CTE Stepping Cue Ball.

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
ok, then call them updates. Either way, it is making something better. If you have something good and there is a problem that needs to be corrected then a good builder corrects the problem on the existing product and for all subsequently made products. The MAIN point here is that Stan didn't take something and dump it on the market with no continuous improvement and study.

There is no such thing as a perfectly good system created by man. No matter what things can always be improved and since they can be improved then they were not perfect when created.

the key word is SERVICE. Stan provides the SERVICE for his students in the form of updates and improvements.

Regarding seatbelts, of course you EXPECT that they should work as designed. The car manufacturer and the engineers all thought it worked as designed when they built and sold the car. IF a flaw is discovered then they fix it and the fix is implemented for all cars going forward.

But, that's not really the point. The point is that Joey is spending his time INSULTING as you agree with him that he is DENIGRATING CTE and DENIGRATING Stan Shuffett, denigrating Hal Houle, denigrating EVERY PERSON who uses and is learning CTE, denigrating EVERY INSTRUCTOR who teaches CTE and related systems. DENIGRATING every professional player who says that they use CTE aiming.

And furthermore the updates/improvements are NOT bug fixes. They are literally ways to get even more accurately lined up than the previously awesome way to do it. The ONLY actual "fixes" ever put out were corrections when directions were misstated, such as saying this shot is A-inside when actually A-outside is the solution, or typos.

So Joey is trying to insult and in fact it's NOT an insult because the supplier is providing ongoing material support for the product he put out.

As opposed to say someone who puts out an aiming system and charges $25 for it and never bothers to continue developing and testing. Someone who leaves the industry and provides no support would be an example of an orphan method that MIGHT actually need more study and refinement but without someone doing that most ordinary users who are themselves not developers will be left with questions.

Stan on the other hand has always been available to anyone. Even Joey and you, without any need to purchase anything from him. Why that isn't applauded is beyond me. Agree with the efficacy of the system or not the commitment should be recognized. Calling someone a snake-oil salesman because you simply do not think that what they offer works is no different than me calling Joey a hack cuemaker because I don't like the color of his cues.

My point is that Joey and all the other knockers here are not contributing to the growth of pool when they spend time trying to tear down those that are using baseless claims and insults. I HATE Mike Hoang with every fiber of my being. I think that he is a criminal, based on the crime he committed against me and I think that the moves he makes are super shady. But I applaud his recent activity to arrange big matches and big tournaments. He is helping to keep this sport going and as a player and fan of pool I can recognize that and don't let my hate cause me to follow him around online where he is active with these matches and promotions and denigrate him by airing my grievances in those places.

Saying that a system doesn't work is not the same as proving that it doesn't. If Joey and others want to REALLY kill CTE then they need to prove that it doesn't work. But that requires more work than simply thinking of new ways to insult anyone who uses CTE aiming. Joey can wake up, fire off some insults, feel really good that he thought of "service packs" as an insult and go about his day savoring the "zinger" he threw. But that doesn't help this sport at all. You would think that a tip repairman would be out there encouraging everyone to play as much as possible, try everything, practice CTE until you need a new tip, give discounts to CTE users to encourage them to play enough to need tips more often. One would think that a person would easily see the synergies available.

Oh, but wait, this is a MORAL thing right? Joey, et al.... thinks that CTE is bogus and a waste of time/money to mess with and so ethically he is honor-bound to denigrate the method and all who teach and learn it. Joey thinks that people SHOULD play as much as possible but they should be doing drills and practicing whatever Joey's favorite "famous" instructor tells them to do. Well, then in that case we are back to PROVING that CTE is bogus so that all that needs to be done every time a CTE discussion pops up is to link to the proof. Wouldn't a person who honestly believes as Joey does and who thinks he MUST knock CTE and CTE teachers/users be also honor-bound to create that evidence? If that person is actually honest?

