Cue Design Theft... Are You For or Against

[nateschade]

Some of my favorite cues are paul motteys that are copies of szambotis! I'm able to afford 3,000 for a classic style cue done by a great maker without forking out 20,000 for the real thing. I'm sure there are those who don't agree but if they were offered a gorgeous cue for a great price it's not like there not going to buy it because its a copy off of gus!

 

[mia]

...And to answer the question. I dont give a shit. Eric is a self proclaimed ass that I will never have any desire to acquire one of his cues. And there are some members here that I have lost a lot of respect for. I know I am a small fish in a big pond. Hell, not even a fish. Tadpole maybe. But I know that right and wrong manner in which to talk to people and the other thread and this one are the wrong way to go about it. Bottom line, grow up, show some sack and keep on truckin'.

By the way, this should be in the main forum as this has no pictures or is trying to show technique. It is a POLL. These go in the main forum. And here is my vote. I vote for the 3rd option.

Wait for it....

Grow up.

The irony here is astouding.

 

[mia]

I find it a little unfair to say that when it comes to traditional designs, most everything has been done already. Perfect example... thepavlos's "Flaming Goose" Mobley.

By many accounts, that cue is VERY traditional but unlike any other traditional cue we've seen.

There is always a way to come up with something new.

 

[mia]

****double post****

 

[BrooklynJay]

I think the key here is unique design elements, signature elments, not who did what first.

The SW look - it's referred to as such because it's their unique look and is recognized by the masses as such. Anyone making a cue that looks like that is, yes, copying and stealing their design.

 

[subdude1974]

I find it a little unfair to say that when it comes to traditional designs, most everything has been done already. Perfect example... thepavlos's "Flaming Goose" Mobley.

By many accounts, that cue is VERY traditional but unlike any other traditional cue we've seen.

There is always a way to come up with something new.

I have no idea where the irony is. I basically say to man up and move on and this is the gallery for VIEWING cues. Not taking polls about business ethics. I think you may need a dictionary. Not sure if you read the other thread or not but Eric calls himself an asshole. Twice actually. Not sure if that is what you are talking about or not. Anyway, do some reading before you start.

 

[mia]

I have no idea where the irony is. I basically say to man up and move on and this is the gallery for VIEWING cues. Not taking polls about business ethics. I think you may need a dictionary. Not sure if you read the other thread or not but Eric calls himself an asshole. Twice actually. Not sure if that is what you are talking about or not. Anyway, do some reading before you start.

I'm talking about the irony of your horribly infantile post which says (paraphrased):

"I vote for option 3. Grow up."

The irony being that there is no 'option 3' and your reference to a third option was an immature, 5th grade level joke... which was posted with the advice for Jaime to 'grow up'.

5th grade level joke + telling someone to grow up = irony

Perhaps that was a little more clear?

 

[classiccues]

Some of my favorite cues are paul motteys that are copies of szambotis! I'm able to afford 3,000 for a classic style cue done by a great maker without forking out 20,000 for the real thing. I'm sure there are those who don't agree but if they were offered a gorgeous cue for a great price it's not like there not going to buy it because its a copy off of gus!

Well it's ok he is dead and can't voice an opinion and evidently his son has zero say in the progressive lineage if you ask these guys.

Let me use this anology.. if I was a violating some chick, and I only stuck in the tip, would it still be rape?

JV (---grew up thinking that if you stole a buck or a thousand you were still a theif. Gonna tell my parents they were lying all these years. They should have told me that it was OK to dig up a corpse and take his wallet. BTW I am still ok with copying but not ok with people who say its not good until they are making money off it, then it's a "tribute".

 

[tattoo]

BTW I am still ok with copying but not ok with people who say its not good until they are making money off it, then it's a "tribute".

best answer i have seen in several months on az.....joe i love reading your post.....:thumbup:

 

[Underclocked]

I'm not for theft of any sort, but I think a great deal of restraint should be exercised before calling anyone a thief - especially when a design SHAPE is involved that has been used for hundreds (if not thousands) of years in more ways than you can name.

I invented circles though - and segmented stars - as well as the F-18 fighter.

 

[qbilder]

Like me or hate me, I stood up for what I personally believe. If that makes me an asshole then i'll wear that badge every time I feel urged to stand up for what I believe in. I may not always take the popular stance but i'm sure no chameleon changing colors to fit in. I don't need to wait to see what the crowd is doing before I make up my mind on how I feel. Maybe I wear my heart on my sleeve, and maybe I don't always support the popular opinion. But don't ever confuse me for not holding true to my values, whether they match your values or not. I respect others' beliefs so long as it's actually their beliefs & they are neutral enough to see the difference. We don't have to agree. Unlike a lot of folks here, I don't determine that I dislike somebody or call them names & judge their character because they don't see things the way I do. And I sure as hell don't alter my feelings to conform to what others think is best. If that makes me an asshole, then i'm straight up an asshole of assholes. Might as well accept it because it's not changing.

We all have our limitations that we set for ourselves. I have been working hard at expanding my limitations & hopefully eventually get rid of them completely. I'd like to be totally neutral. It's what I want as a human. I want to purge myself of any & all prejudice & discriminative feelings. I'd like to be able to love everybody equally, even if I have a hard time tolerating them. But i'm not there yet. What Al did offended me. He breached my limits. Is that a fault of mine for having that limit? I don't know. I think it is to a point. I wish I hadn't been quite so harsh, but then I am steadfast on the belief that if you don't express your feelings then nobody will know how you feel. Right is right & wrong is wrong. I believe he was wrong. I believe I was wrong. I just didn't know how else to handle it & I am/was angry that he did it. Someday I hope to be neutral enough to accept that people do the things they do for their own reasons & all I can control is me. But for now i'm still very much human & that shit he did pisses me off.

