Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

Spimp13 said:
So the question begs, as a potential buyer, is it my responsibility to pay for the the shipping of the cue for me to test as a potential customer, or do I need to pay for shipping one way or even both ways? What is standard? I agree and someday I will learn, hopefully soon.
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It may very well be.

Don't you owe it to yourself to know you are getting "THE" cue? What is average custom cue price these days? $1,000.00? More? Shipping both ways will be... $50.00 or so? For an inexpensive cue, it doesn't make sense. You have to gamble a bit.

But, if I'm buying an 'expensive' (and that term is relative) cue, generally the sellers offer a return privilege so I can try it out for a few hours before I commit to keeping it. Sometimes this means center ball only (no chalk!) but you can pretty quickly tell a 'dud' from a 'player' in an hour or so... Sometimes that first hit tells you all you need to know.
 
dave sutton said:
if its a quality item it shouldnt matter and honestly its none of the customers buisness. when you but a car you do say to the dealer did u make that seat? did u make the radio, did u make them tires. did u make the glass.

honestly and i might get yelled at (dont much care) but where does the customer get off thinking he has a say or needs knowledge about anything. this is one of the sides of cuemaking i do not like. either order a cue or dont..... there is much more to a forearm them who glued the colors in...

do you think customers asked GB "oh is this a szamboti blank" no they ordered a george balabushka custom pool cue. period
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Back in the day I ordered 3 Bushkas and he had the nerve to use Gus forearms on them, I got so pissed at the bait and switch move Geroge pulled on me, I smashed them up and started a fire with them, man that Courtland wrap burns up fast. Guess I showed them whos the smart one.:cool:

Get my point? It really dosent matter, Unless you ask the cue maker your paying and he isnt truthful, thats not cool. I awalys ask unless its a cheap cue or I know the cue maker is more of a assembler than a builder. If a cue maker claims to make something he didnt make(or was made in his shop) even something small like rings etc. its not cool.
 
The only problem I can remotely see is if the maker is known for his forearms or whatever component and this is why the customer decides on that maker. But gee wiz are you going to hang it over the mantel or play with it. If it's a mantel piece then you gotta ask questions before the investment. If it a player then play.
 
1pRoscoe said:
I've spoken to many cuemakers over the years and something that I've been told a few times by various cuemakers has been on my mind and I wanted to get a general consensus here....

I can count 3 different cuemakers that have told me they make forearms for other cuemakers. They will not tell me who they do this for and I can't even begin to guess in any account who they may be. They do this either because the purchasing cuemaker either doesn't have the knowledge or equipment necessary to make a spliced point forearm.

So with the 3 that have told me they do this, I'm sure there are many others..... but come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of a custom cuemaker say, "I've made this nice 4pt cue using [xyz cuemaker's] forearm." (the clear exception are Davis and Prather - and sometimes the latter isn't disclosed)

If you're contacting a cuemaker to purchase a cue from them and you specify that you want a pointed cue or an inlaid buttsleeve, would you find it to be deceptive if they didn't build the entire cue? I'm sure there are tons of secrets among cuemakers but this is one that I honestly think is deceptive to the customer.

Would you be pissed after the fact and want to return the cue? Any other thoughts?

I would love to hear cuemaker's thoughts on this topic as well...
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George Balabushka didn't make his forearms and neither did I. If someone asked, I told them. If they didn't, I didn't.
 
I think alot of people would be surprised if they knew every detail of many 'popular' cue makers cues.

I'm not saying there is anything inherently bad going on I'm just just saying not everything is always as it seems regardless of what many think..... or wouldn't think to think. :)
 
So If I want to be a cue maker I need to raise my own cows/pigs for tips. Plant my own trees( of course I will have to invent a time machine to get some two hundred year old maple) have a lumber yard to cut the lumber. Kiln to dry the lumber. Mine my own ore for pins and rings. Heaven help me if I hire someone to work for me and don't spend every waking moment building a cue for a guy who sells stuff made buy someone else.

Or should a customer take the time to research the person who he is giving his money to. If you are buying a cue spend some time and get to know the maker. If that is to much trouble use a house cue.

Sorry for the rant but this was beat to death here afew months back.

Larry
 
What do you think about a cue maker building cues who has his forearms made oversea's lets say Japan or China. Let's say that everything comes out at some point and the public knows the entire story is completely true. Now lets say this guy was getting a minimum of $1800 for a plain Jane cue. What do you think would happen to the value of the cues purchased that are sitting in collections, would they lose their value or do you think it would not matter at all where the forearms were made?
 
You raise an interesting point, but there is so much more to building a cue than making the forearm, I think that aspect does not detract from the final product.

We buy house cue conversions, titleist conversions, pay huge sums for plain janes with no inlays or points... why would a pre-made forearm be treated as an ethical violation?

Many old Palmers have Szamboti forearms. Many Balabushkas have Szamboti forearms. We know Burton Spain made a carreer out of building forearms...but none of these forearms is worth a damn if the cue builder who uses them doesn't possess great skill.

If you give me a V twin in a crate, I still need tramendous talent to make a smooth riding motorcycle.

