Cross-over banks to the corner

[3RAILKICK]

How do YOU hit them when the OB sits (for example) near center table or maybe a diamond in towards the side, while away from the end rail 2 to 3 diamonds. The cross-over CB approaches such that the OB is hit about 1/3 to maybe 2/3 ball full.

I send them (mostly) long, but also short. And MANY of them(especially when the OB almost goes)(at least looked like it had a chance) clak-clak double kiss.

They seem to go long crossing over with the CB straight rolling or with some inside. They seem to shorten a little using outside. I don't make this shot too often.

CueTable Help

Any rules of thumb or just hit a lot of them until they start to go?


-just another of the shots that I can't make well enough.

Thanks for any comments.

Take care

 

[millcityfats]

I was always told if the cue ball and object line up into the face of a pocket it's a double kiss. I believe Freddy Bentivegna also states something very similar in his book and DVD's. I've pretty much followed that principle and it hasn't failed me yet.

What kind of English if any at all do you usually apply to these shots? Personally I'll usually throw them with English; So I'll either create too much angle then kill it, or create too little of an angle and throw it. That for the most part 95% of the time eliminates double kisses for me.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think the best way to practice shots like this is to set up a shot from the family of shots and practice it exactly until you understand all the ways it can be varied. Then try a different position from the same family of shots. Expect to take 10 to 20 shots from each position. If you try to also get various cue ball positions, expect to spend half an hour on each position. Use tailor's chalk or paper reinforcements to repeat precisely each position.

I assume that you are already aware of how speed, angle and spin on the cue ball will affect the shots.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I was always told if the cue ball and object line up into the face of a pocket it's a double kiss. .....

This is only true for some positions and a large part of learning banks for one pocket (and bank pool) is figuring out whether there is really a kiss and if there is how to avoid it.

 

[dr_dave]

I was always told if the cue ball and object line up into the face of a pocket it's a double kiss.

If people are interested in several ways to detect and avoid double kisses with bank shots, a collection of videos on this topic can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#double​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I assume that you are already aware of how speed, angle and spin on the cue ball will affect the shots.

I think it is important to have a complete understanding of all important kick and bank effects. Many people miss kicks and banks (even when using "systems") because they don't have the necessary understanding of when and how to make adjustments. FYI to people who are interested, I have a complete summary of the important kick and bank effects (with demonstrations and resources) here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects​

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: Obviously, as Bob suggests, practice is the only way to build the practical skills necessary to apply knowledge of the effects.

 

[pool101]

How do YOU hit them when the OB sits (for example) near center table or maybe a diamond in towards the side, while away from the end rail 2 to 3 diamonds. The cross-over CB approaches such that the OB is hit about 1/3 to maybe 2/3 ball full.

I send them (mostly) long, but also short. And MANY of them(especially when the OB almost goes)(at least looked like it had a chance) clak-clak double kiss.

They seem to go long crossing over with the CB straight rolling or with some inside. They seem to shorten a little using outside. I don't make this shot too often.

CueTable Help

Any rules of thumb or just hit a lot of them until they start to go?


-just another of the shots that I can't make well enough.

Thanks for any comments.

Take care

http://www.youtube.com/user/pool2021?feature=mhw5#p/a/u/1/ybDcTtXNbUk
At about the 7 minute mark I show a little on crossover banks.
Like Bob said get some paper reinforcers and set up the shot, I would start with a dead bank then move the cueball out off the dead bank as in the video. Stay with center cueball first and find the aim point that pockets the ball, adding english changes the aim point.
Mark

 

[scottjen26]

As others have said, practice a typical shot with hole reinforcements or chalk marks over and over with different angles, speeds, and spins until you can make it or come very close consistently. Then move the balls so it's the same type of shot but from a different position and try again.

That being said, in my opinion none of the three shots you diagrammed would I consider easy, I don't think I'd make 2 or 3 out of 10 consistently, although shooting the same shot multiple times would help me zero in pretty quickly. Cutting across the ball imparts a little english, which is what you want in this case, but if not accounted for is probably what is making your banks end up closer to the end rail.

When I shoot crossover banks, usually the "easy" ones where the ball is near the side rail and close to the side or corner pocket, I generally don't use any english on the cue ball since the object ball picks up a little "helping" english by cutting across it. If anything I would hit it thicker and use inside english to put a little extra turn on the ball off the rail, but only if position required it. And if there is a kiss in the shot, you can generally beat it with draw or follow, speed, or change the thickness of the hit and compensate with english. Shot 1 looks like it might have a kiss in either spot, but shots 2 and 3 would not if hit normally.

