Cue Design Theft This Crap Needs To Stop!!!!

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And to be clear, I am against design theft, I am also against hypocrisy, which is what you are practicing here, in my opinion of course.

Well John in my opinion, you are responsible for design theft. I am talking about the entire line of Porper Knock off cases that you over see production of for Sterling Billiards. Now like I said John your hands are dirty, so every time you open your mouth concerning this subject it is Hypocritical.:wink:[/QUOTE]

It would be if I weren't aware of the situation and willing to discuss it openly.

I am against design theft. I have told my colleagues that I want us to move away from the Porper knockoffs and the Instroke knockoffs. When they picked them up they didn't even know that the cases were originated by Porper and Instroke. This is how ingrained such knockoffs have become in our industry.

If I could wipe them all out now from our line up I would. But with nearly 200,000 catalogs out there we need to remove them from next year's catalog and phase them out.

So, you're right Craig, as long as I am involved and continue to make this style then I am helping to further taking Porper's design. It's a wash though in my personal case because Joe took plenty of my designs and other's designs over the years. You could say that we borrow from each other liberally.

You on the other hand get on here on a soapbox and denounce one company while praising others who do the same thing in far more damaging ways.
 
Ol John Boy pm'ed me this wonderfull offer:
Hey asshole. I will be sure to give you my schedule in the coming year. You are more than welcome to come and insult me to my face.

I bet you will be a chickenshit. Or will you live up to your handle and shoot me from a 1000 yards away?

Which I replied:
Ive been saving my money for bail c**ksucker. I cant ****in wait you piece of shit.

Depending on when and where I meet up with this assclown, I may need to start a bail donation thread.


Joe

I will donate to your bail fund. It might be a hospital bill though unless you are a pyscho sniper who won't face me in person. I can definitely see you as the gutless type who kills people from far away.
 
You are right. Sterling Gaming and every other distributor carries cases that are Porper knockoffs. I have addressed this issue on here before as concerns my involvement with Sterling Gaming. What I have said is that I inherited the situation and as soon as I can I will be phasing them out and replacing them with other designs. The difference between Sterling Gaming and an "EXPERT" like you is that when they created their catalog they had no idea WHO originated which products. They were then novices in the industry. J&J copies people DELIBERATELY.

Why would you support any company that deliberately knocks off products that are still in the marketplace, still being sold by the originators?

All I have done so far is to improve the quality of the ones we carry so that at least the consumer will be getting a better quality product than the other knockoffs and in my opinion better than the original. And to reiterate because I am sure you missed it the first time, as soon as the next catalog comes out we will be beyond the Porper-style cases. I am quite sure that Sterling Gaming's new cases will be the most copied in the coming years.

As I said I have acknowledged this openly.

If you did care to do more than 2 minutes of research then you would have found this. You would have also found that I have been critical of Mr. Justis and his involvement with J&J for the exact same reasons that I am critical of you.

Now you say,

So you selectively choose which items to carry based on which ones are knocked off?

You have never sold a Porper knockoff case?

I mean it's funny that you accuse Carl's cues of being so despicable yet I bet anything you have sold cues and cases that were knocked off from others and that you KNEW full well that the products you sold were knockoffs. Of course I can't prove it, only you know that.

I don't understand why you don't bother to condemn all the other companies who practice design theft when you are so concerned about it.

Starting with yourself.





Sterling Gaming and every other distributor carries cases that are Porper knockoffs. I have addressed this issue on here before as concerns my involvement with Sterling Gaming. What I have said is that I inherited the situation and as soon as I can I will be phasing them out and replacing them with other designs. The difference between Sterling Gaming and an "EXPERT" like you is that when they created their catalog they had no idea WHO originated which products. They were then novices in the industry. J&J copies people DELIBERATELY.

John you have worked for Sterling Billiards since November of 2004, now correct me if I am wrong, but this is September of 2009. John if you really cared that the cases were knock offs it would not take almost 5 years to do something about it. So John, we both know and anyone else who reads this knows that you are experienced when it comes to designing cases and it doesn't take 5 years to change a design. I call Bull Shit John, but keep digging that hole and telling your stories, you know John I think you really believe this crap!!!!!!!!!!!:o

Take a Shower and clean up you own house John, before you accuse anyone of anything.!!!:wink:
 
Sterling Gaming and every other distributor carries cases that are Porper knockoffs. I have addressed this issue on here before as concerns my involvement with Sterling Gaming. What I have said is that I inherited the situation and as soon as I can I will be phasing them out and replacing them with other designs. The difference between Sterling Gaming and an "EXPERT" like you is that when they created their catalog they had no idea WHO originated which products. They were then novices in the industry. J&J copies people DELIBERATELY.

