CTE aiming.

...Thank you to Creedo for reminding me of this shot that Bert Kinister demonstrates on one of his videos.

CueTable Help



The "paper diagram" says that the 10 ball must go to rail and nowhere near the pocket. Try it and watch the 10 go in the pocket almost every time.

I personally feel that a shot like this is one part of understanding how aiming systems like CTE work.
Maybe this is a good test to determine if a person will be successful with CTE or not. When I try the shot, with the aim you suggest, I drive it into the rail every time. Maybe that's why I don't like CTE. If my goal is to hit the ball squarely, that is what I focus on, and that's what I do (within a small margin of error). I've tried to train myself to not allow subconsciously adjustments or doubts to affect my aim and stroke (although; I'm not always successful, especially when I'm not focused). Now, if my goal is to pocket the 10-ball, I certainly wouldn't tell myself to aim to hit it squarely. IMO, that is ridiculous. I would visualize the required contact point, the required ghost ball position, and see the required angle and line of the shot. Then I would bring my cue down into this required line of aim. Then I would do my best to focus on delivering a straight stroke. Maybe that's why I don't like align-and-pivot approaches like CTE, where the process and extra steps seem unnatural and artificial to me.

Another good example for me, where subconscious adjustments are dangerous, is a back cut*. When I aim a back cut and get down into my stance, the amount of cut often doesn't look right. If I let me subconscious take over, and adjust my aim, or swoop my stroke, I will usually overcut the shot. On these shots, I've learned to trust my aiming process, force myself to not adjust, and focus on delivering a straight stroke.

Some say tomato and others use CTE.

Regards,
Dave

* from my online glossary:
back cut: a cut shot where the cue ball is shot well away from the target pocket (e.g., when the cue ball is much closer to the target pocket rail than the object ball). In other words, the butt of the cue passes over one of the cushions adjacent to the target pocket. The more perpendicular the cue is to that cushion, the greater the back cut. In other words, a shot into a “blind pocket.”​
 
Not any conscious adjustments. I am deliberately sighting and even pointing my ferrule just past the edge of the ball on each shot during the video to illustrate where I am sighting.

Now, Creedo has said that his frame by frame analysis indicates that my final shot/stick line is not always exactly on the line I was looking at when getting down on the ball. Sometimes the line was just to the inside of the edge and sometimes to the outside of the edge.

But the main thing I wanted to impart was that I was deliberately doing the same exact motion when sighting and getting into my stance every time. Now if there is a pivot, hip or otherwise then it's happening automatically. I THINK that since I do use one of Hal Houle's fractional aiming systems otherwise that this has MAYBE trained me in doing whatever pivot needs to be there - but I don't know this - I just use the sight-get down-and whack 'em method without thinking about whether I am on the right line or not.

Here is another nice puzzle for the geometry fans who think that GHOST BALL diagrams explain everything. Thank you to Creedo for reminding me of this shot that Bert Kinister demonstrates on one of his videos.

CueTable Help



The "paper diagram" says that the 10 ball must go to rail and nowhere near the pocket. Try it and watch the 10 go in the pocket almost every time.

I personally feel that a shot like this is one part of understanding how aiming systems like CTE work. Obviously just about any of us can line up on this ball as if the cue ball is going to hit the ten full in the face. If the two balls are much closer together then it's impossible to make the 10 if you line up to hit it head on. So why does this work with 8 feet between the balls????

Anyway, feel free to make a diagram with high level equations and graphs explaining it.

I just got down and made the shot like five out of seven times. Thank you Creedo for reminding me of this technique as I am sure it will come in handy.

Here's something you might try.Take a ghostball aim trainer device or make something that shows you where the ghostball is.
Now do your shots again and you just might find out that your making adjustments and not realizing it.I know the ghostball isnt the correct aimline for all shots but its close.
That shot where your running the ball down the rail if i where to shoot straight at it' it would probably bank toward the bottom corner.
Now when i place the cue ball a little closer to the rail.
Lets say a 5 degree cut and then a straight in shot' the shot picture is almost Identical.