 

[cueaddicts]

Well, anybody surprised at the results of this poll so far?

 

[ScottR]

Scott that's a very nice post but what if the original maker really didn't like the idea but just didn't know how to say no? I don't think they should be put in a position to say yes or no, one way or the other.

Also, what if the cuemaker was alive but retired and couldn't be contacted? One other question... what if the cuemaker was dead, who would they get permission from then?

It seems the simple solution would be to not build tributes/copies.

I hear where you are coming from, Charlie. At least with the call to discuss it, the original builder had the option to express his opinion. That shows the respect I meant.

It sounds like you are in the no copies camp and I can't say that I disagree with that at all.

Scott

 

[classiccues]

Well, anybody surprised at the results of this poll so far?

No, because in the end it will come down to semantics and when and who is padding your wallet. Semantics like when is unique no more unique? Etc.. Etc.. when does a design become "common elements". Like I said in the other post the laws that govern copyrighting, true copyrighting anyways for the most part say 70 years after death. But when this is called out, then they are utilitarian pieces and not subject to copyright, lol. Yes, it's easy to leave loopholes so you can leave yourself a "grey" area.

JV

 

[Thecoats]

Paper veneers, half joints, and sleeved ivory joints. All design elements that have been done in probably the last 5 years copied at will by ANYONE who wants one done.

JV

IIRC someone posted a Rocky Tillis cue from the 70's that was done with a half joint steel 5/16-14, obviously he was way ahead of his time. I voted that it is an open playing field and if someone comes up with a unique design element and someone copies it they should be flattered that they have progressed the art of cue making.

When I saw the cue that prompted this thread and the holy war in the original thread I thought it was a nice attempt to create something similar to Eric's cues but it was quite obvious to me that it was not a Sugartree cue.

-don

 

[Thecoats]

Like me or hate me, I stood up for what I personally believe. If that makes me an asshole then i'll wear that badge every time I feel urged to stand up for what I believe in. I may not always take the popular stance but i'm sure no chameleon changing colors to fit in. I don't need to wait to see what the crowd is doing before I make up my mind on how I feel. Maybe I wear my heart on my sleeve, and maybe I don't always support the popular opinion. But don't ever confuse me for not holding true to my values, whether they match your values or not. I respect others' beliefs so long as it's actually their beliefs & they are neutral enough to see the difference. We don't have to agree. Unlike a lot of folks here, I don't determine that I dislike somebody or call them names & judge their character because they don't see things the way I do. And I sure as hell don't alter my feelings to conform to what others think is best. If that makes me an asshole, then i'm straight up an asshole of assholes. Might as well accept it because it's not changing.

We all have our limitations that we set for ourselves. I have been working hard at expanding my limitations & hopefully eventually get rid of them completely. I'd like to be totally neutral. It's what I want as a human. I want to purge myself of any & all prejudice & discriminative feelings. I'd like to be able to love everybody equally, even if I have a hard time tolerating them. But i'm not there yet. What Al did offended me. He breached my limits. Is that a fault of mine for having that limit? I don't know. I think it is to a point. I wish I hadn't been quite so harsh, but then I am steadfast on the belief that if you don't express your feelings then nobody will know how you feel. Right is right & wrong is wrong. I believe he was wrong. I believe I was wrong. I just didn't know how else to handle it & I am/was angry that he did it. Someday I hope to be neutral enough to accept that people do the things they do for their own reasons & all I can control is me. But for now i'm still very much human & that shit he did pisses me off.

Well said, positive rep to you sir. I love your moxie and confidence in your principles:thumbup::thumbup: While I don't necessarily agree that anyone can copy the work you do and repeat it nearly as perfect as you the originator can. Also, I am not an artist, so I kind of consider the fact that someone wanted to try an duplicate your design as more of a show of respect for you moving the cue making profession forward rather than a blatant attempt to profit at your expense. But I don't make cues so I respect your position on the matter.

I am just happy that you come here and discuss cue stuff with us common folk:grin::grin: I have had three of your cues and I loved them all, of course I also sold/traded them like I do every cue because I am forever a CUE Swappin Whore. I do see one of those Harvey Martin tribute cues in my future as some point.

Take Care
-don

 

[J$Cincy]

IIRC someone posted a Rocky Tillis cue from the 70's that was done with a half joint steel 5/16-14, obviously he was way ahead of his time. I voted that it is an open playing field and if someone comes up with a unique design element and someone copies it they should be flattered that they have progressed the art of cue making.

When I saw the cue that prompted this thread and the holy war in the original thread I thought it was a nice attempt to create something similar to Eric's cues but it was quite obvious to me that it was not a Sugartree cue.

-don

Rocky Tillis is the first to use the short steel joint, I was at John Showman's house and he showed me a few of Rocky's old cues from the 60's or 70's and a couple had 3/4" steel joints, he felt Rocky was the originator as well...

 

[qguy]

I betcha those cues were 57.5 inches and 57.75 inches

Rocky Tillis is the first to use the short steel joint, I was at John Showman's house and he showed me a few of Rocky's old cues from the 60's or 70's and a couple had 3/4" steel joints, he felt Rocky was the originator as well...

 

[Worminator]

I hope most were able to detect the sarcasm implied in the poll and this thread...

There will NEVER be agreement on this subject. In the end all I can say is this... if I design a cue that is "unique" (unique being- not another one on planet earth like it), and someone decides they like it and has an exact copy made... I will be pissed. There is not a damn thing I can do about it but be pissed. And whether other people think its right or wrong would not matter to me in the least bit... I will still be pissed.

 

[QMAKER]

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