John you have worked for Sterling Billiards since November of 2004, now correct me if I am wrong, but this is September of 2009. John if you really cared that the cases were knock offs it would not take almost 5 years to do something about it. So John, we both know and anyone else who reads this knows that you are experienced when it comes to designing cases and it doesn't take 5 years to change a design. I call Bull Shit John, but keep digging that hole and telling your stories, you know John I think you really believe this crap!!!!!!!!!!!:o

Take a Shower and clean up you own house John, before you accuse anyone of anything.!!!:wink:

I haven't worked for Sterling Gaming in the product development capacity for that long. I hadn't started doing anything on cases until mid 2007.

But as far as that goes when I did start in on the mass production cases in April 2008 I immediately changed the cases for the better.

Yes, they retained the similar look to older Porpers because they are still pictured in the catalog and I have to keep with that until we come out with the new catalog.

However we have introduced many new lines that will make the next catalog and those and others will replace the Porper and Instroke knockoffs.

Keep trying though. Someday you might actually win a point.

Now you know how I feel about it and my stance on it as someone who IS actually involved in the production of cases.

How do you feel though about the fact that you support J&J who deliberately knocks off American products?
 
Well John in my opinion, you are responsible for design theft. I am talking about the entire line of Porper Knock off cases that you over see production of for Sterling Billiards. Now like I said John your hands are dirty, so every time you open your mouth concerning this subject it is Hypocritical.:wink:

It would be if I weren't aware of the situation and willing to discuss it openly.

I am against design theft. I have told my colleagues that I want us to move away from the Porper knockoffs and the Instroke knockoffs. When they picked them up they didn't even know that the cases were originated by Porper and Instroke. This is how ingrained such knockoffs have become in our industry.

If I could wipe them all out now from our line up I would. But with nearly 200,000 catalogs out there we need to remove them from next year's catalog and phase them out.

So, you're right Craig, as long as I am involved and continue to make this style then I am helping to further taking Porper's design. It's a wash though in my personal case because Joe took plenty of my designs and other's designs over the years. You could say that we borrow from each other liberally.

You on the other hand get on here on a soapbox and denounce one company while praising others who do the same thing in far more damaging ways.[/QUOTE]



So, you're right Craig, as long as I am involved and continue to make this style then I am helping to further taking Porper's design. It's a wash though in my personal case because Joe took plenty of my designs and other's designs over the years. You could say that we borrow from each other liberally.


So John you are saying because someone stole something from you, it is OK to steal something else from them, John I have always been aware that you have no morals, but I never expected you to prove my point!!!! John at least in my world two wrongs do not make anything right.


If I could wipe them all out now from our line up I would. But with nearly 200,000 catalogs out there we need to remove them from next year's catalog and phase them out.

John, I will hold you to that, but I will not hold my breath, because after 5 years I certainly do not believe you will ever get things changed!!!:wink:


Thanks John!!!!!!:smile:
 
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It would be if I weren't aware of the situation and willing to discuss it openly.

I am against design theft. I have told my colleagues that I want us to move away from the Porper knockoffs and the Instroke knockoffs. When they picked them up they didn't even know that the cases were originated by Porper and Instroke. This is how ingrained such knockoffs have become in our industry.

If I could wipe them all out now from our line up I would. But with nearly 200,000 catalogs out there we need to remove them from next year's catalog and phase them out.

So, you're right Craig, as long as I am involved and continue to make this style then I am helping to further taking Porper's design. It's a wash though in my personal case because Joe took plenty of my designs and other's designs over the years. You could say that we borrow from each other liberally.

You on the other hand get on here on a soapbox and denounce one company while praising others who do the same thing in far more damaging ways.



So, you're right Craig, as long as I am involved and continue to make this style then I am helping to further taking Porper's design. It's a wash though in my personal case because Joe took plenty of my designs and other's designs over the years. You could say that we borrow from each other liberally.


So John you are saying because someone stole something from you, it is OK to steal something else from them, John I have always been aware that you have no morals, but I never expected you to prove my point!!!! John at least in my world two wrongs do not make anything right.


If I could wipe them all out now from our line up I would. But with nearly 200,000 catalogs out there we need to remove them from next year's catalog and phase them out.

John, I will hold you to that, but I will not hold my breath, because after years I certainly do not believe you will ever get things changed!!!:wink:


Thanks John!!!!!!:smile:

First of all I didn't order the Porper knockoffs to be made. As I said inherited this situation.

Unlike J&J I didn't go to a factory with an Porper case or an Instroke case in hand and ask them to copy it.