Take that same shot move the cue ball a little closer lets say 2 feet away from the object ball . You wont come close to making the shot.

Depth perception plays a trick on are eyes.Shots that look like the should be hit thinner will actually be made by a thicker look through the eyes at a
distance if that makes sence.
 
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Just curious: since pocket location is seemingly irrelevant for CTE to work, does that mean it would be equally effective on this table?

table.gif
 
***********
I figured out CTE. It works analogously to a TDC (torpedo data computer) on WWII subs.
*******************

For those interested in the torpedo computations, there is a reasonable explaination of the problem here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer

However, it should be kept in mind that the destructive capability of submarines of that era was largely attributable to their stealth and liberal use of the deck gun.

The extrapolation to CTE eludes me, but this may be the result of a faulty internal gyro.
 
Just curious: since pocket location is seemingly irrelevant for CTE to work, does that mean it would be equally effective on this table?

table.gif

The pocket is part of the set up.You have to know if the shot is on the thick side or thin side.
Put the pockets any where you want and im sure it could be address with cte.
 
Here's something you might try.Take a ghostball aim trainer device or make something that shows you where the ghostball is.
Now do your shots again and you just might find out that your making adjustments and not realizing it.I know the ghostball isnt the correct aimline for all shots but its close.
That shot where your running the ball down the rail if i where to shoot straight at it' it would probably bank toward the bottom corner.
Now when i place the cue ball a little closer to the rail.
Lets say a 5 degree cut and then a straight in shot' the shot picture is almost Identical.

Take that same shot move the cue ball a little closer lets say 2 feet away from the object ball . You wont come close to making the shot.

Depth perception play a trick on are eyes.Shots that look like the should be hit thinner will actually made by a thicker look through the eyes at a
distance if that makes sence.

8pack (and Dr. Dave):

Exactly! Distance has everything to do with this shot. Place that cue ball on the same line, but closer to the object ball, and you won't make the shot, because any "adjustments" you try to do (e.g. pivoting or steering) will need to be so extreme as to be readily obvious to you. But pull that cue ball back to the original location, and distance plays a trick on you. The very slightest "adjustment" (e.g. as little as 1/8" in your back hand -- imperceptible to your eyes out there by the cue's shaft) plays a huge role in the applied "cut," enough to pocket that ball. That's why I recommended a LaserStroke to John, by the way, so that the mind is now preoccupied with something else besides the subconscious "want to pocket the ball" thing -- that is, keeping the laser line painted dead center on both the cue ball and the object ball. The LaserStroke will redirect the mind to focus on something other than that pocket in the background.

Like Dr. Dave, when I try this shot -- with the purposeful intent to hit dead center on the 10-ball -- I send that 10-ball into the rail every time. If I want to focus on hitting dead-center on the object ball, that's exactly what I do. I focus dead center, and I hit dead center. The ball doesn't pocket. I guess the reason may be that I place so emphasis on my fundamentals, to make sure I stroke straight, that I don't let my subconscious mind interfere with the intent. Snooker fundamentals goes a long way to ensuring no steering or pivoting before or during the stroke.

Anytime shots like these come up, where I suspect the mind may play a role, I whip out the LaserStroke. And it proves out what I suspect all along -- the mind has a LOT to do with these "yeah? explain this one, Mr. Science" challenges.

Great post,
-Sean
 
I guess I can safely hop back in the pool.

The kinister shot I had in mind (that JB was quoting) is different, but I remember kinister also had a shot going into the rail as JB diagrammed. It works on the same principle. It may have been a hair straighter. It worked with a touch of subconscious steering, but also played on the fact that OB can hit the long rail on the way into the pocket and still drop.

Here's the kinister shot I was thinking of. It freaked me out when I started practicing it. I was putting in these balls all day.

