cue makers or extra job.

[Craig Fales]

$869,000 for HUMPING A Golf Bag, where do I apply?

They do alot more than that.

 

[ShootingArts]

not unreasonable

That's what I was thinking...40% WTF!!!!!

Income tax plus self employment tax. 28% plus 16% and I haven't included state and local taxes.

Hu

 

[bandido]

Mike,

If you try to compete on the basis of price you are going to give away your work. There are always people willing to do anything cheaper. If you go down to doing something at true cost price someone else will fail to recognize true costs and still undercut you!

You can compete with anyone on the basis of quality and value. It doesn't make sense to get upset because you lose a few local sales to the upstarts. You may want to thank them for that. Some people will buy their first custom cue from these guys because it is cheap. Once they learn more about cues they will be buying more custom cues, usually more expensive and of better quality from better known builders. The upstarts are making business for you in the long term.

Turn out your quality of work at your price. There are people that will happily pay several thousand for your cue that would turn their nose up at the same cue if you tried to sell it for $200. Be happy with your market and don't worry about other makers and their markets.

Hu

This is a sound advice. I went through what you're going through, MG. And I'm sure that a few here did too. Let your challengers push you to innovate instead of find ways to cut on cost to compete. It is at this time that you need to make your desire to push the bar of excellent craftsmanship higher and turn such into a habit. Use the challenges as a fuel than a flame to burn you down.

Got to warn you though, it's addictive. A time will come when you'll look for these challenges for inspiration. I know I did.

Edwin<<<<where'd those guys or "Filipino Cues" threads go?!!

 

[BlowFish]

Very true. My hats off to you.

Mike.....You just have to live for yourself....You just have to go to bed at night with your mind clear...You can't worry about what others are doing...It will only eat at you and give you ulcers......
25 years ago when I started ny Pest Control business I took in a partner who had no money but would pay me back as business perked up...I accidently caught him and his wife stealing money from me....They had opened another account under the company name at a different bank....She was our secretary and answered the phone...She would give him jobs and he would get the check and put it in "their" business account...When I confronted them they said, "so what?" So sue us.....
I hired a lawyer but with courts the way they are it was going to take serval months to go to trial.....In the meantime the courts froze all assets and our monies...So what was I to do for income in the meantime?????
I was pissed....I thought about catching him in the rest room at the Bowling establishment we both bowled at and beating him something terrible...I even , because I could not sleep at night, thought about hiring someone to really mess him up real bad...
Then a friend said to just give him half of everything and go on with my life. Don't worry about him and what he is doing but worry about your own life and taking care of your family and make a good living and get some sleep at night...Even if he goes on to be the biggest company in Calif. making millions, so what.....Take care of your family and yourself.

My wife had a fit I even suggested giving him half after what he had done.....But I did it.....I did it to get on with my life and forget about worrying about him and what he had done....

I have been in business 25 years now, very successful and he has been out of business for 10 years now and selling Amway.....

I have been very happy since because I don't have him to worry about....My point is, you are doing it right. If others are not paying taxes or running their business the right way, so what??? Forget what you have no control over, keep doing the right thing, your customers that know you will see that, and you will be a much happier person...Live to make you and your family happy because the time you spend worrying about what others are doing is taking away from your family and your work.
No matter how hard you try you will not make everyone happy...But make yourself and your family happy...That's all that counts.....

 

[Detlev Rackow]

A different point of view:

You discussed this publicly. Are you willing to turn them in publicly, or anonymous? I guess that anonymous is no longer possible. Either those cuemakers or some buddy or customer will read on here, and if they get busted now, everybody will know who told the tale.

Regards,

Detlev

 

[Roadkill]

The only workable solution is for Mike to stop paying taxes.

I think he can do this legally by using an offshore address, forming a non-profit organization, increasing write-offs, becoming a legal citizen of Monte Carlo, etc., etc.

 

[manwon]

Thanks for all the responses. Actually I am doing very well. I make 6 figures making custom cues. I work a lot but I like it. What really ticks me about the whole deal is the non tax payers. I am charged every month about 40% by the government. Just a little info on my location, I moved to Greenville, S.C. 20 years ago and there was nothing here as far as my work. Now there are 16 cue repairmen and 4 make cues and all got started either working for me or coming to my shop everyday till they got what they needed. I helped a lot of pool people make money and never got a thank you from one of them. But back to taxes and my thoughts. I feel like I should turn in the ones working under the table because it is not fair for me to pay and they pocket all their money. Now what do you think about that.