I mean, for myself personally, I would learn it and dissect the shit out of it so that I could clearly demonstrate where and why it is bogus if I had the same conviction as Joey and the Knockers. What a great name for a 60s cover band...... tonight only Joey and the Knockers will be performing their greatest hits from their only album, CTE Don't Work. Featuring the smooth sounds on Subconscious Adjustment, the clear lines, and different viewpoints on the catchy Objection Perception. And of course, containing the classic Ain't No Angle Wide Enough.
Ever consider going into politics..?
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
ok, then call them updates. Either way, it is making something better. If you have something good and there is a problem that needs to be corrected then a good builder corrects the problem on the existing product and for all subsequently made products. The MAIN point here is that Stan didn't take something and dump it on the market with no continuous improvement and study.

There is no such thing as a perfectly good system created by man. No matter what things can always be improved and since they can be improved then they were not perfect when created.

the key word is SERVICE. Stan provides the SERVICE for his students in the form of updates and improvements.

Regarding seatbelts, of course you EXPECT that they should work as designed. The car manufacturer and the engineers all thought it worked as designed when they built and sold the car. IF a flaw is discovered then they fix it and the fix is implemented for all cars going forward.

But, that's not really the point. The point is that Joey is spending his time INSULTING as you agree with him that he is DENIGRATING CTE and DENIGRATING Stan Shuffett, denigrating Hal Houle, denigrating EVERY PERSON who uses and is learning CTE, denigrating EVERY INSTRUCTOR who teaches CTE and related systems. DENIGRATING every professional player who says that they use CTE aiming.

And furthermore the updates/improvements are NOT bug fixes. They are literally ways to get even more accurately lined up than the previously awesome way to do it. The ONLY actual "fixes" ever put out were corrections when directions were misstated, such as saying this shot is A-inside when actually A-outside is the solution, or typos.

So Joey is trying to insult and in fact it's NOT an insult because the supplier is providing ongoing material support for the product he put out.

As opposed to say someone who puts out an aiming system and charges $25 for it and never bothers to continue developing and testing. Someone who leaves the industry and provides no support would be an example of an orphan method that MIGHT actually need more study and refinement but without someone doing that most ordinary users who are themselves not developers will be left with questions.

Stan on the other hand has always been available to anyone. Even Joey and you, without any need to purchase anything from him. Why that isn't applauded is beyond me. Agree with the efficacy of the system or not the commitment should be recognized. Calling someone a snake-oil salesman because you simply do not think that what they offer works is no different than me calling Joey a hack cuemaker because I don't like the color of his cues.

My point is that Joey and all the other knockers here are not contributing to the growth of pool when they spend time trying to tear down those that are using baseless claims and insults. I HATE Mike Hoang with every fiber of my being. I think that he is a criminal, based on the crime he committed against me and I think that the moves he makes are super shady. But I applaud his recent activity to arrange big matches and big tournaments. He is helping to keep this sport going and as a player and fan of pool I can recognize that and don't let my hate cause me to follow him around online where he is active with these matches and promotions and denigrate him by airing my grievances in those places.

Saying that a system doesn't work is not the same as proving that it doesn't. If Joey and others want to REALLY kill CTE then they need to prove that it doesn't work. But that requires more work than simply thinking of new ways to insult anyone who uses CTE aiming. Joey can wake up, fire off some insults, feel really good that he thought of "service packs" as an insult and go about his day savoring the "zinger" he threw. But that doesn't help this sport at all. You would think that a tip repairman would be out there encouraging everyone to play as much as possible, try everything, practice CTE until you need a new tip, give discounts to CTE users to encourage them to play enough to need tips more often. One would think that a person would easily see the synergies available.

Oh, but wait, this is a MORAL thing right? Joey, et al.... thinks that CTE is bogus and a waste of time/money to mess with and so ethically he is honor-bound to denigrate the method and all who teach and learn it. Joey thinks that people SHOULD play as much as possible but they should be doing drills and practicing whatever Joey's favorite "famous" instructor tells them to do. Well, then in that case we are back to PROVING that CTE is bogus so that all that needs to be done every time a CTE discussion pops up is to link to the proof. Wouldn't a person who honestly believes as Joey does and who thinks he MUST knock CTE and CTE teachers/users be also honor-bound to create that evidence? If that person is actually honest?