You are advised to aim it by hitting it straight in the face even though it's not straight-in (slight cut away from the long rail). This should drive the OB into the short rail near the pocket. But instead it goes in the pocket. You can make a sincere effort to drill it into the short rail, but if you halfway believe that the ball will defy you and go into the pocket... that seems to be exactly what happens.

CueTable Help



Unfortunately for John (who has had a lot of patience helping me with CTE) I think this point hurts his cause. Dave's entire argument against CTE is it doesn't work unless you let your subconscious mind take over and steer you into the correct line of aim. That's exactly what's happening on the kinister shots. You aren't literally hitting these balls full, your brain is steering your arm midstroke so that you cut them. Or your brain is tricking your eyes into seeing the slight cut as a straight on hit.

In Dave's case, I guess his arm is refusing to get the memo. I'd be curious what his results are doing my diagrammed shot.
 
It really boggles my mind how so many people are on the subconscious bandwagon. :confused: Hurry up with that DVD Stan! Folks is trippin...
 
***********
I figured out CTE. It works analogously to a TDC (torpedo data computer) on WWII subs.
*******************

For those interested in the torpedo computations, there is a reasonable explaination of the problem here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer

However, it should be kept in mind that the destructive capability of submarines of that era was largely attributable to their stealth and liberal use of the deck gun.

The extrapolation to CTE eludes me, but this may be the result of a faulty internal gyro.
Come on! Faulty gyros were only responsible for sinking the launching submarine. The magnetic detonators were what really hampered US tonnage counts and that only affected the captains who refused to turn them off. Oh ya, and the whole crushing contact detonator debacle. So you also had to shoot the fish into the target at an angle instead of 90 degrees into the hull.

The TDCs worked by observing the change in enemy ship angle on the bow, distance, and estimated speed taken along with your own speed and the speed of the torpedo. When you move your head side to side it's the equivalent to taking another set of estimates to fine tune the TDC solution. Sure, here you're not talking about hitting moving targets and we want the OB to head a certain direction but I think the analogy is fairly good. Observing how the two balls shift relative to each other and relative to the observer is where the magic happens. It's not a angular POV rotation like spideys rotating regridded pool table diagrams. Another explanation is triangulation. By taking two measurements in a roughly perpendicular direction from your angle to the target you can get a very good estimation of the target distance by the angular shift between the two measurements.
 
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It really boggles my mind how so many people are on the subconscious bandwagon. :confused: Hurry up with that DVD Stan! Folks is trippin...

...and this post is Exhibit "A" of why folks have trouble getting into "the zone," of shooting shots effortlessly. They want to engage the conscious/analytical mind on every shot, and not trust the subconscious mind.

"I want to throw a baseball into my friend's waiting catcher's mitt. Wait now, I need to be 'in control.' I have to engage the conscious mind and analyze every single detail, calculate the movement of every single muscle, the amount of rotation of every single joint, how much to pivot my hips..."

Just throw the damn ball! Trust your ability to do it. Don't think. The subconscious mind is a storehouse of all these details, of all these muscle memories. Trust it. To not do so, is trippin'.

EDIT: An apropos definition of the word "trippin'" might be that one is trippin' over oneself, letting oneself get in one's own way.

-Sean
 
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When i have straight in shots or close to straight in shots i always extend
the line past the object ball.
If you aim it by going cb to ob only and not extending the line past the object ball it may look straight but if you go past the object ball you will see that your not actually aiming straight in.
 

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...and this post is Exhibit "A" of why folks have trouble getting into "the zone," of shooting shots effortlessly. They want to engage the conscious/analytical mind on every shot, and not trust the subconscious mind.

"I want to throw a baseball into my friend's waiting catcher's mitt. Wait now, I need to be 'in control.' I have to engage the conscious mind and analyze every single detail, calculate the movement of every single muscle, the amount of rotation of every single joint, how much to pivot my hips..."