Secondly, even though I did inherit this situation I do feel very little remorse for working for a company that unknowingly brought Porper copies on board. This is because I do not share your moral high horse and realize that everyone borrows influence from others.

Porper used my designs, he used my modifications of AVP's designs, so I don't feel bad in the least for overseeing continuing production of cases which borrow from his designs. However, as a I said I don't want to continue making these because I think Sterling can be a leader in cases rather than a follower.

This starts for me with the interiors which I have improved. Come next year there will be new looks to go with the improved interiors.

J&J however just copies with the goal of completely stealing the design and undercutting everyone else using the stolen design.

And you knowingly support J&J in this.

How do you feel about your own role in this?
 
In terms of their low quality, you're correct. But here's what I said: "I vowed never to consider one and to advise others against them because of their unethical practice of copying the exterior design of other companies' humidors." It's their being blatant copies, not the low quality, that prompted my commitment. The quality issue is ultimately a personal decision that each consumer needs to make. I'll certainly do my part in warning people about the inferior quality and the likelihood of compromised function, but that's not why I mentioned protectionism.

I fully agree with you. The only protectionism I would like to see however is the following.

I would like to see our children educated in what intellectual property is and that stealing it is the same as stealing someone's physical property.

I would like our laws reformed so that ornamental design on useful objects are copyrightable.

I would like to see copyright, trademark, and patent infringement be criminalized and those who do it be charged with felonies.

I would also like to see intellectual property laws reformed so that it's harder to register but comes with true protection. The kind of protection where people who display knockoffs face very real arrest if they don't have proof that they are selling authorized goods when the police show up.

I would love it if we lived in the type of world where if you sell copies of Meucci cues on Ebay then your warehouse can be raided and you can be arrested and all your goods destroyed.

Actually we do live in that sort of world now in SELECT instances.

In order for this to work now the IP owner has to register EACH product with US Customs for a per product fee. Then customs will investigate claims made by the IP owner and seize counterfeit goods.

However the problem occurs when the products in question are NOT direct knockoffs and don't carry the same trademarked brand name. When they are very close then it becomes a civil matter between two companies.

It's kind of a sad world in this respect.

I had a factory owner here tell me that it's not his business to go and find out who is the originator of the products he is presented with. His job is to make the products that customers bring to him and not worry about the legalities of it. I can't really fault that thinking when I look at it from his perspective of having a factory that needs to keep running.

Even in the USA I can go to any number of factories and have them make products for me and they don't question whether I have the right to make them or not.

You're right, it's the importers and their dealers who are the perpetrators in this continuing sadness that is duping the consumers. No animal is as vicious to other animals as humans are to each other. I get depressed thinking about it.

What I do now to combat it is to realize the only way to win is to just innovate, don't rest on any designs, and stay ahead. I market to the people who want the newest and the best.
 
First of all I didn't order the Porper knockoffs to be made. As I said inherited this situation.

Unlike J&J I didn't go to a factory with an Porper case or an Instroke case in hand and ask them to copy it.

Secondly, even though I did inherit this situation I do feel very little remorse for working for a company that unknowingly brought Porper copies on board. This is because I do not share your moral high horse and realize that everyone borrows influence from others.

Porper used my designs, he used my modifications of AVP's designs, so I don't feel bad in the least for overseeing continuing production of cases which borrow from his designs. However, as a I said I don't want to continue making these because I think Sterling can be a leader in cases rather than a follower.

This starts for me with the interiors which I have improved. Come next year there will be new looks to go with the improved interiors.

J&J however just copies with the goal of completely stealing the design and undercutting everyone else using the stolen design.

And you knowingly support J&J in this.

How do you feel about your own role in this?

Like I have said, I do not sell any knock off designs, lets send Jack Justis a Pm and ask him if he feels Bad because J & J is his customer. I will not get back to you John, but maybe Jack will have something to say!!!!:wink:

When Joe Porper started making cases you were in Diapers John, to claim he stole your designs is unbelievable, please show us a Copy of a Barton design made by Joe Porper.


First of all I didn't order the Porper knockoffs to be made. As I said inherited this situation.

Unlike J&J I didn't go to a factory with an Porper case or an Instroke case in hand and ask them to copy it.

Secondly, even though I did inherit this situation I do feel very little remorse for working for a company that unknowingly brought Porper copies on board. This is because I do not share your moral high horse and realize that everyone borrows influence from others.

Porper used my designs, he used my modifications of AVP's designs, so I don't feel bad in the least for overseeing continuing production of cases which borrow from his designs. However, as a I said I don't want to continue making these because I think Sterling can be a leader in cases rather than a follower.