Hope that helps, good luck!
Scott

 

[Tramp Steamer]

On those pesky short cross-railers try center-ball, maybe a tad above center and hit the OB thin. The closer to the end-rail the thinner the hit.
What you are doing is imparting colision induced spin to the OB that will send it off the rail and into the pocket.
Speed of the cue ball is very important here. Too fast and the OB won't take the spin from whitey. Too slow and the OB will die on the rail.
Practice is the key here, but make yourself cut them a bit thinner than you're used to and see what happens.
This, and many more shot making tips, can be found in my new DVD, "How To Play One Pocket and Other Dangerous Games". You'll enjoy the forward by "Two Tooth" Sally. It was done shortly before her passing, may she RIP.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Thanks to everyone for your advice and suggestions.

And Tramp........ah, nevermind-I know better than to ask. I'll watch for the DVD.

Take care

 

[Slide Rule]

Cross Corner Experiment

First of all, let me say that I am a retired engineer and approach this problem in an unusual way.

A very old cross corner experiment

Sometimes you hit a brick wall in approaching shots. This was my case in cross bank shots. Others could make them to greater or lesser degrees of certainty dependent on overall skill level. I wanted to know how but did not have a source of information. If I could see the line for known good shots, I could learn them normally. The problem was, I couldn’t even get them close. So I designed an experiment to exchange time for information.

I tried to hold many variables constant. All shots were to be made with 1 tip inside english. Object balls were placed incrementally down the side rail. Cue ball about 1 diamond from the object. Place the cue ball in relation to contact with the object ball and note the line to the from rail and specifically the diamond value. Data taken from the long rail is a larger number than the variance at the cue ball. I could observe if the object ball hit the point near the half diamond interval. Now capture data on shots that were repeatable, or nearly made and put them in a tabular format. Thinking, shooting, and analysis time to result resulted in first usable results.

Sorry about the commas, but chart data tends to scrunch to the left.


First Useable Results:
To From
0,,,,,0
5,,,,10
10,,,22
15,,,37
20,,,54

Final results:
To From Offset
0,,,,,0,,,,,0
5,,,10.8,,0.8
10,,22,,,2
15,,36,,,7
20,,54,,14
25,,80,,30

It appeared that the From Values were 2x the To Values plus a nonlinear Offset Value. This leads to the final result of Offset Data being exponential. This provided lines to see the shot well enough to make a percentage of them. Shooting, analysis, curve fitting and retest developed the final results. Offset data was the specific information that was useful in a match. I could interpolate the amount of offset in game situations by remembering the sequence of the offset values (0, 0.8, 2, 7, 14 and 30). I used this system for a short time until my by eye shot percentage exceeded its results. This process could be repeated for center ball, or outside english to name two.

And now, you will be more confused.

There will be a test at 6:00

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is an article from the July 1997 issue of Billiards Digest that discusses the rule(s) of thumb and how to avoid the kiss if the rule says that there might be one. It also suggests a methodical way for you to study kisses.

 

[freddy the beard]

Beard's eye view

Here is the article I wrote for Inside Pool for the July/August 2010 issue. More comprehensive coverage can be found in my books and DVDs.
Beard

Following is the article text:

Romancing the "Stone"
To kiss or not to kiss.

Determining whether a bank shot lays in the "kiss" zone is often misunderstood, and usually winds up as an educated guess. In the following diagrams I have outlined exactly when a bank cannot normally be made using a rolling with or without english. In diagram #1, I deal with the shorter angle cross-corners. If the straight-in angle of the cueball and object ball is lined up and aiming into the pocket facing, the shot is a certain kiss. Left or right english, follow, center, or draw is not going to help you beat that kiss. With a slight angle adjustment, as per diagram #2, lined up to the middle of the back of the pocket, the bank can now be easily made with rolling or center ball, no english.
Diagram #3 is another variation that must be considered. It involves crossing, or passing-over, the object ball from a much more severe angle. Rather than calculate off of a straight-in angle as per dia.#1 & 2, the kiss/no kiss reference point is determined by lining up the actual cut angle needed to make the bank. If an imaginary line from the center of the cueball, extending thru the cut area on the object ball, continues into the middle of the back of the pocket, the kiss is "on." If the line instead, is aiming at the short/bottom rail, you can go ahead and shoot the shot with impunity. Provided of course you are using a natural rolling ball, center ball, left english in this case, or draw. Right hand english when the bank is "on" could result in a kiss.

