They do this in 3c tournaments as well. Like at Carom Cafe in NY
Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Hehe
So you don't believe in the myth of two kind of strokes. It's all about speed and the point of hitting the CB.
This should be easy to test with few experiment. Speed is easiest (you can take my video and measure the time between the sound of hitting the CB and the sound of CB hitting OB). Since position of micro, CB, OB is same every time, this one shoud get precise measurements.
I could unconsciously hit the CB higher than expected but this should be easy to measure with chalk marks.
I think you would lose both challenges (I can hit CB higher and slower and still get more draw with my second kind of stroke).
But yes, this was my impression that you only take first kind of stroke into consideration for your measurements (even though you teached yourself the second kind for extreme draws since you wouldn't be able to have the extreme draw on video otherwise).
For good examples of how the "type" of "quality" of stroke don't really matter, see the info, video, and links here:
But I hope you decide to test it out. Please share what you find if you do.
Hmm.... this thread is developing in an interesting way.
So, the claims that tip doesn't matter when it comes to spin have been debunked. Rather than soft tips being the better spin tips, it's hard tips on account of the greater speed they impart on the CB. Interesting. Tip hardness does matter then.
It was also said that tip contact time has a positive effect for masse shots. Here, contact time matters but allegedly not on other shots? Not sure that makes sense. It seems more reasonable that this is a indicator for more contact time = more spin.
Without any evidence or objective robotic testing, my guess is that:
Softer tip = more contact time which is better for imparting spin on the CB; however, this is undermined to some degree by a decrease in tip efficiency and thus lower CB speed given the same stroke.
Harder tip = less contact time which is worse for imparting spin on the CB; however, this is offset to some degree by a increase in CB speed due to higher tip efficiency given the same stroke.
Without a pool robot, these things will be inconclusive to test to see which combination is better.
Just a hunch, but I'm thinking that's the reality once it can all be tested with precision and repeatability.
So, the claims that tip doesn't matter when it comes to spin have been debunked. Rather than soft tips being the better spin tips, it's hard tips on account of the greater speed they impart on the CB. Interesting. Tip hardness does matter then.
It was also said that tip contact time has a positive effect for masse shots. Here, contact time matters but allegedly not on other shots? Not sure that makes sense. It seems more reasonable that this is a indicator for more contact time = more spin.
Without any evidence or objective robotic testing, my guess is that:
Softer tip = more contact time which is better for imparting spin on the CB; however, this is undermined to some degree by a decrease in tip efficiency and thus lower CB speed given the same stroke.
Harder tip = less contact time which is worse for imparting spin on the CB; however, this is offset to some degree by a increase in CB speed due to higher tip efficiency given the same stroke.
Without a pool robot, these things will be inconclusive to test to see which combination is better.
Just a hunch, but I'm thinking that's the reality once it can all be tested with precision and repeatability.
Good points. I just want to add one thing: You don't need to build a robot to conduct systematic tests if you really want to...a piece of string will work. Let gravity do the work.
Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion
FYI, I just posted a new video that busts many common myths concerning what happens when a cue tip hits a cue ball. Everything is supported by super-slow-motion high-speed-camera footage. Check it out: Contents: 0:00 - Intro 0:10 - Myth 1 – Tip Contact Time 0:48 - Myth 2 – Control...
forums.azbilliards.com
kanzzo
hobby player
Thought I did show it on my last video already. Better player can get more draw with less speed. There is video from Corey on YouTube showing the drill for practicing this. Speed measurement can be performed from my video measuring the time between hitting the CB and time when CB hits OB.
If s.o. wants to take the time to measure these time differences i could provide additional camera angle as to where I hit the ball.
Very cool. thnx
Yes, in my experience, things can be too slippery — you go to some tournaments and they got new cloth and balls that still have jet lag from Belgium and it’s tough to get ahold of them.
Lou Figueroa
Corey's drill is pretty good. Requires a properly shaped tip and plenty of offset. Can be done with soft/hard tips too.
Great if you want to run 714 points in 14.1 though
for real though hats off to Shaw for that. regardless of equipment. My bad for getting off-topic here.
No doubt. OWT's just won't die. Hard tip will give you more(again, a little bit) spin 'over distance' because the cb gets there quicker and has more spin left to use. Go from a soft to a hard tip and this is pretty obvious.
Excellent post. That's my take on the whole tip hardness vs spin discussion. And no one has done any tests or experiments to disprove any of it.
What Dr. Dave did was show proof that different tips produce equal spin results with equal cb speeds. That's different than saying equal cue strokes (applied effort) with different tips produce equal spin results. And to me that's what really matters. The useful question is, do I get more (or less) spin on the cb with a hard tip or soft tip when the same stroke effort/speed is applied?
I called my brother about this since he's the golfer in our family. A few years back he was playing scratch. He said the fastest point of the golf swing is when it "bottoms out at impact". Not before and not after. Impact with the ball itself causes a slowdown in swing speed because the ball has weight and mass. Not quite like a straight punch to someone's face, but enough.