All I can say is Bull Shit John!!!!!! How stupid do you think people are you have no moral character John, you never have and I doubt by your posts you will ever change. You have sold out your country in both word and deed, and you have sold out yourself!!!!!!!! John are you an American Citizen?

John, this is the last post I will answer from you or ever make to you. If I ever meet you on a personal level some where, some time, we can personally discuss our different opinions. Oh and John bet your ass, I will say everything I have ever said on this forum to your face!!!!!!!!!:wink:
 
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Mike was robbed

There is a difference between design theft and innovation. Design theft happens when someone makes a copy of an item with the same or less quality.

Innovation is when someone take influence from a design and comes out with a different product.

Everything that we use is designed through influences from what came before it.

If a knock off happens to be better quality than the original then it's good for the consumers of that product but it's still design theft.

You take a guy like Carl's Cues and he is obviously slimy BUT at least he is open about the fact that he is selling cheap knockoffs. I highly doubt that many people will think that they are getting $700 worth of cue for $29

Actually Mike did not have a patent on the one-piece ferrule design. He had a patent pending when everyone else decided that eliminating the tip was a good idea as well. And he wasn't the first one who did this just the first person who patented it. Pat Fleming was jumping balls with tipless and ferrule-less cues 20 years ago.

There is a whole section of patenting called predatory patents where people patent things that are common practice but no one has patented and then seek to extract back royalties from people who have been doing this.

Patents are not hard to get in the field of billiards. Just because a person has a patent does not mean that it can not be challenged, does not mean that it is valid. Patent examiners have very little time to research and see if the patent is truly an improvement over existing solutions.

Mike's patent has claimed that his one piece ferrule design facilitates a type of shot that was not possible before and this is untrue. The fact is that the same or similar material was used on cues in tip form prior to Mike filing his patent and the performance, which is what patents are concerned with, was the same as what Mike claims his device created for the first time. Basically Mike's patent claims that by eliminating the tip he created a cue which performed better than what was already on the market.

This is not true.

Just want to clear that up. If you go back far enough you can usually find patents that cover almost every type of tip and ferrule system. I have studied billiard patents all the way back to around 1900 or so.

Getting a patent is relatively easy, as far as the billiard industry goes at least. Defending it is expensive and hard to do.

Same goes for trademarks and copyrights.

It's like being born. That's the easy part, living is what's hard.



I seem to remember a Mccuemaker in the US that made an identical breakcue just like Mike's. They caled it a "Sledgehammer" same as Mikes. I do not believe that they were produced out of Mike's basement so why is an American company stealing from Mike?
Sledgehammer.asp


The tip was better than anything on the market at the time that is why everyone stole his idea and ran with it. Who used a phenolic ferrule without a tip before Mike?

Also Mikes tip makes it so my eight year old can jump balls with ease.
 
Like I have said, I do not sell any knock off designs, lets send Jack Justis a Pm and ask him if he feels Bad because J & J is his customer. I will not get back to you John, but maybe Jack will have something to say!!!!:wink:

When Joe Porper started making cases you were in Diapers John, to claim he stole your designs is unbelievable, please show us a Copy of a Barton design made by Joe Porper.


First of all I didn't order the Porper knockoffs to be made. As I said inherited this situation.

Unlike J&J I didn't go to a factory with an Porper case or an Instroke case in hand and ask them to copy it.

Secondly, even though I did inherit this situation I do feel very little remorse for working for a company that unknowingly brought Porper copies on board. This is because I do not share your moral high horse and realize that everyone borrows influence from others.

Porper used my designs, he used my modifications of AVP's designs, so I don't feel bad in the least for overseeing continuing production of cases which borrow from his designs. However, as a I said I don't want to continue making these because I think Sterling can be a leader in cases rather than a follower.



All I can say is Bull Shit John!!!!!! How stupid do you think people are you have no moral character John, you never have and I doubt by your posts you will ever change. You have sold out your country in both word and deed, and you have sold out yourself!!!!!!!! John are you an American Citizen?

John, this is the last post I will answer from you or ever make to you. If I ever meet you on a personal level some where, some time, we can personally discuss our different opinions. Oh and John bet your ass, I will say everything I have ever said on this forum to your face!!!!!!!!!:wink:

You need to brush up on your history.

This is the most famous Instroke design. I called it the "Cowboy" and it's distinguished by the scallops on the front and back. No one had ever done this before Instroke.

isc24-bk_br_b.jpg


This case took my signature scallop design from the Instroke Cowboy series.

http://www.porper.com/index.cfm?CFI...alog.Product&displayView=closeup&productID=44

44_closeup.jpg


This is my original modification of the American Vinyl Products case.