I mean, for myself personally, I would learn it and dissect the shit out of it so that I could clearly demonstrate where and why it is bogus if I had the same conviction as Joey and the Knockers. What a great name for a 60s cover band...... tonight only Joey and the Knockers will be performing their greatest hits from their only album, CTE Don't Work. Featuring the smooth sounds on Subconscious Adjustment, the clear lines, and different viewpoints on the catchy Objection Perception. And of course, containing the classic Ain't No Angle Wide Enough.
The Japanese call it Kaizen.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The process of seeing correctly is done in the mind.

I am sure the eyes and brain are taking many factors into consideration.

Nobody knows “exactly” what the mind is processing as this occurs and nobody can see through another person’s eyes. Even if they could, they couldn’t replicate the mental processing of the other person.

If a person can aim, using whatever method they use, and consistently send the cue ball to that spot, there is no way for another person to know exactly how they did it.

The person doing the aiming can’t even be sure that there is one overriding mental process that they can identify that made it all work. They may be able to record their physical motions to determine if the basic fundamentals were being correctly performed, but they can’t record the mind and break down the processes.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The process of seeing correctly is done in the mind.

I am sure the eyes and brain are taking many factors into consideration.

Nobody knows “exactly” what the mind is processing as this occurs and nobody can see through another person’s eyes. Even if they could, they couldn’t replicate the mental processing of the other person.

If a person can aim, using whatever method they use, and consistently send the cue ball to that spot, there is no way for another person to know exactly how they did it.

The person doing the aiming can’t even be sure that there is one overriding mental process that they can identify that made it all work. They may be able to record their physical motions to determine if the basic fundamentals were being correctly performed, but they can’t record the mind and break down the processes.

Can't believe I'm saying this (you know why) but this is an excellent observation and post.

Lou Figueroa
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The process of seeing correctly is done in the mind.

I am sure the eyes and brain are taking many factors into consideration.

Nobody knows “exactly” what the mind is processing as this occurs and nobody can see through another person’s eyes. Even if they could, they couldn’t replicate the mental processing of the other person.

If a person can aim, using whatever method they use, and consistently send the cue ball to that spot, there is no way for another person to know exactly how they did it.

The person doing the aiming can’t even be sure that there is one overriding mental process that they can identify that made it all work. They may be able to record their physical motions to determine if the basic fundamentals were being correctly performed, but they can’t record the mind and break down the processes.
Correct but we have many ways to figure out the efficacy of a mental method.

Pool players are generally not high level researchers. We have one way to know whether something is working or not, personal experience on the table. This sport is worth almost nothing in the pantheon of sports so there will likely never be any of the types of studies that are done in other sports ava activities to determine what mental techniques for aiming are truly effective and which are not.

But there are certainly ways that this could be determined. So while we could never truly know absent a full mapping of every synaptic pulse we certainly do have the means to get a pretty good idea of what works better on average.
 

azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Joey and John, please rein in all of the hostility. I have worked to clean this thread up and didn't issue bans, but probably should have.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Except the Japanese rip off American products and improve on them. Or is that the Chinese?
Just as a follow up, that certainly is not a racist comment. It is factual and the Chinese have institutionalized it by way of demanding intellectual property from businesses wanting access to China.

I don't know about kaizen but I do know some history. After WW2 Japanese industry was a mess and anything coming out of Japan was considered junk. We sent Edwards Deming over there to see if he could straighten things out and boy did he ever. His philosophy of "total quality management" or TQM turned everything around in time to the extent that Japan started kicking our ass. 40 years later companies like the one I worked for began adopting TQM practices and reorienting (no pun intended) how we did things. I don't know if kaizen is some 1000 year old Japanese thing or if it appeared in Japan after Deming's work over there but the idea of continuous improvement seems to be central to both.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just as a follow up, that certainly is not a racist comment. It is factual and the Chinese have institutionalized it by way of demanding intellectual property from businesses wanting access to China.

