CTE ... the complete story

[SpiderWebComm]

Thanks for the compliments.

I've been playing pool for something like 40 years. I have never claimed to be more than a decent amateur. And over the course of those four decades, I've tried to learn from: other players, DVDs, books, exhibitions, tournaments, money matches, the occasional one-on-one lesson from players like the late Steve Cook, and my own ceaseless ball pounding on the green felt.

So for you to say I'm cocky or shut off to new info is grossly unfair.

I have taken a look at CTE with an open mind and the desire to learn. And I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't really work, on its face, or for the reasons some think. IOW, there is no 1/2 ball or ball improvement there for me. That does not mean that I don't think it works for some people and/or can improve their game, or can be used a crutch. And that's OK.

So far, the bestest explanation for why it works for some and not others, is PJ's placebo explanation. I hadn't really thought of that one before, and it's, hmmm, well, a "new idea." So see, I'm not shut off to new ideas. Maybe you just don't like the ideas I embrace

Lou Figueroa

That placebo effect comment is coming from someone who doesn't know anything. Since I know you're the non-believer's leader playing-wise, I hope someday I'll get to meet you. I fully sympathize with your comments and positions--- I thought the same way years ago until I found an entire set of information that wasn't found anywhere on here.

I bet if you and I were in a private room (something like DCC's AZB player room) alone without an audience for an hour (or 2 MAX), you would have a completely different perspective and opinion.

If you showed me I was seeing things the wrong way and why that was, I'd get on here and clear the air and tell everyone how you saved me from wasting any more time on tin foil hats.

If you learned something new that had the potential to REALLY help your game (not in a placebo way - but in pure technique), would you be man enough to post on here in front of your boys and state so? That's where the cocky comment came from - I don't think you would based on the tone of some of your posts. If I'm wrong and have you completely misread, tell me and let's get together sometime.

I'm in no way questioning your ability - you're definitely far better than me. I'm just questioning your knowledge of this subject - which is the foundation of your opinion. That's all.

As usual, this thread won't go anywhere for the same reasons as the past. Those who really make fun of CTE won't take the time to learn it (from someone who KNOWS) in fear of having to eat crow in front of their AZB hometown crowd. Instead, they demand for certain people to post info and when they don't... there's mocking, instigation, and insults.

I'll leave it at that... and I mean that with the utmost respect.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Whether you "air pivot" or "table pivot," it still sounds like the pivot is critical to making CTE work. It seems like this is where the fine tuning (the actual aiming) takes place. Most people can place their bridge and align the cue fairly close to the necessary line of a shot (i.e., "get into the ballpark"). The tough part is the fine tuning.

You have it backwards. Research is done at universities when outside entities provide research funding. Money doesn't flow out of a university, only in. If you win the lottery and want to fund a CTE study, let me know.

Catch you later,
Dave

Universities across the USA used to pay me for speeches all the time... as a stipend. I have it right You need to fund the CTE study because it's your website that needs the content - not mine. I mean this sincerely. I know you have a lot of pride in your site and I happen to be a big fan of it. You use your site as a reference in nearly every post you make. Why would someone make you an expert for free just so you can link back to your site in a future CTE thread and position yourself as the expert?

I could send you content for your entire CTE section that would probably be some of the most valuable info on the site. But, why would I when I spent years getting it (and spent lotsa $$$)?

I dont need to fund a study --- I already have the info.

 

[JE54]

Spider does know

Having discussed CTE, Ron V's system and shot pool with Dave, I can tell you that he does know all the systems that he talks about very thoroughly.

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the expert players that Stan Shuffett has worked with. But those two I know USE the CTE system, and play very well. Do they think they would be as good without it? I don't know. However, I suspect Stevie Moore, at the level he plays at, wouldn't use something that he didn't believe would benefit his game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OK, two guys. Very good.

But when I think of the hundreds of very accomplished players out there -- to say nothing of all the pros -- you'd have to concede that's a pretty short list.

