Cue makers to stay away from

Well I'm not sure how someone would be able to without Tony's knowing but if that is the case THATS A HUGE DEAL and while I'm not one for ratting anyone out something like this if it's true should be brought to Tony's attention ( by whomever this was done to ) because as one of the top cue makers in the world his reputation could be seriously and permanently damaged.

How do you figure this could hurt Tony's reputation? From the information posted so far he is not claiming that Tony did any of the work. In fact he is making it real clear that it is only his work and apparently Tony doesn't even know about it. He is not trying to sell them or pass them off as Black Boar cues. He is selling them as his own Bernie cues made with the experience that he gained from working in Tony's shop. You know, the exact same thing that literally half the other cue makers in the world do which is to try to pump up their credibility by making it known that they got their experience from working in so and so cue makers shop.

Now if we find out he is putting the Black Boar logo on these cues (which we have no reason to believe at this moment) then that would be an entirely different story and then it could affect Tony's reputation. Now what you can argue is that Tony should be made aware because this guy may potentially be stealing some of Tony's customers which is an obvious no no for an employee to do to an employer. You can argue that Tony should be made aware if this guy was using his work equipment (Tony's equipment) for his own personal uses which would also be an obvious no no for an employee to do an employer (although we don't even know if he is using Tony's equipment at this point, maybe he is making them at his own house with his own equipment). You can argue Tony should be made aware because maybe this guy is using some of Tony's materials such as wood and glue and pins etc which would be theft (but again we don't even know this is happening). Tony's reputation however isn't at stake based on what we know. You have the wrong worries in mind.
 
How do you figure this could hurt Tony's reputation? From the information posted so far he is not claiming that Tony did any of the work. In fact he is making it real clear that it is only his work and apparently Tony doesn't even know about it. He is not trying to sell them or pass them off as Black Boar cues. He is selling them as his own Bernie cues made with the experience that he gained from working in Tony's shop. You know, the exact same thing that literally half the other cue makers in the world do which is to try to pump up their credibility by making it known that they got their experience from working in so and so cue makers shop.

Now if we find out he is putting the Black Boar logo on these cues (which we have no reason to believe at this moment) then that would be an entirely different story and then it could affect Tony's reputation. Now what you can argue is that Tony should be made aware because this guy may potentially be stealing some of Tony's customers which is an obvious no no for an employee to do to an employer. You can argue that Tony should be made aware if this guy was using his work equipment (Tony's equipment) for his own personal uses which would also be an obvious no no for an employee to do an employer (although we don't even know if he is using Tony's equipment at this point, maybe he is making them at his own house with his own equipment). You can argue Tony should be made aware because maybe this guy is using some of Tony's materials such as wood and glue and pins etc which would be theft (but again we don't even know this is happening). Tony's reputation however isn't at stake based on what we know. You have the wrong worries in mind.

Well, as it was initially stated this guy was claiming he works at Boar. Someone has come on here and said that he definitely does not work for Boar. So if this guy rips off someone and they think he is with Tony, that could certainly hurt Tony'S reputation . This guy says that he is using Tony'S techniques - so if he is making sub standard cues and putting them out there telling he is using Tony's techniques that could certainly hurt his reputation. I agree with your entire second paragraph.

Bottom line, do you not think this is something Tony should know about and would want to know about?
 
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yea

You can probably find Bernie Monday morning if youwant to serve papers. He'll be in line at the unemployment office.

That's funny but I doubt this guy even works for Tony, I would like to see member Radar post on this matter I believe he knows Tony pretty well and is in that shop from time to time. He will no if this guy is a friend of Tonys.
 
Well, as it was initially stated this guy was claiming he works at Boar. Someone has come on here and said that he definitely does not work for Boar. So if this guy rips off someone and they think he is with Tony, that could certainly hurt Tony'S reputation . This guy says that he is using Tony'S techniques - so if he is making sub standard cues and putting them out there telling he is using Tony's techniques that could certainly hurt his reputation. I agree with your entire second paragraph.

Bottom line, do you not think this is something Tony should know about and would want to know about?

Again, if a guy is making it clear that he is making cues on his own (which is the information we have) then it doesn't affect Tony's reputation whether BernieCues turn out to be crap, or whether Bernie rips people off, or anything else. They are BernieCues, not Black Boar cues. It doesn't hurt Tony any more than if they were BobbyCues or BillyCues from any other cue makers out there.