I don't know about kaizen but I do know some history. After WW2 Japanese industry was a mess and anything coming out of Japan was considered junk. We sent Edwards Deming over there to see if he could straighten things out and boy did he ever. His philosophy of "total quality management" or TQM turned everything around in time to the extent that Japan started kicking our ass. 40 years later companies like the one I worked for began adopting TQM practices and reorienting (no pun intended) how we did things. I don't know if kaizen is some 1000 year old Japanese thing or if it appeared in Japan after Deming's work over there but the idea of continuous improvement seems to be central to both.
No, they have NOT institutionalized the copying of consumer goods. I lived there for seven years. The PRIMARY motivation to copy stuff comes from Western companies who BRING products to OEM factories and tell them to copy it. Most Chinese factories are unaware of what actually is popular and they rely on customers to tell them what to build. Out of that however some companies have become innovative world class manufacturers in their own right.

Your comment was stereotyping and historically incorrect. Regarding the intellectual property issue, yes there is espionage happening and yes it's a problem. BUT this is not without culpability on the part of American companies that want to use China's cheap labor or gain access to China's consumers.

And yes, Deming was instrumental in rebuilding Japanese industry. And the Toyota Production System might have it's origins in Deming's work but the fact is that it is more than management, it is a core lifestyle of creating a lean environment by continuing to find ways to improve processes. Toyota is down to shaving factions of a second from tasks in the production process.

Your comment was racist in my view because it stereotypes "the Chinese" and the "Japanese". Not the Chinese or Japanese government, not SOME Japanese or Chinese companies. To me your comment was just as racist as my child being told she would be sent back to China if the former guy was elected. It had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the thread, nothing to do with aiming and everything do to with casting ASPERSIONS on Japan and China.

For what reason? Because someone said that "the japanese call continuous improvement kaizen"? This is why these threads get derailed.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Kaizen would eliminate inefficient processes or practices .
And that is exactly what has been done with CTE. The goal is to get to the shot line with full confidence that the line is correct. With Center to Edge aiming that goal is met efficiently and consistently. I am fairly sure that it will be refined and improved even further as more and more folks work with it.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, they have NOT institutionalized the copying of consumer goods. I lived there for seven years. The PRIMARY motivation to copy stuff comes from Western companies who BRING products to OEM factories and tell them to copy it. Most Chinese factories are unaware of what actually is popular and they rely on customers to tell them what to build. Out of that however some companies have become innovative world class manufacturers in their own right.

Your comment was stereotyping and historically incorrect. Regarding the intellectual property issue, yes there is espionage happening and yes it's a problem. BUT this is not without culpability on the part of American companies that want to use China's cheap labor or gain access to China's consumers.

And yes, Deming was instrumental in rebuilding Japanese industry. And the Toyota Production System might have it's origins in Deming's work but the fact is that it is more than management, it is a core lifestyle of creating a lean environment by continuing to find ways to improve processes. Toyota is down to shaving factions of a second from tasks in the production process.

Your comment was racist in my view because it stereotypes "the Chinese" and the "Japanese". Not the Chinese or Japanese government, not SOME Japanese or Chinese companies. To me your comment was just as racist as my child being told she would be sent back to China if the former guy was elected. It had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the thread, nothing to do with aiming and everything do to with casting ASPERSIONS on Japan and China.

For what reason? Because someone said that "the japanese call continuous improvement kaizen"? This is why these threads get derailed.
This is plain silly. My only response is this. What country is far more racist - Japan or USA? Follow up question - What country is far more racist - China or USA? Bonus question: Which of the 3 countries has death camps and slave labor and has murdered countless covid victims?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And that is exactly what has been done with CTE. The goal is to get to the shot line with full confidence that the line is correct. With Center to Edge aiming that goal is met efficiently and consistently. I am fairly sure that it will be refined and improved even further as more and more folks work with it.
CTE is more efficient than ghost ball? Ghost ball has one step: Imagine the cue ball at the contact point and shoot. CTE steps: Line up this line here line up that line there imagine a third line while tilting your head toward the pocket now gaze at the edge of the cb while imagining the "no imagination (lol) shot line" and then ruin all of that by looking at the object ball last then shoot.