DSCF0162_B.JPG


I added pockets, switched the handle to the other side, did a better job on the strap, and changed the interior to a more protective one.

This is what Porper came out with after mine was out a few years:
http://www.porper.com/index.cfm?CFI...alog.Product&displayView=closeup&productID=48

48_closeup.jpg


Also, Joe started making cases in 1985. I was 17 in 1985. Joe started making cases after seeing Bob Meucci's cases which used structural foam for the interiors. Leonard Bludworth helped Joe to setup his foam mixing system to injection mold the interiors.

The first hard case I ever owned was a Joe Porper. I bought it in 1987. I started making cases in 1991.

Funny how this thread comes full circle.

I bet that you do respond to me.
 
I will donate to your bail fund. It might be a hospital bill though unless you are a pyscho sniper who won't face me in person. I can definitely see you as the gutless type who kills people from far away.

Dont worry your little head there dick, you will see my face. Ill leave the Remington at home. Dont forget to send me your schedule too, I cant wait to dance, *****.

Joe
 
I seem to remember a Mccuemaker in the US that made an identical breakcue just like Mike's. They caled it a "Sledgehammer" same as Mikes. I do not believe that they were produced out of Mike's basement so why is an American company stealing from Mike?
Sledgehammer.asp


The tip was better than anything on the market at the time that is why everyone stole his idea and ran with it. Who used a phenolic ferrule without a tip before Mike?

Actually, some folks on RSB suggested using rounded off ferrules if I remember right. But the patent claim is that the rounded off ferrule ENABLED the jump shot. This was clearly not true as people were using the phenolic tips long before Mike decided to just use the ferrule and those cues were all being used to jump balls with ease.

Also Mikes tip makes it so my eight year old can jump balls with ease.

I disagree with you that Mike's tip was better than all else that was on the market at the time.

I was selling the Bunjee Jumper and Mike's tip did not ever out jump the stock Bunjee Jumper jump cue. When I made the Bunjee Breaker I do not believe that the Mike's set up was better than the tip we had on the Bunjee Breaker.

At several shows it was proven that the Bunjee was not outperformed by the Sledgehammer.

That's my only contention here. Of course it's a matter of opinion for each person. I feel that in the objective tests we did using people who were quite accomplished as jumpers and players there was no performance edge in the Sledgehammer over the Bunjee, back then. Now there might be a difference - I don't know, I have not been that involved in the jump and jump break cue segment for several years. We make a jump/break cue that works as well as a Bunjee and that means it does everything that I think it should do.
 
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Dont worry your little head there dick, you will see my face. Ill leave the Remington at home. Dont forget to send me your schedule too, I cant wait to dance, *****.

Joe

We'll see. Obviously you are completely over matched here. Maybe you can prove something in person, maybe you can't.
 
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So which came first? The Sledgehammer or the Bunjee????????

The Bunjee, I think. I brought the Bunjee out in 1998. It debuted at the BCA and VNEA Nationals in May of that year. I believe that the Sledgehammer came out a few years later.

Before the Bunjee Jumper however there were many jump cues using phenolic tips. And the Bunjee type cue with the flared end was developed by Hans Jorg Bertram in Germany. The cue that became the Bunjee was made by Franz Hauber in Germany. I had been bringing about a half dozen Hauber cues to shows for several years. Franz Hauber gave me permission to make the Bunjee for the price of 100 cues and the right to buy them below wholesale in the future. "Bunjee Jumper" was a brand name that we made up.

I do think that the Sledgehammer break/jump cue was out before the Bunjee Breaker. The Bunjee Breaker however continued to use a composite tip on a fiber ferrule just as the Bunjee jumpers were using.
 
John,

Nice to see you making yet another appearance in these types of posts. I have something that I really feel that I need to get of my chest.

For the past few months I have been kicking around the idea of buying a new case. And When I first saw your Jay Flowers type case I really liked these cases and I thought well there's a case that I would like to own.

However as the months went by and after reading my fair share of your posts here on AZB I have come to the decision that I will never own or buy a product from you. Why ? I cannot allow myself to support a former or current American citizen that has the opinion that you do.

While I respect the fact that all people should be allowed to state their opinion as a business man you have lost all of my business forever.

So in closing my money is going to an American Casemaker, I'm sure I'll be very happy with my new Ron Thomas case that I just ordered. I know that Ron was very happy to take my order and I feel much better knowing that my money is going to a American citizen and not someone such as yourself.

Take it however you want John but I feel you have crossed the line with many members here and your rants are now costing you $$$$

Have a nice day,

Frank
 
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