And, what exactly are you claiming? That Stevie and Landon have been shown CTE... or that Stevie and Landon use CTE... or maybe that Stevie and Landon have written you into their wills because they both think CTE is the greatest thing since sliced bread and they wouldn't be the players they are today because of CTE?

Lou Figueroa

 

[dr_dave]

You need to fund the CTE study because it's your website that needs the content - not mine. I mean this sincerely. I know you have a lot of pride in your site and I happen to be a big fan of it. You use your site as a reference in nearly every post you make. Why would someone make you an expert for free just so you can link back to your site in a future CTE thread and position yourself as the expert?

Dave,

That's just twisted. My site doesn't "need" the info. Whenever I see something good or useful posted, I quote it in the FAQ section of my site. I do refer to the site often to let people know where they can find useful info, articles, and video demos on a wide range of pool topics, not just from me but from others as well (Bob Jewett, Mike Page, Joe Tucker, Colin Colenso, YouTube contributors, and many others). However, I always give credit to the person providing the info (e.g., see all of the "from XXXX:" references in my FAQ pages). How is this positioning myself as an expert (or do you mean I'm an expert in assembling useful information)? I do provide a lot of my own views and resources in my FAQ pages, but it's not just my stuff.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

I tried it last night to the best of my ability. Some shots seemed to work perfect, or it may have been myself subconsciously correcting the pivot and I just thought I did it. With all the discussion on the pivot, its apparent that I don't understand it from the video.
Once pivoting back to center cue, do you hit the OB center?
Maybe thats what I was screwing up. Like I said, the video was good, just couldn't see everything Eric was doing.

 

[klockdoc]

That placebo effect comment is coming from someone who doesn't know anything. Since I know you're the non-believer's leader playing-wise, I hope someday I'll get to meet you. I fully sympathize with your comments and positions--- I thought the same way years ago until I found an entire set of information that wasn't found anywhere on here.

I bet if you and I were in a private room (something like DCC's AZB player room) alone without an audience for an hour (or 2 MAX), you would have a completely different perspective and opinion.

If you showed me I was seeing things the wrong way and why that was, I'd get on here and clear the air and tell everyone how you saved me from wasting any more time on tin foil hats.

If you learned something new that had the potential to REALLY help your game (not in a placebo way - but in pure technique), would you be man enough to post on here in front of your boys and state so? That's where the cocky comment came from - I don't think you would based on the tone of some of your posts. If I'm wrong and have you completely misread, tell me and let's get together sometime.

I'm in no way questioning your ability - you're definitely far better than me. I'm just questioning your knowledge of this subject - which is the foundation of your opinion. That's all.

As usual, this thread won't go anywhere for the same reasons as the past. Those who really make fun of CTE won't take the time to learn it (from someone who KNOWS) in fear of having to eat crow in front of their AZB hometown crowd. Instead, they demand for certain people to post info and when they don't... there's mocking, instigation, and insults.

I'll leave it at that... and I mean that with the utmost respect.

Spidey....I do not know the extent of time you have invested in using the CTE system, but if your game has not improved to a point where it is better or even as close as Lou's is.... well I will just leave it at that.

Definitely isn't a system that I need looking at then. :smile:

 

[irock]

If you are trying to use CTE, but are not use to pivoting, you could be having a problem changing the pivot when you look at the object ball just before shooting. Try a few shots this way, after you pivot, keep your eyes on the cue ball during your stroke. Once you get use to the feel of the pivot, which is not much, then change to what works best for you. Give it a try and post back.

 

[JAW725]

Lou...I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the expert players that Stan Shuffett has worked with. But those two I know USE the CTE system, and play very well. Do they think they would be as good without it? I don't know. However, I suspect Stevie Moore, at the level he plays at, wouldn't use something that he didn't believe would benefit his game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Matt Krah also credited Stan and PRO ONE to some of his recent success. That's one more guy anyways.

