could Xiaoting Pan compete with the Mens pros if...

caromcheese

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If Xiaoting Pan had Shane Van Boening or Charlie Bryant breaking for her would she be able to compete at 9 Ball with the top men pros and if no they why? Also John Schmidt once mentioned that to nullify the break a little it might be good to have a rule where if you make a ball off the break in 9 or 10 ball your opponent has to push out every time. It would slow the game down but would also even out the field a little.
 
I think she shoots as well as many of the men pros. I have no doubt she could be in the money in almost any mens' tournament if she had a designated breaker.
 
If Xiaoting Pan had Shane Van Boening or Charlie Bryant breaking for her would she be able to compete at 9 Ball with the top men pros and if no they why? Also John Schmidt once mentioned that to nullify the break a little it might be good to have a rule where if you make a ball off the break in 9 or 10 ball your opponent has to push out every time. It would slow the game down but would also even out the field a little.

Carom, Pan is probably competitive in almost any event, even on her own break, which ain't too shabby.

I had not heard that JS comment you mentioned, am not sure I understand it, and was wondering if you could explain in a little more detail. If you make a ball on the break it is still your table so how does your opponent even get to push out? Are you saying that if you make a ball on the snap your opponent takes over the table but then has to push out?
 
In a short race, she or several other female pros could beat the top men. It's happened before. In a long race, she or any other top female players would have no chance to beat the top men.

I think she shoots as well as many of the men pros. I have no doubt she could be in the money in almost any mens' tournament if she had a designated breaker.
 
If Xiaoting Pan had Shane Van Boening or Charlie Bryant breaking for her would she be able to compete at 9 Ball with the top men pros and if no they why?

I doubt it and here is why. I don't think she shoots as well as Chris Bartrum and he is not good enough to compete with the top men, he gets spotted by them. When you are talking about the "top men" you are talking about Souquet, Wu, Orcullo, Bustamante, Appleton, SVB, Alex, Yang, Chang, Corteza, and a few select others.

Not only does Pan not shoot as well as those guys, neither anymore does Johnny Archer or any other male pro in the USA besides SVB. You said Charlie Bryant could break for her, well Bryant himself cannot compete at the top of the mens tour so by default you are assuming that Pan actually "shoots" ALOT better then Bryant since he is not even close and you are asking if she could be at the elite level of the men that only one man in the entire USA can actually manage to get to these days.

Now does that mean Pan can never win a match against the above people with a designated breaker? Of course not, our game is such that upsets and people of lesser skill beating players of more skill is a common occurance. Bartrum gets spotted in big money matches, but in race lengths such as are played in the US-Open 9-ball he has a chance to beat anyone in the world and has proven that by getting really deep in the event one year and beating more then 1 world class elite player on route to that finish. But can Bartrum do it on a regular basis? He once came in deep in the event, world class elite players WIN that event, some multiple times in a row, and that deep finish is not a surprise, that is their norm and it does not surprise people to see one of those guys there in the final 6 or final 4 of an event like that. It surprised us to see Putnam there, and it proves the point that skill is not always the primary factor in matches being won in this sport.

The skill gap was shown clearly by TAR when Alex and SVB competed on the TAR table in 10-ball, a brutally tough table that they adjusted to quickly and shot remarkably well on for almost the whole match. SVB ran 2 6 packs and a 7 pack on that table in that match and he HAD to because Alex was shooting awesome. Raj and Oscar then went onto that table and they chopped up for 2 days straight in a brutally played match where I doubt either player were within 0.100 accustat of either SVB or Alex.

After that TAR match RAJ then went on to play in a tournament heavy with top pro level players the very next week played on normal cut diamonds with what is atm "standard" pro level conditions (read too easy) and he got into the finals. The tables having easy enough pockets blurred the lines of the true skill, the tight positional control and potting ability that the TAR table required was not required in that event and as such a big break and some sloppy but "good enough" play could get you through racks, through the short matches, and through opponents.

Also John Schmidt once mentioned that to nullify the break a little it might be good to have a rule where if you make a ball off the break in 9 or 10 ball your opponent has to push out every time. It would slow the game down but would also even out the field a little.

You don't need to fix the break, you need to fix the game. Do what I have mentioned constantly on here and put the pro events on the new upcomming 10-foot Diamond tables with 4 1/8 inch pockets and make the game 8-ball. Make the tournaments single elimination race to 13, alternate break, win by 2.