Mike I agree that taxes are a *****, I own a pool hall, retail store, do cue repairs, and build custom conversion cues for my local customers. However, if you report those cue makers not paying taxes, then you must also report all the cue sellers who deal cues and some of your cues on this site without paying taxes. Then you must go after those selling on ebay who do not pay taxes. Now in the process of doing this you are also going to burn people who are buying and selling your cues, so you will also lose those orders. Mike I think this problem is to big for a single man to combat, and I also think you will drive yourself crazy in the long run trying to do it.

One thing I have learned in life is to change what I am able to change, to recognize what is beyond my simple ability. Now I am not saying except wrong doing by others, but I have learned that you can lose a battle and still win the war. Finding the center is the key to victory, along with keeping your Friends close and your enemies closer.

 

[ratcues]

Thanks for all the responses. Actually I am doing very well. I make 6 figures making custom cues. I work a lot but I like it. What really ticks me about the whole deal is the non tax payers. I am charged every month about 40% by the government. Just a little info on my location, I moved to Greenville, S.C. 20 years ago and there was nothing here as far as my work. Now there are 16 cue repairmen and 4 make cues and all got started either working for me or coming to my shop everyday till they got what they needed. I helped a lot of pool people make money and never got a thank you from one of them. But back to taxes and my thoughts. I feel like I should turn in the ones working under the table because it is not fair for me to pay and they pocket all their money. Now what do you think about that.

There is not much you can or should do with these guys. Best bet now is to have new helper sign a "no-compete" clause.

I build and repair cues full time and then some. I make a decent living but I LOVE what I do. Yes, I could make more money doing something else, but my happiness is most important to me and my family.

 

[Cornerman]

My question is how many of these hundreds of thousands of cue makers are actually in this business or just have an extra job to subsidize their income.
....
Who makes cues for their living or just for money. I think only a few.

Beyond the rest of your original post, is what I think is the original question: What cuemakers are full-time cuemakers making all if not the vast majority of their livelihood from making cues?

I think that's your question? I can tell you that of all the cuemakers that I've done articles on, there have been only a few that either don't do it full-time or are retired and only do cuemaking as their sole source of income.

The rest are full-time. And I have a list of cuemakers that I'll never get through that are full-time.

But, out of the 500-1000 cuemakers that are out there, I'll be conservative and guess that 100 are truly full-time. I could be waaaaaaaay off, however.

I dont know what category we put people in that, say, have made their money doing other things, and now can afford to only do cuemaking, whether it was owning and selling a business, being a stockbroker, making motorcycle parts, investing well, flipping a home in a good market ....

Fred

 

[corvette1340]

The top 99 on the PGA 2007 money list earned 1 million+. The top 34 earned two million+. A caddy for a PGA pro makes a salary, plus a cut of winnings. The cut is between 5 and 10%, so lets take the average and bump it up to 8%.

The top caddy would (Tiger's caddy ofcourse) make $869,000.

The 34th caddy would make $163,000.

The caddy in 99th on the money list would have made around $81,000.

Those estimates are probably a little low. I don't know what the salary usually is, but a PGA win is usually 10% for the caddy, and I believe Tiger's caddy made something like 1.2 million last year.

Yes Hu, I bet a comparison of the 34th top cue maker, and 34th top pool player to $163,000 would be ugly and laughable.

Kelly

Steve Williams gets paid between 4-5 million a year in Salary. He doesn't get a % of Tiger's winnings but only a set salary that far outweighs what he would make if he got a percentage. Tiger can afford to pay in this manner because he makes over 100 million a year in endorsements. Phil Mickelson's caddie "Bones" also gets paid in this manner.

 

[desi2960]

hobby

Mike, i build cues as a hobby and sell a few to buy more materials, equipment upkeep, etc. When i first talked to Chris Hightower about building cues, he ask what did i want to accomplish? He ask if i was going to try to build cues as a living, and explained to me how hard it was. My answer was i wanted to see just how good of a cue i could build. I do not know you personally, but have heard, your cues look and play great. my question is , do you think the 254 cues i have made in the last 7 years, has effected you in any way? imo the small amount of cues made by hobbist will never have any effect on the cue market. btw the word is spelled straight. chuck

 

[catscradle]

You can't stop anyone from entering your line of business.
Think of the people who were displaced by outsourcing.