I do think Tony should be made aware of it simply because the guy is apparently an employee and is trying to steal Tony's customers, which is a form of theft, and is a huge no no in an employee/employer relationship. There is also enough reason for suspicion that the guy may possibly be using Tony's equipment or materials (which would also be theft) to warrant letting Tony know so he can investigate that possibility.

Now if the guy is not an employee of Tony's and never was an employee then Tony should be made aware so he can put a stop to the false claims that the guy used to work for him.

If the guy did actually used to be an employee of Tony's, but isn't any more, then the guy really isn't doing anything wrong and there isn't really anything for Tony to have a right to do anything about. In that case Bernie is just another competitor out there and is just being honest about where he got some or all of his experience. It would be nice to let Tony be aware of what is going on so that he can monitor the situation and make sure the guy doesn't try to make fake Black Boars at some point or cross some other line but for right now there isn't much for Tony to be able to say anything about in this case.

On a side note, I often see you talking about how it isn't right to rat on people. Ratting on people is either wrong, or isn't. Right and wrong never changes based on how well you like the people involved. If you believe it is wrong you should be keeping your mouth shut all the time every time. If you don't believe it is wrong (which you obviously don't because there are times when you want to rat on people just like right now) then stop with the "it's wrong to rat on people" nonsense you sometimes say because it is a lie that you don't even believe yourself.
 
How do you figure this could hurt Tony's reputation? From the information posted so far he is not claiming that Tony did any of the work. In fact he is making it real clear that it is only his work and apparently Tony doesn't even know about it. He is not trying to sell them or pass them off as Black Boar cues. He is selling them as his own Bernie cues made with the experience that he gained from working in Tony's shop. You know, the exact same thing that literally half the other cue makers in the world do which is to try to pump up their credibility by making it known that they got their experience from working in so and so cue makers shop.

Now if we find out he is putting the Black Boar logo on these cues (which we have no reason to believe at this moment) then that would be an entirely different story and then it could affect Tony's reputation. Now what you can argue is that Tony should be made aware because this guy may potentially be stealing some of Tony's customers which is an obvious no no for an employee to do to an employer. You can argue that Tony should be made aware if this guy was using his work equipment (Tony's equipment) for his own personal uses which would also be an obvious no no for an employee to do an employer (although we don't even know if he is using Tony's equipment at this point, maybe he is making them at his own house with his own equipment). You can argue Tony should be made aware because maybe this guy is using some of Tony's materials such as wood and glue and pins etc which would be theft (but again we don't even know this is happening). Tony's reputation however isn't at stake based on what we know. You have the wrong worries in mind.

this is a very good post and point!

Additionally, I spoke to Tony yesterday!!!

He is quoting a starting price of 6 grand for his cues! Much different from the 2 grand the original poster described. Could the original poster or his friend have tried to get a cheaper cue from a beginning cue maker at a discount and hope that the apprentice has adequately learned from the master to produce a comparable product???

Additionally, based on my read $1200 was returned out of the $2100 and it is very common when materials and labor have been exhausted that part of the payment is a deposit of some kind? Yes or no? The cue maker is left to find a "new" buyer for the product in progress or nearly complete??? The $900 is what he may have to discount the cue in order to liquidate the cue and recoup the sale?

I have seen several of his finished cues and they look very good. I don't know anything regarding this particular situation. But, if Tony thinks enough of this guy to allow him into his shop and learn then that is a very good sign as Tony is a very good guy and judge of character!!!

KD
 
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Again, if a guy is making it clear that he is making cues on his own (which is the information we have) then it doesn't affect Tony's reputation whether BernieCues turn out to be crap, or whether Bernie rips people off, or anything else. They are BernieCues, not Black Boar cues. It doesn't hurt Tony any more than if they were BobbyCues or BillyCues from any other cue makers out there.

I do think Tony should be made aware of it simply because the guy is apparently an employee and is trying to steal Tony's customers, which is a form of theft, and is a huge no no in an employee/employer relationship. There is also enough reason for suspicion that the guy may possibly be using Tony's equipment or materials (which would also be theft) to warrant letting Tony know so he can investigate that possibility.