On conditions like that in the game of 8-ball the break can be a tool (and it should be, just like a good serve in tennis or a good drive in golf) but the break would not be the ultimate deciding factor as exceptional shooting skill would be a hugely important to actually getting out. Strategy, cueball control, potting ability, banking, all of these skill sets would see their imprtance ramp up hugely when compared to the break.

While a good break would still be useful it would not be the critical decider it is now and the disparity in breaking ability would be marginalized. Pool on a table like that would be akin to a golf course where a guy like Corey Pavin or Mike Weir have a chance, a course that rewards accurate shooting and clutch putting and limits the advantages of a huge drive. In alot of ways it would be like the Augusta of pool conditions.
 
I doubt it and here is why. I don't think she shoots as well as Chris Bartrum and he is not good enough to compete with the top men, he gets spotted by them. When you are talking about the "top men" you are talking about Souquet, Wu, Orcullo, Bustamante, Appleton, SVB, Alex, Yang, Chang, Corteza, and a few select others.

Not only does Pan not shoot as well as those guys, neither anymore does Johnny Archer or any other male pro in the USA besides SVB. You said Charlie Bryant could break for her, well Bryant himself cannot compete at the top of the mens tour so by default you are assuming that Pan actually "shoots" ALOT better then Bryant since he is not even close and you are asking if she could be at the elite level of the men that only one man in the entire USA can actually manage to get to these days.

Now does that mean Pan can never win a match against the above people with a designated breaker? Of course not, our game is such that upsets and people of lesser skill beating players of more skill is a common occurance. Bartrum gets spotted in big money matches, but in race lengths such as are played in the US-Open 9-ball he has a chance to beat anyone in the world and has proven that by getting really deep in the event one year and beating more then 1 world class elite player on route to that finish. But can Bartrum do it on a regular basis? He once came in deep in the event, world class elite players WIN that event, some multiple times in a row, and that deep finish is not a surprise, that is their norm and it does not surprise people to see one of those guys there in the final 6 or final 4 of an event like that. It surprised us to see Putnam there, and it proves the point that skill is not always the primary factor in matches being won in this sport.

The skill gap was shown clearly by TAR when Alex and SVB competed on the TAR table in 10-ball, a brutally tough table that they adjusted to quickly and shot remarkably well on for almost the whole match. SVB ran 2 6 packs and a 7 pack on that table in that match and he HAD to because Alex was shooting awesome. Raj and Oscar then went onto that table and they chopped up for 2 days straight in a brutally played match where I doubt either player were within 0.100 accustat of either SVB or Alex.

After that TAR match RAJ then went on to play in a tournament heavy with top pro level players the very next week played on normal cut diamonds with what is atm "standard" pro level conditions (read too easy) and he got into the finals. The tables having easy enough pockets blurred the lines of the true skill, the tight positional control and potting ability that the TAR table required was not required in that event and as such a big break and some sloppy but "good enough" play could get you through racks, through the short matches, and through opponents.



You don't need to fix the break, you need to fix the game. Do what I have mentioned constantly on here and put the pro events on the new upcomming 10-foot Diamond tables with 4 1/8 inch pockets and make the game 8-ball. Make the tournaments single elimination race to 13, alternate break, win by 2.

On conditions like that in the game of 8-ball the break can be a tool (and it should be, just like a good serve in tennis or a good drive in golf) but the break would not be the ultimate deciding factor as exceptional shooting skill would be a hugely important to actually getting out. Strategy, cueball control, potting ability, banking, all of these skill sets would see their imprtance ramp up hugely when compared to the break.

While a good break would still be useful it would not be the critical decider it is now and the disparity in breaking ability would be marginalized. Pool on a table like that would be akin to a golf course where a guy like Corey Pavin or Mike Weir have a chance, a course that rewards accurate shooting and clutch putting and limits the advantages of a huge drive. In alot of ways it would be like the Augusta of pool conditions.

I agree with you about the break should not be the deciding factor in a match. But Alex and Shane played on a table with fresh cloth which means the pockets play much easier. Oscar and Raj instead played on a table with a cloth which had quite a lot of playing resulting on the pockets playing much harder..
 
No chance?

It's already happened.

