Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

1pRoscoe

1pRoscoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've spoken to many cuemakers over the years and something that I've been told a few times by various cuemakers has been on my mind and I wanted to get a general consensus here....

I can count 3 different cuemakers that have told me they make forearms for other cuemakers. They will not tell me who they do this for and I can't even begin to guess in any account who they may be. They do this either because the purchasing cuemaker either doesn't have the knowledge or equipment necessary to make a spliced point forearm.

So with the 3 that have told me they do this, I'm sure there are many others..... but come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of a custom cuemaker say, "I've made this nice 4pt cue using [xyz cuemaker's] forearm." (the clear exception are Davis and Prather - and sometimes the latter isn't disclosed)

If you're contacting a cuemaker to purchase a cue from them and you specify that you want a pointed cue or an inlaid buttsleeve, would you find it to be deceptive if they didn't build the entire cue? I'm sure there are tons of secrets among cuemakers but this is one that I honestly think is deceptive to the customer.

Would you be pissed after the fact and want to return the cue? Any other thoughts?

I would love to hear cuemaker's thoughts on this topic as well...
 
I don't think it's deceptive. Most manufacturing businesses do not make every single component that goes into their finished product. Why should cue makers be any different? It's their name on the product, and their reputation that's on the line. They are the ones who are ultimately responsible for providing what the customers order. As long as the customer is assured of receiving a quality product and good customer service at a fair price, nothing else should really matter.

Roger
 
i agree with roger on this, but at the same time i'd be pissed if i paid a few thousand to a top cue maker and they used a prather blank...not that there is anything wrong with them...just top dollar custom work should be that of the cue maker...if it were a spain blank or davis thats another story.
 
Guess I left out something specific.....

What if they represent it as their own when infact it's not?
 
:thumbup2:The last cue I orderded the maker told me that he bought the forearm from xxx. he also said he has made them in the past but that it was more cost effective for him to buy a quality one than make one. I am sure just by talking to him that he would make one if I wanted him to but that the cost was quite a bit higher and the wait on it would also be longer. I think its like using a CNC to do inlays instead of by hand ,not that there is anything wrong with doing them by hand, its just more efficient. I dont have a problem with them using someone elses blank or just not saying who made it. I would have a problem if the bought the blank and told me they made it themselves from scratch or bought some junk and said it was from a quality maker. I have spoke with quite a few makers that are members on AZ and a couple that are not and in my oppion they have all seemed very very honest. If they did not state who made the forearm I'm sure they all would tell you if you asked...:smile:
 
i guess i wouldnt be to bothered if my cue was a playing cue. Hell, like carmakers, parts can be outsourced too, right?


Eric >would want a 100% Szamboti, tho
 
1pRoscoe said:
I've spoken to many cuemakers over the years and something that I've been told a few times by various cuemakers has been on my mind and I wanted to get a general consensus here....

I can count 3 different cuemakers that have told me they make forearms for other cuemakers. They will not tell me who they do this for and I can't even begin to guess in any account who they may be. They do this either because the purchasing cue maker either doesn't have the knowledge or equipment necessary to make a spliced point forearm.
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If it is important to you then you should ask your cue maker if he uses parts from another cue maker.

What if the cue maker has an assistant in his shop that makes some of the cue parts he uses in the cue?
Or perhaps the assistant roughs in the wood or does the menial tasks like tips and ferrules.

I do all of my own inlays and sub components.
(other than bumpers, pins, brass shaft inserts, and some ferrules)
I also use pre-made plastic and fiber rings from Atlas but make the custom rings myself.
There are exceptions when I will use a forearm ordered from Prather but with full knowledge of the buyer.
I can and will make a half splice forearm with veneers but it aint cheap.
Full splice butts are beyond my skills and equipment so I use bar cues and butt blanks from other cue makers.

My opinion is that as long as there is no intended deception there is no foul.
If it is something that is important then ask up front.
 
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1pRoscoe said:
Guess I left out something specific.....

What if they represent it as their own when infact it's not?
Click to expand...

That is a different story and it would be deception. I don't think you will find a top cue maker who would do this.

James
 
if its a quality item it shouldnt matter and honestly its none of the customers buisness. when you but a car you do say to the dealer did u make that seat? did u make the radio, did u make them tires. did u make the glass.

honestly and i might get yelled at (dont much care) but where does the customer get off thinking he has a say or needs knowledge about anything. this is one of the sides of cuemaking i do not like. either order a cue or dont..... there is much more to a forearm them who glued the colors in...

do you think customers asked GB "oh is this a szamboti blank" no they ordered a george balabushka custom pool cue. period
 
dave sutton said:
if its a quality item it shouldnt matter and honestly its none of the customers buisness. when you but a car you do say to the dealer did u make that seat? did u make the radio, did u make them tires. did u make the glass.

honestly and i might get yelled at (dont much care) but where does the customer get off thinking he has a say or needs knowledge about anything. this is one of the sides of cuemaking i do not like. either order a cue or dont..... there is much more to a forearm them who glued the colors in...

do you think customers asked GB "oh is this a szamboti blank" no they ordered a george balabushka custom pool cue. period
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The car is a bad analogy...