Now if the guy is not an employee of Tony's and never was an employee then Tony should be made aware so he can put a stop to the false claims that the guy used to work for him.

If the guy did actually used to be an employee of Tony's, but isn't any more, then the guy really isn't doing anything wrong and there isn't really anything for Tony to have a right to do anything about. In that case Bernie is just another competitor out there and is just being honest about where he got some or all of his experience. It would be nice to let Tony be aware of what is going on so that he can monitor the situation and make sure the guy doesn't try to make fake Black Boars at some point or cross some other line but for right now there isn't much for Tony to be able to say anything about in this case.

On a side note, I often see you talking about how it isn't right to rat on people. Ratting on people is either wrong, or isn't. Right and wrong never changes based on how well you like the people involved. If you believe it is wrong you should be keeping your mouth shut all the time every time. If you don't believe it is wrong (which you obviously don't because there are times when you want to rat on people just like right now) then stop with the "it's wrong to rat on people" nonsense you sometimes say because it is a lie that you don't even believe yourself.


Shut my mouth, lol - that's a good one 😆. As happens all too often here some fail to realize not every situation is black or white. Situations can be unique and are dealt with accordingly. What's right with one thing may not be right for another. What I have said many times is people are always talking about call the police, file a small claims, hire an attorney etc. I have stated multiple times that I prefer not to get any of those folks involved and I would just like to " settle out of court " myself. I have said and stand by I don't think people should be calling the police to try to get someone in trouble, in this case I said I think Tony should be made aware of something concerning his business. To me that is two totally different things. And yes you are correct, when I know someone I would be way more likely to care about something as opposed to a complete stranger where I could care less. Isn't that pretty much how anyone is? So you have said that you agree Tony should be made aware, I said Tony should be made aware - not sure where your hostility is coming from being that we both think he should be made aware. Many others in this thread also agrees with both of us that he should be made aware. You sir of course are entitled to your opinion and whatever that is its all good - I ain't mad. Have a wonderful day bud.
 
He works for Black Boar and his name is Bernie. Not 100 % sure but I heard from several people that he is doing this without Tony's knowledge.

To funny! Your friend makes a deal. With a guy he knows is stealing technology from his employer. Then is upset when the guy isn't honest! Your friend got what he deserved!

Larry
 
Again, if a guy is making it clear that he is making cues on his own (which is the information we have) then it doesn't affect Tony's reputation whether BernieCues turn out to be crap, or whether Bernie rips people off, or anything else. They are BernieCues, not Black Boar cues. It doesn't hurt Tony any more than if they were BobbyCues or BillyCues from any other cue makers out there.

I do think Tony should be made aware of it simply because the guy is apparently an employee and is trying to steal Tony's customers, which is a form of theft, and is a huge no no in an employee/employer relationship. There is also enough reason for suspicion that the guy may possibly be using Tony's equipment or materials (which would also be theft) to warrant letting Tony know so he can investigate that possibility.

Now if the guy is not an employee of Tony's and never was an employee then Tony should be made aware so he can put a stop to the false claims that the guy used to work for him.

If the guy did actually used to be an employee of Tony's, but isn't any more, then the guy really isn't doing anything wrong and there isn't really anything for Tony to have a right to do anything about. In that case Bernie is just another competitor out there and is just being honest about where he got some or all of his experience. It would be nice to let Tony be aware of what is going on so that he can monitor the situation and make sure the guy doesn't try to make fake Black Boars at some point or cross some other line but for right now there isn't much for Tony to be able to say anything about in this case.

On a side note, I often see you talking about how it isn't right to rat on people. Ratting on people is either wrong, or isn't. Right and wrong never changes based on how well you like the people involved. If you believe it is wrong you should be keeping your mouth shut all the time every time. If you don't believe it is wrong (which you obviously don't because there are times when you want to rat on people just like right now) then stop with the "it's wrong to rat on people" nonsense you sometimes say because it is a lie that you don't even believe yourself.

Bernie is very vocal about how much he appreciates all the knowledge and expertise black boar has provided. Very vocal! He also is very vocal about explaining the sensitive nature of their working relationship!

To come on here and attack the viability of that relationship in the manner we see above is in "very poor taste". I am certain the new buyer for the cue paid 1200 and Bernie gave that money to the OP or his friend! The $900 difference was consistent with the normal deposits placed! Losing the deposit and getting the refund is not uncommon for "custom" designs which is all he does. He builds what the buyer requests!