Of course there is semantics here, what's a long race, maybe 9 isn't long enough. Maybe top player only includes SVB or Archer

In a short race, she or several other female pros could beat the top men. It's happened before. In a long race, she or any other top female players would have no chance to beat the top men.
 
Her play and her break are top notch. She doesn't anybody to break for her, being such a tiny lady she can put amazing energy into her break... I think that shows that she really has her break mechanichs down to a science... She can sure crush those balls.

I think she plays equal or better than many male professionals, and she's actually better at tactics and strategy than most. Of course some will say she can't beat so-and-so player, who happens to be a top tier player that has been playing almost as long as she's been alive (I might have underwear older than her), so she can't compete with men... Well there are some male players she can't beat, but in reality most pro male players can't beat those same examples, so that comparison doesn't mean anything.

I think it will be really interestng to see how she and the other top female players will be doing once they get a few more years of play under their belt, assuming they continue to play. Maybe we'll see a better mixture of men in women in tournament play, which I think would be great.
 
But Alex and Shane played on a table with fresh cloth which means the pockets play much easier. Oscar and Raj instead played on a table with a cloth which had quite a lot of playing resulting on the pockets playing much harder..

Alex and Shane were not bobbling many balls in when they were shooting, they were splitting the pocket and when you are doing that the pockets playing a little tigher to a sloppily hit ball is largely moot. The pockets on the older cloth were still taking cleanly hit balls and I am pretty sure Alex and SVB still would have shot pretty awesome on that table in a match right after SVB and Alex had it gotten set up because they were hitting the shots clean once they got the hang of the table.
 
If Xiaoting Pan had Shane Van Boening or Charlie Bryant breaking for her would she be able to compete at 9 Ball with the top men pros and if no they why? Also John Schmidt once mentioned that to nullify the break a little it might be good to have a rule where if you make a ball off the break in 9 or 10 ball your opponent has to push out every time. It would slow the game down but would also even out the field a little.

really really?
 
I heard Schmidt say that a while back while doing guest commentary during a match. He was talking about how he matches up with SVB and that he thinks he could beat SVB if the following happens. Say I break and make a ball, I don't get to shoot again but then you have to push out. You cannot shoot, you must push out just as if I came up dry and you were Snookered. Then I get the option to shoot or make you take it. If I come up dry on the break then I have to push out. I basically makes the game more about strategy then about having a monster break like SVB. I'm not personally saying they should make this a rule change but it would be interesting to see a Tournament try this rule change.
 
Since Bartrum has said repeatedly that he would play any female in a long race, somebody should make it happen. Say Xiaoting, Ga Young Kim, Ouschan, etc. vs. Bartrum race to 100 in a TAR match. I'd like to see it just to see if he is right.
 
Since Bartrum has said repeatedly that he would play any female in a long race, somebody should make it happen. Say Xiaoting, Ga Young Kim, Ouschan, etc. vs. Bartrum race to 100 in a TAR match. I'd like to see it just to see if he is right.

Like all three of them? Kim plays til he gets to 33. Then Pan plays til he gets to 66. Then Jasmin plays til he wins?

I'll take the girls.
 
I know many won't like to hear this but imo if the top seven or eight women players worldwide (China included) played in men's tournaments on a regular basis they would frequently cash high in the money and one of them (probably Si Meng) would eventually win one. The very best women players today are equal to all but the best men players, probably the same skill level as the second echelon pros. I'm talking about tournament pool here, not long races. The women are more conditioned to play Races to 9 and rarely play long sets. There aren't that many guys in this country who have to beat Kelly Fisher, Allison, Karen, Jasmin, Ga Young or any one of the top four Chinese women.
 
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If Xiaoting Pan had Shane Van Boening or Charlie Bryant breaking for her would she be able to compete at 9 Ball with the top men pros and if no they why?

No, because her safety play, kicks, and consistency at running out would not be as good (though of course it depends in part on what you mean by "compete with the top pros." What I mean by compete with the top pros is "would be a top pro herself").
 
Since Bartrum has said repeatedly that he would play any female in a long race, somebody should make it happen. Say Xiaoting, Ga Young Kim, Ouschan, etc. vs. Bartrum race to 100 in a TAR match. I'd like to see it just to see if he is right.

I like Bartram in any of those match-ups.
 
I'd rather see Chris vs Shanelle, Chris goes to 100 and Shanelle goes to 8
and gets all the breaks:smile:
 
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