Just throw the damn ball! Trust your ability to do it. Don't think. The subconscious mind is a storehouse of all these details, of all these muscle memories. Trust it. To not do so, is trippin'.

EDIT: An apropos definition of the word "trippin'" might be that one is trippin' over oneself, letting oneself get in one's own way.

-Sean

Well said, Sean.

Systems (CTE included) are just tools to get you started on the right path to programming your subconscious mind. Instructors are there to explain what tools are available and how to use them. Neither is anything you want to employ for a lifetime.:sad:

Roger
 
Well said, Sean.

Systems (CTE included) are just tools to get you started on the right path to programming your subconscious mind. Instructors are there to explain what tools are available and how to use them. Neither is anything you want to employ for a lifetime.:sad:

Roger

Just curious, Rog... what do you charge for CTE lessons?
 
...and this post is Exhibit "A" of why folks have trouble getting into "the zone," of shooting shots effortlessly. They want to engage the conscious/analytical mind on every shot, and not trust the subconscious mind.

"I want to throw a baseball into my friend's waiting catcher's mitt. Wait now, I need to be 'in control.' I have to engage the conscious mind and analyze every single detail, calculate the movement of every single muscle, the amount of rotation of every single joint, how much to pivot my hips..."

Just throw the damn ball! Trust your ability to do it. Don't think. The subconscious mind is a storehouse of all these details, of all these muscle memories. Trust it. To not do so, is trippin'.

EDIT: An apropos definition of the word "trippin'" might be that one is trippin' over oneself, letting oneself get in one's own way.

-Sean

Well said, Sean.

Systems (CTE included) are just tools to get you started on the right path to programming your subconscious mind. Instructors are there to explain what tools are available and how to use them. Neither is anything you want to employ for a lifetime.:sad:

Roger

Roger I usually don't agree with your posts but I see the merit in what you stated. As a poor player by AZ standards, for the time being I am just happy to be sinking a lot more balls. Maybe one day I will stop trippin and be able to just eyeball shots in the hole.
 
This "there's nothing remotely like Perfect Aim" stuff's gotta stop

Hi there Roger,
I showed this to Jerry when I was playing in the US OPEN. He really liked what he saw. This is absolutely not the same thing or Jerry would have said so. In fact as I was showing him this he called Corey Deuel over and wanted me to show him right away. Corey's match was up so he had to go but Jerry was impressed with what he saw.

I have alot of respect for Jerry. One of the top if not the top pool teacher in the country. I got my first and only pool lesson from this wizard.

Great Guy also.

Please have the facts right before you assume and put it on the internet. Do some research.

I'm sure if I showed Perfect Aim to Buddy he would say the same thing.

When the new Perfect Aim Complete video comes out and you get a chance to see it you will know then that it is not the same as what you think.

Once the new video is done everyone will know that Perfect Aim is totally uique from anything out there. It's tough to learn sometimes but simple to understand once you grasp the simple concept.

Perfect Aim Complete will take care of this. But I will still offer free phone help to anyone that has any trouble understanding or learning Perfect Aim.

I'm just trying to give a wonderful gift to pool. It's called Perfect Aim.

Geno:

Where do I begin? First, it's not my business to get between you and Roger (and frankly, whatever differences you and Roger have, are between you two).

But one thing that really stuck in my craw, are the statements in your post I bolded above.

Now I'm not sure if Roger has reviewed your material or not. Again, that's between you and he. But one thing that *is* abundantly clear, is that you yourself did not do your own research, before making your grandiose claims. I definitely recall past "Perfect Aim" threads where it was brought to your attention that your material is *at least* passingly familiar to the material that Richard Kranicki wrote in his great work, "Answer to a Pool Player's Prayers" written over a decade ago. ("Decade ago," by the way, is the publish/release date of Richard Kranicki's material. Richard actually worked with Willie Mosconi on this material while he was still alive [there's a forward in the book dedicated to the memory of Willie, as well as his wife Flora, with pictures]. So the material actually pre-dates Willie Mosconi's passing in 1993.)