Just my 2 cents on the topic!

KD
 
Bernie is very vocal about how much he appreciates all the knowledge and expertise black boar has provided. Very vocal! He also is very vocal about explaining the sensitive nature of their working relationship!

To come on here and attack the viability of that relationship in the manner we see above is in "very poor taste". I am certain the new buyer for the cue paid 1200 and Bernie gave that money to the OP or his friend! The $900 difference was consistent with the normal deposits placed! Losing the deposit and getting the refund is not uncommon for "custom" designs which is all he does. He builds what the buyer requests!

Just my 2 cents on the topic!

KD
20 to 25% deposit is normal.
Not 43%.
And he couldn't deliver the cue.
And if his work was any good he'd have no problems selling that cue .
If it got made.
 
20 to 25% deposit is normal.
Not 43%.
And he couldn't deliver the cue.
And if his work was any good he'd have no problems selling that cue .
If it got made.

He has produced about 7 or 8 cues I have seen personally! Hit with a few as well! Based on the available information, this was not "He couldn't deliver the cue" this was he got behind schedule and delayed!!!

footnote: Tony was ill and in the hospital for awhile! This illness could very easily be the reason for the delay ??? If it was and I believe that it was! Don't the OP and his friend feel like $hit if that was the case???

Based on the scenario described, you think 25% is fine and 43% is not? So, Bernie owes 18% using your figures he should have only $500 worth of deposit roughly!!! Still owes $400 and should be "ATTACKED" like this over 400 and ruined professionally???

Really, Really????

KD
 
Deanoc Is Right......

be of good cheer
i have often sent more than that to various pool cue makers
and i have often been treated poorly
missing deliveries by years

it takes out the fun of it
as a group i would say there are a few great ones that do what they say or explain good reasons

the great ones in no particular order are
jerry rauenzahn,bob owen,south west, barry szamboti,bob runde and others probably that don't pop into
my mind

there are many famous ones that i could name that are unreliable to dishonest




The only cue-makers I have personal experience within the last 5 years are Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn.
Both were recommended to me by Dean whom already knew well that I was a very finicky cue buyer.

He gave both a gold star endorsement and I'd like to upgrade that to platinum becasue both are just great.
First of all, their cue-making skills are really on par with anyone you could want to order a cue from.
Secondly, these cue-makers go out of their way to provide their clients timely updates on the status.
Thirdly, they give you great photos of your cue as it is being built and you get to discuss the design.
Lastly, the price of the cues from Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn are just so much better and ...."You Get The Cue".

I've spent a ton on cues from Bob and Jerry just since Dean introduced me to Bob & Jerry back in 2014.
Come to think of it, in hindsight, I'm not sure I should be thanking Dean after looking at the tab......Thank God CA has an ivory ban.......otherwise I'd go broke.


Matt B.
 
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He has produced about 7 or 8 cues I have seen personally! Hit with a few as well! Based on the available information, this was not "He couldn't deliver the cue" this was he got behind schedule and delayed!!!

footnote: Tony was ill and in the hospital for awhile! This illness could very easily be the reason for the delay ??? If it was and I believe that it was! Don't the OP and his friend feel like $hit if that was the case???

Based on the scenario described, you think 25% is fine and 43% is not? So, Bernie owes 18% using your figures he should have only $500 worth of deposit roughly!!! Still owes $400 and should be "ATTACKED" like this over 400 and ruined professionally???
Really, Really????

KD
He gets to keep $500 and the $2100 cue he can easily sell and that's not good enough?
Is that cue worth less than $1600 now?
 
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He gets to keep $500 and the $2100 cue he can easily sell and that's not good enough?
Is that cue worth less than $1600 now?
Yes because it is someone else's design!

Why spend 2100 on someone else's design? When, you can spend 2100 on your own???

A discount is needed to forgo your own design elements? Correct?

I am certain this makes sense to you and at some point it is totally argumentative!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
Yes because it is someone else's design!

Why spend 2100 on someone else's design? When, you can spend 2100 on your own???

A discount is needed to forgo your own design elements? Correct?