If you build cues full-time, you better be living cheap b/c there is no money in it.

I've 2 sounds who are artists. I think cuemaking runs the same way as art. There are a very few who make it big, real big. They have orders out the ying-yang and can charge virtually what they want. There is a larger but still pretty small subset who make a "decent" living at it. There is a somewhat larger subset who do it fulltime, but have to live really close to the bone. Lastly there is the vast majority who can only afford to make cues (or art) by having a "day job".

 

[catscradle]

Mully if you only know what it entails to make world class cues, you wouldn't do it. Most don't.
It's just like pool. Sure Efren makes money. Now take your time spent on pool and put it on A TRADE.
Comparatively speaking, pool would be next to nothing.
Ask John Schmidt.
Might as well learn how to be a caddy.

Isn't this true of anybody self-employed in any line of endeavor. If they ever stop and calculate their rate per hour, they would be very discouraged. The vast majority of private businesses require and enormous investment of hours by the owner(s).

 

[catscradle]

Thanks for all the responses. Actually I am doing very well. I make 6 figures making custom cues. I work a lot but I like it. What really ticks me about the whole deal is the non tax payers. I am charged every month about 40% by the government. Just a little info on my location, I moved to Greenville, S.C. 20 years ago and there was nothing here as far as my work. Now there are 16 cue repairmen and 4 make cues and all got started either working for me or coming to my shop everyday till they got what they needed. I helped a lot of pool people make money and never got a thank you from one of them. But back to taxes and my thoughts. I feel like I should turn in the ones working under the table because it is not fair for me to pay and they pocket all their money. Now what do you think about that.

You'd be justified, but you'd probably be putting them out of business. Do they really compete with you? Your business is based upon your national (if not international) reputation, to what degree do these guys hurt you?
My opinion, don't deal with the government in anyway you don't have to, even to turn in a tax dodger.

<Edit> BTW, unless these people ran it by you first, I think they were pretty ungrateful.

 

[catscradle]

Steve Williams gets paid between 4-5 million a year in Salary. He doesn't get a % of Tiger's winnings but only a set salary that far outweighs what he would make if he got a percentage. Tiger can afford to pay in this manner because he makes over 100 million a year in endorsements. Phil Mickelson's caddie "Bones" also gets paid in this manner.

And let us not forget... Aren't these "caddies" pretty damn good golfers in their own right and provide much more to their employers than a club carrying service.

 

[wincardona]

Right on

There is a very old rule of thumb for job security-

NEVER tell any of your secrets or teach anybody how you do what you do...

Cuemakers should be no different... Sounds like you made a HUGE mistake in Greenville. Lesson learned I suppose...

Excellent prospective.

Mike,we have known oneanother for quite some time,and I respect you as a player/cue builder/person.On your thoughts about turning people in to the I.R.S. I know you really don't want to do that and you shouldn't. Thecoats said it perfectly when he said that you are lucky you can afford to pay your taxes,some people can't.

CaptiveBred also has given you gret advice,sorta like what we do in Vegas stays in Vegas. Meaning,what you do in your shop stays in your shop.

My advice to you is, move on with your life,you'll do fine. There is an old saying that goes like this. Dont hate the player hate the game. So good luck Mike,see ya down the road.

 

[MachineGunKelly]

Well put Mr. Incardona. Great advice

 

[Johnnyt]

Don't say IRS. I just got and paid a fine of $800 from them. I forgot one Racing Greyhound I owned in 2006. GRRRRRRRRRR. Johnnyt

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Mike I have had similar problems. As a Qmaker, I have also sold other brands of Qs, out of my shop. A close friend of mine used to sell Joey Golds Qs, out of his house. It was the best prices in the country , because he only marked them up $50. Here I was paying state, local & federal taxes on everything & he paid nothing. It is dicouraging, but the thing that hurt me, was when someone wanted me to give them a price on one of Joey's Qs. Everyone thought I was ripping them off. I couldn't compete with his prices & still stay in business. Several people bad mouthed me & my prices, to all who would listen. He is no longer in the Q business & this is my 22 year as a Qmaker, so I guess I whethered the storm pretty well. Still in all, I feel for you & know what you mean...JER