CTE is Rube Goldberg's interpretation of ghost ball aiming.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
CTE is more efficient than ghost ball? Ghost ball has one step: Imagine the cue ball at the contact point and shoot. CTE steps: Line up this line here line up that line there imagine a third line while tilting your head toward the pocket now gaze at the edge of the cb while imagining the "no imagination (lol) shot line" and then ruin all of that by looking at the object ball last then shoot.

CTE is Rube Goldberg's interpretation of ghost ball aiming.
One step doesn't make something more efficient if it results in less successful results. I mean it's a pretty simple logical proposition that if one step results in 50% success and two steps results in 75% success then the two step method is more efficient for achieving the goal.

I do leather work and we add steps when needed to make a better product. The end result is that we have less issues with cases breaking due to adding a step to the process of making them. Thus increasing the efficiency of delivering a product to consumers that they can depend on. Efficiency isn't about reducing steps it is about making the steps taken highly productive.

 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
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Silver Member
This is plain silly. My only response is this. What country is far more racist - Japan or USA? Follow up question - What country is far more racist - China or USA? Bonus question: Which of the 3 countries has death camps and slave labor and has murdered countless covid victims?

We are not speaking of the overall racism index in a country. We are speaking about the fact that you chose to inject a stereotype based on race in a discussion. The Chinese is not synonymous with the Chinese government. I don't get out of a speeding ticket by explaining to the officer that statistically some other demographic speeds more.

Trying to turn this conversation into a geopolitical discussion is not cool.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One step doesn't make something more efficient if it results in less successful results. I mean it's a pretty simple logical proposition that if one step results in 50% success and two steps results in 75% success then the two step method is more efficient for achieving the goal.

I do leather work and we add steps when needed to make a better product. The end result is that we have less issues with cases breaking due to adding a step to the process of making them. Thus increasing the efficiency of delivering a product to consumers that they can depend on. Efficiency isn't about reducing steps it is about making the steps taken highly productive.


... except nobody has shown that CTE is better than ghost ball which has about one step. Maybe it is for "Pete Lowenstein" but that is hardly statistically significant. In fact, there isn't any proof that "Pete" even plays pool. He lies about his name so why should we believe anything else?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We are not speaking of the overall racism index in a country. We are speaking about the fact that you chose to inject a stereotype based on race in a discussion. The Chinese is not synonymous with the Chinese government. I don't get out of a speeding ticket by explaining to the officer that statistically some other demographic speeds more.

Trying to turn this conversation into a geopolitical discussion is not cool.
Don't be an idiot. What's not cool is imputing racist motives to someone you don't even know. When you throw around "racism!" willy nilly it cheapens the word. When I say Japanese or Chinese I am talking about their policies, which is government, obviously. Do I really have to even say that?

Also, I didn't inject a stereotype. I stated plain facts.

Keep on, JB. I'm done. I don't want to get stabbed in the heart so OK, whatever you say JB. You're right. You caught ole racist Dan... damn!
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Don't be an idiot. What's not cool is imputing racist motives to someone you don't even know. When you throw around "racism!" willy nilly it cheapens the word. When I say Japanese or Chinese I am talking about their policies, which is government, obviously. Do I really have to even say that?

Also, I didn't inject a stereotype. I stated plain facts.

Keep on, JB. I'm done. I don't want to get stabbed in the heart so OK, whatever you say JB. You're right. You caught ole racist Dan... damn!
What purpose did you have to inject ANYTHING about Chinese or Japanese "policy" in a thread about Aiming in pool? Don't attack people with the stated intention of causing them physical harm and it is a near certainty that those people will not stab you anywhere.
 
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