Taper, materials, balance, durability, finish...oh there is so much to know beyond building a forearm. You can't fake a good cue in my opinion.
 
I have a Bob Weir box cue. It was made, I am told, by Adam of Japan.
I own several Palmers also made by Adam of Japan. Lastly, I have several Adam cues.

Each maker's product has distinct similarities but each plays very different and is balanced differently.

My point is that with 5 cues all presumably made by Adam of Japan, my Wier plays hands down the best. It is balanced differently, uses different ferrule material and has a different shaft taper. I believe Mr. Weir is responsible for tuning or designing the subtle differences that make his cue play better for me. And to me, that makes all the difference.
 
hey

SCCues said:
That is a different story and it would be deception. I don't think you will find a top cue maker who would do this.

James
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James, I think you could.....unfortunately.

The issue is really just plain honesty or deception. If you are buying a so called custom made cue for any amount of money and you dont ask, I dont think the cuemaker is obligated to tell you anything.

But if you do ask, every question should be answered HONESTLY. At which point you can make your decision to buy or not to, based on all the information.

But to set out on a course to purposly decieve people, even if they ask.....is deceptive and criminal in my mind.
 
Drawman623 said:
You raise an interesting point, but there is so much more to building a cue than making the forearm, I think that aspect does not detract from the final product.

We buy house cue conversions, titleist conversions, pay huge sums for plain janes with no inlays or points... why would a pre-made forearm be treated as an ethical violation?

Many old Palmers have Szamboti forearms. Many Balabushkas have Szamboti forearms. We know Burton Spain made a carreer out of building forearms...but none of these forearms is worth a damn if the cue builder who uses them doesn't possess great skill.

If you give me a V twin in a crate, I still need tramendous talent to make a smooth riding motorcycle.

Taper, materials, balance, durability, finish...oh there is so much to know beyond building a forearm. You can't fake a good cue in my opinion.
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You raise an interesting point, but there is so much more to building a cue than making the forearm, I think that aspect does not detract from the final product.

Than why haven't the early Adam cues ever become collectible? There designs were revolutionary, the inlays were well done, and the cues were basically hand made. The reason I can see that they have not taken off in value is because collector interest doesn't extend to cues made overseas. Now there may be another reason that I have not thought of, however, I am certainly open to anyones thoughts on the subject.

Many old Palmers have Szamboti forearms. Many Balabushkas have Szamboti forearms. We know Burton Spain made a carreer out of building forearms...but none of these forearms is worth a damn if the cue builder who uses them doesn't possess great skill.

I agree that during the 1960's and 1970's many cue makers were making cues with parts supplied by other cue makers. During this time the equipment needed to make cues was not really available, along with other cue making supplies, so it was an acceptable practice then, but times change. In addition the gentleman we are talking about above have all become famous, along with all the forearms that were made by famous them. Today with all the information, supplies and equipment available the high end collector in most cases does care and many people buying cues do not give these details enough attention, until they find out the truth.

No offense but every time this type of discussion is started everyone brings up Balabushka, Palmer, and sometimes Paradise, I take it all in stride because like I said before we all get what we pay for and research is the key.

Take Care
 
1pRoscoe said:
I've spoken to many cuemakers over the years and something that I've been told a few times by various cuemakers has been on my mind and I wanted to get a general consensus here....

I can count 3 different cuemakers that have told me they make forearms for other cuemakers. They will not tell me who they do this for and I can't even begin to guess in any account who they may be. They do this either because the purchasing cuemaker either doesn't have the knowledge or equipment necessary to make a spliced point forearm.

So with the 3 that have told me they do this, I'm sure there are many others..... but come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of a custom cuemaker say, "I've made this nice 4pt cue using [xyz cuemaker's] forearm." (the clear exception are Davis and Prather - and sometimes the latter isn't disclosed)

If you're contacting a cuemaker to purchase a cue from them and you specify that you want a pointed cue or an inlaid buttsleeve, would you find it to be deceptive if they didn't build the entire cue? I'm sure there are tons of secrets among cuemakers but this is one that I honestly think is deceptive to the customer.

Would you be pissed after the fact and want to return the cue? Any other thoughts?

I would love to hear cuemaker's thoughts on this topic as well...
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You have to qualify building the entire cue. Very few cuebuilders make their own jointpins and associated hardware,and for a good reason, price.I am sure alot could make all of the components, but time is money and a specialised company can make joint pins and threaded inserts far cheaper than a one off. I myself prefer to make most of my own hardware for my cues as there is no comercial joints that fit my cues,I do use comercial bumpers , as that is what most of my customers prefer.I don't make wooden handles for my cues anyway, but if a customer wanted a wooden handle, I would have to get a blank from a reputable company and have it made for them.All my handles are a unique 1 of 1 and can not be reproduced.
I see no problem using handle or shaft blanks from reputable cuebuilders to make a custom cue. As it will still have some individualality about it.Otherwise it will just be another cue from a shop somewhere
However, using someone elses components and claiming them to be your own is not honest.
 