I am certain this makes sense to you and at some point it is totally argumentative!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
No, it doesn't .
Sorry.
 
No, it doesn't .
Sorry.
Go figure? Refused to answer why it is logical to forgo your own design elements for a Cue the same price with out those design elements!

Completely 100% logical! What was I thinking? My apologize!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
He works for a very well known cue maker and is doing work on the side. He is telling people he can make a cue with their Technology at a fraction of the cost.

Proving once again that the easiest people for the con man to con are the ones who think they are getting some "special" deal,. In this case the top maker's technique/technology without paying the top maker's price.

People wonder why pool sucks? It is exactly this, a culture that glorifies what most people consider fraud and corruption.

Rooster's buddy was happy when the cue maker was stealing from his employer, but not so happy when he was stealing from him.

And we are supposed to be outraged at the cue maker.

THAT is the culture of pool. Not all of it, but the prevailing culture. The threads here demonstrate it. You cannot go a day or two without someone coming up with a story of some rampantly dishonest or despicable act. Whether is a cue maker, a tournament director, a well known player or whatever. I've been on message boards for years for a variety of activities and sports and this one is the only one where these kinds of rip-off stories are rampant.

And the OP's friend with his something for nothing attitude, and the cue maker who promises him something for nothing, are symptoms and examples of the problem. Two people dishonestly looking for something for nothing. THAT is the culture of pool. It doesn't have to be, but it is.
 
And yes you are correct, when I know someone I would be way more likely to care about something as opposed to a complete stranger where I could care less. Isn't that pretty much how anyone is?

No that isn't how everyone is. Like I said, what is right or wrong doesn't change based on how much you know or like someone. If it does, there is a word in the english language to describe people like that. The word is hypocrite. In any case though, like I said, it doesn't make any sense for you to always say "never rat on anyone", and then turn right around and rat on people. If that is how you are, and it is, then just stop the "don't rat on people" spiel and be honest because you don't actually believe it at all and when you say it you are lying. What you should be saying if anything is "don't rat on people you you know or like, but rat on anyone else you want to". It doesn't somehow make your position any more consistent or good or right, but at least you will be being honest about it.
 
Bernie is very vocal about how much he appreciates all the knowledge and expertise black boar has provided. Very vocal! He also is very vocal about explaining the sensitive nature of their working relationship!

To come on here and attack the viability of that relationship in the manner we see above is in "very poor taste". I am certain the new buyer for the cue paid 1200 and Bernie gave that money to the OP or his friend! The $900 difference was consistent with the normal deposits placed! Losing the deposit and getting the refund is not uncommon for "custom" designs which is all he does. He builds what the buyer requests!

Just my 2 cents on the topic!

KD

What the heck are you talking about? I can't figure out what you are trying to say and your post just isn't making any sense. Can you try to explain it again?

To address the only part that made any sense and that I could understand, you only get to keep deposits when it was the buyers fault that the deal couldn't be honored. When it is the seller's fault, like not being able to deliver when promised, then he owes a full refund since he the seller is the one who broke the deal.
 
What the heck are you talking about? I can't figure out what you are trying to say and your post just isn't making any sense. Can you try to explain it again?

To address the only part that made any sense and that I could understand, you only get to keep deposits when it was the buyers fault that the deal couldn't be honored. When it is the seller's fault, like not being able to deliver when promised, then he owes a full refund since he the seller is the one who broke the deal.

My point and post says that Bernie "Appreciates" his mentor and the knowledge!
My point and post says that Bernie's "Relationship with Black Boar is fragile" and he is vocal with potential customers to avoid any "Misunderstandings" or threats to his agreement and work relationship. I know this because he told me when I expressed interest in his cues. So, based on my experience he is "Not" behaving fraudulently based on my experience.

According to the OP, the buyer changed his/her mind??? Yes, he was late but I am sure the cue was done and sold to get the $1200. If that was the case? Then a full refund would not be appropriate? Either take the cue or he sells it and gives you the funds. One or the other.

But, to just say being late is grounds for a "Full" refund is not my understanding of cue business etiquette! Either refund or produce the item is etiquette as I know it??? Not buyer choice if one day, second or minute late!!!

KD
 
Funny!!!

Another hit and run! Original Poster puts up this thread and "Never" responds! Just let it linger like the trash around the back of the house!

KD
 
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