 

[Donkey Puncher]

Aiming systems ,laminated tips , low deflection shafts and all the other so called "training aids" are close to useless.
Mosconi, Greenleaf and Lassiter had none of these and they shot the lights out in their day. And could compete if not dominate in the modern era.

Awww, one of those progress is bad people. Gotta love that. Especially when they throw in that the old timers would dominate now. Something that not only is probably far from the truth, but also cannot be proven. I bet you hate jump cues too, and never wanted to pay ball in hand either until you finally realized it wasn't chicken shit to play safeties.

 

[Shaft]

The disconnect

There are millions of angles required, yet CTE offers just a few identical steps, supposedly to cover all of them.

I have an open mind. I would love to try this system. None of the explanations I have read make any sense. Could someone please post a "Mike Page" type video with emphasis on diagrams? I understand Mike's videos.

And, I want to make sure this system works on 9 foot tables too, not just 6 footers with huge pockets.

The big test: CB and OB are in the kitchen separated by 6 inches with a cut angle of 60 degrees to the foot pocket. This is a tough shot requiring a lot of accuracy. I can make these with the Ghost Ball technique. Will CTE work here? Based on the descriptions I have read (or maybe my poor understanding), I don't think so.

In order for the OB to drop, the contact point should be nearly identical after applying either of the two systems. (There is only a limited amount of play offered by the width of the pocket.) Center to edge gives me a natural half-ball (only a 30deg) cut angle, and the pivot back to center must really screw things up. CTE will make the CB hit the OB too fat, or, again, I don't understand the steps.

The above is not an argument, but merely an expression of my understanding. Please explain, don't flame.

 

[lfigueroa]

That placebo effect comment is coming from someone who doesn't know anything. Since I know you're the non-believer's leader playing-wise, I hope someday I'll get to meet you. I fully sympathize with your comments and positions--- I thought the same way years ago until I found an entire set of information that wasn't found anywhere on here.

I bet if you and I were in a private room (something like DCC's AZB player room) alone without an audience for an hour (or 2 MAX), you would have a completely different perspective and opinion.

If you showed me I was seeing things the wrong way and why that was, I'd get on here and clear the air and tell everyone how you saved me from wasting any more time on tin foil hats.

If you learned something new that had the potential to REALLY help your game (not in a placebo way - but in pure technique), would you be man enough to post on here in front of your boys and state so? That's where the cocky comment came from - I don't think you would based on the tone of some of your posts. If I'm wrong and have you completely misread, tell me and let's get together sometime.

I'm in no way questioning your ability - you're definitely far better than me. I'm just questioning your knowledge of this subject - which is the foundation of your opinion. That's all.

As usual, this thread won't go anywhere for the same reasons as the past. Those who really make fun of CTE won't take the time to learn it (from someone who KNOWS) in fear of having to eat crow in front of their AZB hometown crowd. Instead, they demand for certain people to post info and when they don't... there's mocking, instigation, and insults.

I'll leave it at that... and I mean that with the utmost respect.

Look, I appreciate the confidence you have in the system and your powers of persuasion. But you have to understand that I'm not just some guy that hits balls around without understanding how and why they're going in. IOW, I am a student of the game. I am not a natural. And whatever talent for the game that I might have is hard won -- I know why I make the balls I make.

What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, introducing things like pivots, actually does more harm than good. So you should be careful what you're willing to bet I'll think, even after a couple of hours with you. That is not to say that I won't listen and carefully consider what you have to say, I just know how and why I play the way I play, so the deck is really stacked against you.

And sure, if you convinced me otherwise, I'd be happy to put on the sack and dose myself with ashes and cry "Unclean! Unclean! for all the towns folk to hear. There is no fear or pride in that department, at least not from me. But, OTOH, if you think CTE and pivots are going to actually make me play better than I do now, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed and, forewarned, will expect you to do the same

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

There Lou, with my failure to come up with a list you have proven that CTE does not work. I have blown the joke Oh well, guess there is no more need for this thread to continue but I'm sure you'll want to keep picking even though you figured it out.