Googling it corroborated what he said: https://golf-info-guide.com/golf-ti...test part of your,distance on your golf shots.
Where do you think the fastest part of the tip would be on a monster break shot? Hopefully it would be AT impact. Not before and not after again. The CB also has weight and mass to slow it down.
The key is the tip speed has to be exactly the same at CB contact. As well as contact point. How that gets done mechanically doesn't matter as long as it is measurable to a very fine degree and repeatable.
Some home made cue robots I seen through the years on the web used springs, some used gravity. I would think gravity with a counter weight or pulley system for leverage (like how a trebuchet works) would be the most consistent if it's built well to eliminate slop generating a nice smooth stroke. It also seems that such a system would be adjustable in a better way for more stroke speeds while maintaining consistency. Springs will be temperature sensitive and they do wear giving different results over the lifespan. I don't think they would be as good. Also, changing stroke speed will depend on swapping springs OR stretching/compressing the spring more (depending on design).
I'm not bashing DrDave's human testing. I also believe human testing can be quite informative especially when you look at the results on the table and whether they are reasonably consistent. I've done my own for deflection, taking hundreds of shots and carefully observing to get a consensus. Human testing is good enough to get a "ball park" or feel for a conclusion. For example, you can literally see the difference between say the 314 and a Z shaft series shaft by doing simple testing on a table with your own arm. But when it comes to finer differences between more similar shafts, it requires a machine to get those finer results. I believe the same is true for tips.
Tip testing is always going to have a little variance except for the phenolics, because a soft tip like an elkmaster hits different the first 20-30'ish hits than it does afterward. The ultra-spongy brand new airy feel of that lasts a couple of racks, then it compresses a bit. You can feel the difference. This is why several cue smiths I've used would firmly tap the shaft with the new tip on a hard surface about 100 or so times and then put it back on the lathe for a trim. You can actually get some very minor mushroom this quickly after install. This is true even of some hard tips.
That's the whole reason I believe soft-tip = more spin. Because I've experience that before it even crossed my mind that tip hardness was a debate in this matter. It was a discovery for me. I was at a pool room who had a tip lathe, and had a an elk master put on a SP that I had as a spare. I wanted the cheapest fix. Without any pre-compression or anything. Just a brand new tip never hit and a very very soft one at that. BTW, don't judge the elkmasters on house cues, they have been hit a lot and feel more like a lepro level medium. When they are brand new the first hits are very very soft. Anyway, I took a couple of hits and noticed how extremely spongy it was and the third shot I had I had to hit a firm follow shot. What happened kinda surprised me as it looked like a trick shot there was much more spin on there than I anticipated. The cue ball hugged the rail because of the greater amount of unwanted follow on there.
It was that day and that moment that made me wonder what the difference was. Was it the cue? No, used it before with a lepro. Was it me that day? No. Switched to my regular playing cue and went back and forth and noticed it was EASIER to get more spin with the same stroke, and with a harder stroke, I could get more overall spin. The only thing that really changed was that tip install.
Of course, on rec.sport.billiard, here and elsewhere there's people who try to apply science and deny this is what is actually taking place. More power to them. I'm all for it. I support their efforts, but will question hasty conclusions. My commitment to the soft tip spin issue was based on my experiences and I admit that's subjective and I can't prove it to anyone, but I know what I know and I know what I felt and what I saw. I suspect other people experienced the same which is why they are passionate about this. My ignorance of the issue at the time of discovery also meant there was no "placebo effect" ...There was no "I got a new tip, watch this power draw now" in my mind, nor enthusiasm.
a little dirt in fast 3c cloth won't effect shots much. i've seen david matlock(very good 3c btw) run a lot of 6'-7's on a dirty(kinda old Simonis 300 on it) heated Gabriel table in Olathe. Table would have to be filthy to alter it much.
Exactly. In the one video it is demonstrated that the harder tips make the CB go longer on that lag shot which was an effort to use the same stroke speed to control that variable as much as possible. This means more speed for harder tip. Thus, when doing the spin test, the CB should be measured to go that same extra distance it did on the straight on speed test to try to control for the same stroke speed when observing spin effects. I have to rewatch the videos to see if that happened or not. DrDave is pretty good at thinking these things out.
My experience is similar when it comes to soft tips.
Over the years I have tried many, many tips and a soft tip can change dramatically over the course of its life at the end of an often used pool cue. IOWs, a Kamui black SS is not going to play the same when it is not compressed and newly installed, as it will after weeks of play. I suppose there’s also the issue of how many layers of tip you’re leaving on.
Lou Figueroa
I believe he was just saying that a more efficient hit (harder tip) transfers a little more of the cue's energy to the cb, when compared to using the same stroke speed but with a softer tip. So, if a harder tip produces a little more cb speed, then shouldn't it produce a little more spin?
The "little more" is probably so tiny that it's not noticeable for most players. But when a player says they can feel or see the difference, I don't believe it's total bs. There is some valid reasoning in why they can feel or see the difference.