As an aside to all this, about three years ago I was commentating on an accu-stats Bank pool match that involved Francisco Bustamonte. A bank came up similar to diagram #1 and Busty pondered over it and finally decided to try and make it. The outcome was predictable, he caught a kiss and it cost him the game. The next day Busty was playing a One pocket match and I was again commentating for accu-stats. At a key juncture in the match, the same shot came up, and if he could have made the bank he would have gotten behind the balls and ran out. He apparently remembered the problems he had with the shot the day before, so he hesitated and eventually played a passive safety and lost that game too.
I looked upon his distress sympathetically, and so I cornered Busty after the match and showed him how the shot could be made. Oh, -- I didn't bother to tell ya'll that it was possible to beat the dia.#1 kiss? I have beaten every kiss I have ever encountered in my whole life, save for my first two wives and those ugly divorces. Sorry, but to explain the solution properly I would have to show it on a table in person. Suffice to say that it requires a masse'. What I did release should hold ya'll for awhile.

 

[jay helfert]

This is only true for some positions and a large part of learning banks for one pocket (and bank pool) is figuring out whether there is really a kiss and if there is how to avoid it.

Bingo! The kiss is there but it can often be avoided with proper use of english and speed. Sometimes you just can't duck the kiss, so you must find another shot or a safety.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Here is the article I wrote for Inside Pool for the July/August 2010 issue. More comprehensive coverage can be found in my books and DVDs.
Beard

Following is the article text:

Romancing the "Stone"
To kiss or not to kiss.

Determining whether a bank shot lays in the "kiss" zone is often misunderstood, and usually winds up as an educated guess. In the following diagrams I have outlined exactly when a bank cannot normally be made using a rolling with or without english. In diagram #1, I deal with the shorter angle cross-corners. If the straight-in angle of the cueball and object ball is lined up and aiming into the pocket facing, the shot is a certain kiss. Left or right english, follow, center, or draw is not going to help you beat that kiss. With a slight angle adjustment, as per diagram #2, lined up to the middle of the back of the pocket, the bank can now be easily made with rolling or center ball, no english.
Diagram #3 is another variation that must be considered. It involves crossing, or passing-over, the object ball from a much more severe angle. Rather than calculate off of a straight-in angle as per dia.#1 & 2, the kiss/no kiss reference point is determined by lining up the actual cut angle needed to make the bank. If an imaginary line from the center of the cueball, extending thru the cut area on the object ball, continues into the middle of the back of the pocket, the kiss is "on." If the line instead, is aiming at the short/bottom rail, you can go ahead and shoot the shot with impunity. Provided of course you are using a natural rolling ball, center ball, left english in this case, or draw. Right hand english when the bank is "on" could result in a kiss.

As an aside to all this, about three years ago I was commentating on an accu-stats Bank pool match that involved Francisco Bustamonte. A bank came up similar to diagram #1 and Busty pondered over it and finally decided to try and make it. The outcome was predictable, he caught a kiss and it cost him the game. The next day Busty was playing a One pocket match and I was again commentating for accu-stats. At a key juncture in the match, the same shot came up, and if he could have made the bank he would have gotten behind the balls and ran out. He apparently remembered the problems he had with the shot the day before, so he hesitated and eventually played a passive safety and lost that game too.
I loooked upon his distress sympathetically, and so I cornered Busty after the match and showed him how the shot could be made. Oh, -- I didn't bother to tell ya'll that it was possible to beat the dia.#1 kiss? I have beaten every kiss I have ever encountered in my whole life, save for my first two wives and those ugly divorces. Sorry, but to explain the solution properly I would have to show it on a table in person. Suffice to say that it requires a masse'. What I did release should hold ya'll for awhile.

Thanks Freddie

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Bingo! The kiss is there but it can often be avoided with proper use of english and speed. Sometimes you just can't duck the kiss, so you must find another shot or a safety.

Kind of like playing spin the bottle and you land on the ugliest girl in your eighth grade class. Just grin and bear it.