You seem like a great guy Lou, take care and God bless.

You're a peach too.

You're the one that suggested there was a "list of impressive players" using CTE. But now it appears that -- just like the system you all are so enamored of -- you can't produce the goods ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[randyg]

There are millions of angles required, yet CTE offers just a few identical steps, supposedly to cover all of them.

I have an open mind. I would love to try this system. None of the explanations I have read make any sense. Could someone please post a "Mike Page" type video with emphasis on diagrams? I understand Mike's videos.

And, I want to make sure this system works on 9 foot tables too, not just 6 footers with huge pockets.

The big test: CB and OB are in the kitchen separated by 6 inches with a cut angle of 60 degrees to the foot pocket. This is a tough shot requiring a lot of accuracy. I can make these with the Ghost Ball technique. Will CTE work here? Based on the descriptions I have read (or maybe my poor understanding), I don't think so.

In order for the OB to drop, the contact point should be nearly identical after applying either of the two systems. (There is only a limited amount of play offered by the width of the pocket.) Center to edge gives me a natural half-ball (only a 30deg) cut angle, and the pivot back to center must really screw things up. CTE will make the CB hit the OB too fat, or, again, I don't understand the steps.

The above is not an argument, but merely an expression of my understanding. Please explain, don't flame.

CTE might work even better for that shot....SPF=randyg

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the expert players that Stan Shuffett has worked with. But those two I know USE the CTE system, and play very well. Do they think they would be as good without it? I don't know. However, I suspect Stevie Moore, at the level he plays at, wouldn't use something that he didn't believe would benefit his game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I guess my point is -- and to a certain extent your post confirms -- that we really don't know what impact CTE has had on anyones game, that has had it shown to them.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about: a long, long time ago, I was shown the "Spot on the Wall" system, by an old-timer at my first pool room. Interesting, but never really used it. Flash forward 30 some odd years and I'm play Efren in the US Open 1pocket tournament up in Kalamazoo. It's early in one particular game and he has me so tied up that the only shot available to me is a three-rail kick from near my side pocket. It's such an off angle that I can't calculate the hit on the first rail. There are like 200 people watching (and waiting) and I don't want to whiff the shot and I don't know what to do. And then I remember the Spot on the Wall system! I quickly sight the shot and line it up on a piece of chalk sitting on a table 10 feet away. I aim at the chalk, the CB travels three rails, kicks in the ball Efren has sitting in his jaws, the crowd applauds, Efren smiles, Lou sits down relieved he didn't look like a goober.

Soooooo, I was "shown" (or taught if you prefer) the system by competent authority, I used the system, and it worked for me (once in 30 years year). But would I let someone claim I "use" that system? Well, sort of. That it has made me a better player than I would be otherwise? Well, no. Is it a tool I might occasionally reference? Sure.

And I think that is were CTE really fits in for a lot of the players to whom it has been taught.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

There are millions of angles required, yet CTE offers just a few identical steps, supposedly to cover all of them.

I have an open mind. I would love to try this system. None of the explanations I have read make any sense. Could someone please post a "Mike Page" type video with emphasis on diagrams? I understand Mike's videos.

And, I want to make sure this system works on 9 foot tables too, not just 6 footers with huge pockets.

The big test: CB and OB are in the kitchen separated by 6 inches with a cut angle of 60 degrees to the foot pocket. This is a tough shot requiring a lot of accuracy. I can make these with the Ghost Ball technique. Will CTE work here? Based on the descriptions I have read (or maybe my poor understanding), I don't think so.

In order for the OB to drop, the contact point should be nearly identical after applying either of the two systems. (There is only a limited amount of play offered by the width of the pocket.) Center to edge gives me a natural half-ball (only a 30deg) cut angle, and the pivot back to center must really screw things up. CTE will make the CB hit the OB too fat, or, again, I don't understand the steps.