I know you've been posting about Perfect Aim for, what now, almost two years? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) And it came out pretty early on that your material at least "passively resembled" the material covered in Richard Kranicki's book.

For someone to make the suggestion to do research before posting, you've got some cajones, my friend. If *I* came out with a product, and someone informed me that it resembled another product that was already long out on the market, I'd sure as heck go investigate that other product PERSONALLY (key operative word) to make sure I wasn't copying or plagiarizing. I would've purchased a copy of Richard Kranicki's work myself and studied it.

And, although not having a product out on the market like you, I did. Three years ago, in fact, I purchased a copy of Richard Kranicki's work, and found it "eye opening" (forgive the pun). I also purchased your Perfect Aim DVD when it first came out (first edition). I still have both. I'm at break at work now, therefore I don't have access to my library at home at the moment. But if I were, I'd have attached to this post a photo of my copy of "Answer to a Pool Player's Prayers" next to my copy of your original edition of "Perfect Aim", and my personalized Delta-13 rack in the picture as well, as proof the photo really did come from me, that I really do own both works.

Having reviewed BOTH works, I can say that you DO NOT cover any new ground that is not covered by Richard Kranicki's decade-plus-old work, the latter of which actually covers more ground than what was covered in your original "Perfect Aim" DVD. I won't mention what I mean by "more ground," because it's not my job to spoon-feed -- this is YOUR job to make sure you're not copying, plagiarizing, or else putting a new wrapper on old material without attribution to the original author's work.

Relying on "a friend of a friend" scenario (e.g. your conversation with / presentation to Jerry Briesath) to tell you that your material "may" be similar to someone else's is not how it's done in copyright land. It is YOUR responsibility, not Jerry's or anyone else you show it to, to make sure it really is unique, that you're not just putting a new wrapper on old material without giving credit to the original author.

Normally I would've left this thread alone, relative to your Perfect Aim product. As a proprietor of a commercial product, you have the right to hawk your wares. I find it unfortunate that this whole Perfect Aim / head-eye-alignment issue even exists in pool, when it's a non-issue in other pocket-based cue sports (e.g. snooker, Russian Pyramid, etc.) because of the no-brainer focus on the required fundamentals for those more-precise pocket-based cue sports. However, you found an opportunity, and you're capitalizing on it. Good for you -- I do wish you luck.

But when you made the very bold, bordering-on-obscene-because-of-the-particular-circumstances suggestion for someone else to do his/her research, when you obviously haven't done your own by your own admittance (i.e. you haven't personally reviewed the "similar" work), I just *had* to pipe up. I'm not protecting Roger here; that's his business and he seems to me to be quite capable of holding his own. However, I am calling you out on your position of "doing research." You obviously haven't done yours, Gene, but instead you're hiding behind the "friend of a friend told me it was unique" facade. You need to do your research, Gene. It's called due diligence. And, although I'm personally not a copyright lawyer, I am a published author and I do know something about this area -- it's actually the law. Go pick yourself up a copy of Richard Kranicki's "Answer to a Pool Player's Prayers." I think you might be in for a bit of a shock.

Respectfully,
-Sean

P.S.: before you go into spiel of how I need to "get the upgrade" for my original copy of Perfect Aim, I need to warn you not to go there. I'm in Information Technologies, and I see this tact used by vendors all the time -- of getting on the "upgrade treadmill" because of how "awesome" the new edition is, when it's really a revenue stream. Don't go there. "Homey don't play that."
 
Steering the cue ball

In response to Sfleinen’s post 580 I think that the subconscious is something like a trained animal. We train it to use different stroking techniques with many variations such as a punch stroke, a draw stroke, a draw with English etc.