And this is the side of cuemaking I really don't understand... I think the customer (the one paying) has every right to know whatever they want about the cue they are ordering... Who's to shell out $500-$1k+ for a cue and expect to get whatever they get without question?

There is only so much research a person can do before selecting a cuemaker. I thoroughly enjoy all of the cues I've ordered and will continue to do so - however - it's come about that some cuemakers are taking credit for things others do.

I'm not saying it's not ok for the cuemaker to use other's materials, but if you're going to make a cue for a customer and you use another person's forearm, I feel the customer has every right to know - and to not say anything is wrong.

Cuemakers > Cue assemblers
 
SCCues said:
That is a different story and it would be deception. I don't think you will find a top cue maker who would do this.

James
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James I wish you were right, however, you are not in this case. Now, I am not going to go any farther with my statement so please don't ask me too. But, I will say if a potential buyer doesn't ask questions before they buy they have nothing to complain about.

Oh and to all buyers, when you buy a cue don't allow hype in the market place effect your decision. Just because a cue maker is popular at this time doesn't always mean that it will be that way, yes some will only get better and some don't deserve the recognition that they have. But, one thing is for certain you get what you pay for, and you must do the necessary research, without good research there are many pitfalls in this business to over come.

Take Care

Have a nice day!!
 
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Looking at it from "both sides of the fence" I can see where this might become a problem.

If a cue maker deliberately deceives the purchaser into thinking all the parts were assembled by his (or her) own hands and they were in fact not, that is clearly deception. Basically, you ask, they tell you they made something but in reality they did not.

If the maker uses parts from outside sources but does not try to deliberately hide or falsely represent those parts, it is not deception. You ask, he says XXX made this; you don't ask, he don't tell. "Trade Secret" might be a good term to use by a maker as well. A maker may not disclose where their blanks are made because they went through the process of selecting a supplier from several and believe the one they have chosen to be the best. As the buyer, you must trust the opinions and selections of your chosen maker. Otherwise, why the hell are you buying a cue from them?:confused:

If the maker in fact makes all the parts themselves (with the exception of the typical purchased parts: pins, inserts, bumper etc.) then , well, there's not much to ***** about. Joel Hercek comes to mind...

On the other hand, someone like myself, who prefers to only use a full splice blank in all cue construction, either has to make them himself, or call upon the people who have perfected the process. So far I have used three blank makers: Myself (I have a lot to learn), Brunswick (Titlist) and John Davis. I make them for me, but if I were to sell them, I would inform the buyer that the blank came from XXX upon purchase.
 
Just got into cuemaking and pretty fired up...initially i was pretty un-educated on most techniques and what not, thought that cue making would be a little more difficult than just buying premade prongs, butt caps etc.
I think the only exception "in the long run" would be Davis or Spain blanks, pins, etc. The other short term exception "to new cuemakers" would be to buy premades for practice and until there river of wood is flowing. I have made a couple cues using schm..blanks and some others. Even though they are extremely good in construction and finish when complete, i'm still somewhat emabarassed to show them to people because i have to be upfront about not being the maker of the entire cue. Think the bottom line is that the guys who continue to outsource the difficult parts will never be anymore than they are. I just hope that one day my stuff is as sought after as some of these guys.

I would feel like i had cheated on my wife if i sold a cue that i didnt build COMPLETELY
 
Good point.

I catch flack from my Fiancé because I did not make the blank in my Titlist cue... She has no idea of the OTHER work that has to be done to make a 'good' cue...

But I don't make cues to please other people. I make them to please me, and if someone else likes what I create, that's just fine with me!:)
 
manwon said:
Oh and to all buyers, when you buy a cue don't allow hype in the market place effect your decision. Just because a cue maker is popular at this time doesn't always mean that it will be that way, yes some will only get better and some don't deserve the recognition that they have. But, one thing is for certain you get what you pay for, and you must do the necessary research, without good research there are many pitfalls in this business to over come.

QUOTE]


This is so true. The scary part is people can make a cuemaker sound so popular that the orders will be flowing when in fact it is just people from the hometown of the cuemaker just as an example hyping them up, or even dealers that rep them. Research is definitely key. I almost think it is to the point that I would want to play with a cue of his/hers first before I order one. I have ordered cues in the past that I feel were subpar, but only have myself to blame I guess...
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I say: ALWAYS play before you pay...

In the case of a one-off just for you, you should have played with at least three of that makers examples before committing.

Just my advice!
 
Cue Guru said:
I say: ALWAYS play before you pay...

In the case of a one-off just for you, you should have played with at least three of that makers examples before committing.

Just my advice!
Click to expand...

So the question begs, as a potential buyer, is it my responsibility to pay for the the shipping of the cue for me to test as a potential customer, or do I need to pay for shipping one way or even both ways? What is standard? I agree and someday I will learn, hopefully soon.
 
It wouldn't matter to me as long as the forearm is well made. George Balabushka didn't make his own forearms and I don't hold it against him.
 
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