The above is not an argument, but merely an expression of my understanding. Please explain, don't flame.

Your point concerning tight pockets, for a system like this, is huge.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are millions of angles required, yet CTE offers just a few identical steps, supposedly to cover all of them.

I have an open mind. I would love to try this system. None of the explanations I have read make any sense. Could someone please post a "Mike Page" type video with emphasis on diagrams? I understand Mike's videos.

And, I want to make sure this system works on 9 foot tables too, not just 6 footers with huge pockets.

The big test: CB and OB are in the kitchen separated by 6 inches with a cut angle of 60 degrees to the foot pocket. This is a tough shot requiring a lot of accuracy. I can make these with the Ghost Ball technique. Will CTE work here? Based on the descriptions I have read (or maybe my poor understanding), I don't think so.

In order for the OB to drop, the contact point should be nearly identical after applying either of the two systems. (There is only a limited amount of play offered by the width of the pocket.) Center to edge gives me a natural half-ball (only a 30deg) cut angle, and the pivot back to center must really screw things up. CTE will make the CB hit the OB too fat, or, again, I don't understand the steps.

The above is not an argument, but merely an expression of my understanding. Please explain, don't flame.

Based on what system users have said, here's how this shot works:

1. Line up center-to-edge (half-ball 30 degree cut).

2. Adjust aim by feel to actual cut angle.

3. If asked, say it's a systematic adjustment (give it a name like "air pivoting" or "shifting edges" if you like) that you won't reveal the steps to because [your reason here] - or that's simply impossible to describe.

pj
chgo

[Negative responses to this description will not provide an alternative to #2, except in the form of #3.]

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Based on what system users have said,
3. If asked, say it's a systematic adjustment (give it a name like "air pivoting" or "shifting edges" if you like) that you won't reveal the steps to because [your reason here] - or that's simply impossible to describe.

pj
chgo

[Negative responses to this description will not provide an alternative to #2, except in the form of #3.]

Both pivoting and outermost edges have been described in detail in previous posts....but in different threads. No one takes the time to put the pieces together. I think that's why I never post anything--- everyone wants to be spoon-fed and no one spoon-fed me.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Look, I appreciate the confidence you have in the system and your powers of persuasion. But you have to understand that I'm not just some guy that hits balls around without understanding how and why they're going in. IOW, I am a student of the game. I am not a natural. And whatever talent for the game that I might have is hard won -- I know why I make the balls I make.

What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, introducing things like pivots, actually does more harm than good. So you should be careful what you're willing to bet I'll think, even after a couple of hours with you. That is not to say that I won't listen and carefully consider what you have to say, I just know how and why I play the way I play, so the deck is really stacked against you.

And sure, if you convinced me otherwise, I'd be happy to put on the sack and dose myself with ashes and cry "Unclean! Unclean! for all the towns folk to hear. There is no fear or pride in that department, at least not from me. But, OTOH, if you think CTE and pivots are going to actually make me play better than I do now, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed and, forewarned, will expect you to do the same

Lou Figueroa

Fair enough, Lou. If you're a student of the game (as I am), pull someone aside who really knows the info and get the info. As you said, you will likely not use it--- but as a student of the game--- don't you want to know?

All this info does is define a pre-shot routine. You can call it anything you want. For me, personally, CTE/90-90 IS my pre-shot routine.

 

[dr_dave]

Both pivoting and outermost edges have been described in detail in previous posts....but in different threads.

Spidey,

I think many of the previous threads can be summarized as follows:

Just pivot, and the ball goes in the hole. If you pay a CTE instructor, they can reveal all of the hidden secrets and make you great overnight.​

I'm OK with instructors making a living. What I don't like is all of the secrecy. Instructors offer much more value to an individual than magical secrets, IMO.

Regards,
Dave