When we do not tell the subconscious what type of stroke to use it selects what it thinks is best and this is often a combination of the strokes that have been used successfully in the past. Usually this works out quite well.

However in the process of executing one type of stroke other factors, such as the desire to pocket the ball, cause the subconscious to put in extra effort that results in steering the stroke. I call this “Irish” or those unnecessary arm and body movements that follow the stroke.

Superstitious behavior is basically unnecessary behavior that we come to believe is necessary to complete a task. It is easily observed in baseball players. One player may find that if they do not “wind the bat backwards” before stepping up to the plate that they cannot get a home run as often. In this way the superstitious behavior becomes something that is required for that person to play well. That is, they believe their unnecessary behavior is required and without it they get nervous and subsequently miss the shot.

It is “normal” for any person to add anything that might help with success and so our subconscious is continually looking for things that might help get the ball in the pocket. The only way that I know of to overcome this tendency to steer any type of ball in any type of game is to continually practice the desired techniques with attention to the idea that perfect practice (however it is defined) is the best behavior and to intentionally expose oneself to things that don’t work to learn that these things are actually harmful. For instance, a player who finds that the are consistently missing shots because they look up and watch the ball into the pocket (another form of unintentional steering) is to intentionally shoot this way for a few shots to see how this often results in over cutting the ball. Then go back to the previous (right) way of shooting. This teaches the subconscious to “stay down of the shot.”

Y.L. Hanin et al have some good ideas about how to get rid of bad habits as discussed in this reference.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/ChangingBadHabits.htm

The bottom line is that I think we all tend to steer the cue ball at nearly every opportunity unless we have a well trained subconscious that has found the best way to play. It makes no difference if it is CTE or any other system the subconscious is trying to help get that ball in the pocket.
 
Not really...........

Are you saying that CTE won't work unless it's used in conjunction with Perfect Aim?

Roger

Stan Shuffet has learned how Pefect Aim and said on the forum that he endorses it. He told me he uses it in conjuction with Pro one. From what I know Pro one and CTE are about almost the same.

I can't wait to get down Stans way. As an instructor I want to learn all I can so I can teach and as a player I want to improve my own game..

CTE and Perfect Aim are not the same.
 
Nunya. :wink:

Since you instruct on it - I was thinking maybe you're an expert on CTE mechanics. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're selling. You mentioned earlier in the thread you only teach beginning to intermediate students, so I doubt people approach you for CTE lessons. Total novices can't spell CTE and I'd spot them the TE.

So, I don't think you're talking from experience; rather, you're playing the role of a great antagonist if for no other reason than to "join the club."

I don't record myself too often; however, I have a few videos on the internet with me either running out or shooting in balls using CTE.

I'd love to see your technique (and every other antagonist in this thread). You, Dr. Dave and the others should man-up and post some youtube videos of CTEing some balls in the hole (or not). Let's check out your understanding of the topic of this thread.

Here are mine:

(shooting CTE on every shot):
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=101472594

(shooting CTE on every shot):
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=60234303

Pivoting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij38hYBti4c

Banking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd4qxOy-tJw

I'm not knocking nor am I being below-belt with this. I'm legitimately interested in seeing how you use CTE. Maybe then we'll get to the bottom of why you don't like it. It's uber-strange to me that you'd give CTE lessons when (as Austin Powers would say) it ain't your bag, baby. Otherwise, it'd be too much like giving golf lessons when you can't break 90.

;)
 
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yy

Just curious: since pocket location is seemingly irrelevant for CTE to work, does that mean it would be equally effective on this table?

table.gif

Y'all are getting hung up on the "pocket doesn't matter" part of this.

Of course the pocket matters in that it is part of the whole picture. But on a pool table the pockets are always fixed so you don't need to line up the object ball and the pocket in order to find a spot to aim for or a space to shoot into (ghost ball).

Instead you just need to know is it to the left or the right of ME.

So the answer is YES. CTE would work on this table.
 
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