add this line in your post? You wonder why...there's alway drama in threads...what happen to respect for other views other than yours? If you really believe in integrity, respect and is a forward thinker with an open mind than please post what you preach. I think this would have been avoid, if you posted with respect for others.


Anyway, I guess in the end...the buyers will decide what is innovative and what will play better.....if the idea works...I'm sure we will all know about it.

I've seen and heard of some innovative cue constructions over the years of collecting cues that I'm going to test out for myself now. I now believe that selecting great wood is probably the most important factor in building a great playing cue and the secret is in knowing what is great wood. I'm sure construction methods used will be a factor but in my mind it's plays a minor role.

I'm new to cue building and have been testing out ideas on my own for about 2 years. I recently posted a question on whether using a phenolic tube to join the handle to the forearm was a good idea with no steel just glue (still not finish yet). I've asked if the void in the tubing would be an issue and received some great feedbacks. I'm sure this kind of idea was not new and it from an old 70's cue that I've seen broken at the joint. So I'm sure all these methods may have been tried years and years ago at one point or another but probably the buyer didn't care much for them. Still, I like to know for myself why this method doesn't work. Was thinking of doing what Craig has mentioned and thought to myself that it probably a method that few would do if any but guess not.

So my point, what someone think is innovative may be in fact what Eric said. "If you don't fully understand your subject to begin with, then you have no basis or foundation to expand from."

While for other cuebuilders who is uninformed like myself who think that I've just came up with a great idea, I would argue that it's innovation. To understand innovation...it means you have to already know what been done before and know why it's innovative. In this case, the subject is how to make a better playing cue.

So in my case, I may think it's innovative...but a experienced cuebuilder may look at it as inexperienced because he already know the result. If this method of construction worked...we would all have bought cuetech type of playing cue. Predator in their new line, started using phenolic to help stabilize movement of the joint pin but I think Bill McDaniel has been doing this for years and they called it "Innovation". LOL!!

I think I understand Eric point on innovation and I think Craig has his point as well minus the other comments. You would have to at least understand what have been achieved before you claim it's innovation. Craig is probably arguing that you don't need to understand how it work to be innovative..this is true but only if it plays better otherwise it's just different. So I think you guys are just making arguement on different prespective.

Good cue building to all of you.

Respectfully,
Duc.