conetip said:
You have to qualify building the entire cue. Very few cuebuilders make their own jointpins and associated hardware,and for a good reason, price.I am sure alot could make all of the components, but time is money and a specialised company can make joint pins and threaded inserts far cheaper than a one off. I myself prefer to make most of my own hardware for my cues as there is no comercial joints that fit my cues,I do use comercial bumpers , as that is what most of my customers prefer.I don't make wooden handles for my cues anyway, but if a customer wanted a wooden handle, I would have to get a blank from a reputable company and have it made for them.All my handles are a unique 1 of 1 and can not be reproduced.
I see no problem using handle or shaft blanks from reputable cuebuilders to make a custom cue. As it will still have some individualality about it.Otherwise it will just be another cue from a shop somewhere
However, using someone elses components and claiming them to be your own is not honest.
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very well said. And that is what it comes down to everytime this subject comes up..........HONESTY
 
conetip said:
You have to qualify building the entire cue.
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No I don't. Seriously, people who are comparing to "yesteryear" is a bit naive, don't you think? Are any of those guys still alive? No.

Common practice - cuemakers build everything on their own except for tips, screws (in most cases) and bumpers. Anything else and you shouldn't label yourself a cuemaker. You are an assembler..

conetip said:
However, using someone elses components and claiming them to be your own is not honest.
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This is the point of the entire thread....

What brought it up is there are a few recent threads a cuemaker has posted of his "work"... his pointwork is being complimented only he didn't make them. A bit confusing, no?

These cues will then inturn probably prompt others to order from this cuemaker. Who's to say the buyers weren't duped by his lack of being forthcoming?
 
Imo its deception , if I order from a paticular maker,, I want that maker to build my cue..

I wouldnt want that maker to have the forearm ordered from else where , If there putting there name on it, they better of built it ..

Especially seeing how expensive the most of these custom makers are to begin with , they shouldnt rip you off, when the prices most of them want for a piece of wood is insane off top..
 
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I think the point of this thread is the fact that misrepresentation is out of line. I totally agree that you should be truthful about your product, but, when it comes to certain things, there are many people who could care less. I myself just made three cues. Two of them were made from full splice blanks. I bought the pins, collars, phenolic, so I suppose that just makes me an assembler, but I would rather be called a cue maker. The fact that I just got started makes me inexperienced, and I currently don't have the setup to do full splice blanks, or even half splices for that matter. If someone wants to know, I will be as honest as I can to those that have the enough knowledge to know the difference, and will not waste too much of my time educating someone who doesn't.

What pisses me off, is someone who doesn't make cues to sit there and dictate what a cue maker is, or how a cue maker should work in his shop. If you want to start your own shop and show us how it's done, be my guest, but if you ain't got no shop, shut the f--- up.

If I order a blank from Schmelke, pins, bumpers, bolts and phenolic from Atlas, ferrules from Warther, and tips from prather, I ain't gonna go into all that if I sell that cue. If I post that cue up for sale, I'm gonna say I made it and here's the specs and price. If you think that's misrepresentation, I think you need to start your own shop and find out for yourself what I'm talking about. It ain't all as easy as non-cue makers might think. There is a great deal more to it than gluin and screwin.

On the other hand, If I bought a half-splice blank from Prather or Davis or anyone else for that matter and made a cue, if someone asked me, and I said I made it myself, that ain't right. It is important for me to be as honest as I can when asked . It also depends on who I'm talking to as to how much I will explain. If I made a cue from a Prather blank, I would present that cue as something I made, unless someone asked. Some people don't even know what a blank is. To most people, especially around here, they could care less who made the blank as long as it plays good and they trust me to make a good cue, that's what matters.
 
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SK Custom Cues said:
I think the point of this thread is the fact that misrepresentation is out of line. I totally agree that you should be truthful about your product, but, when it comes to certain things, there are many people who could care less. I myself just made three cues. Two of them were made from full splice blanks. I bought the pins, collars, phenolic, so I suppose that just makes me an assembler, but I would rather be called a cue maker. The fact that I just got started makes me inexperienced, and I currently don't have the setup to do full splice blanks, or even half splices for that matter. If someone wants to know, I will be as honest as I can to those that have the enough knowledge to know the difference, and will not waste too much of my time educating someone who doesn't.

What pisses me off, is someone who doesn't make cues to sit there and dictate what a cue maker is, or how a cue maker should work in his shop. If you want to start your own shop and show us how it's done, be my guest, but if you ain't got no shop, shut the f--- up.
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Tap Tap Tap A Roo
 
I am going to agree with Roscoe on this.. this information should be available with the cue at all times. If a cuemaker posts his work and he didn't make the points and he says he did, you have to wonder what else this person might be duping you on.

I am not saying using other points is a bad practice, as long as you put that info out there. A lot of cuemakers as mentioned, back in the day, have done this plenty. However there weren't 800 cuemakers vying for a piece of the pie and if you want a piece you better be upfront. I am not talking about rumors, I am talking about hard evidence.

In the days of Bushka, had he said Burton Spain made his blanks, people would have been like "Who"? They didn't have the internet and they sure didn't have the competition that is out there today.

I do see the comparison that the pointed blank is not much more a component than a piece of cocobolo. That this is just a part of a whole item, and should be regarded as such. I don't necessarily agree with that line of thinking, however I do understand it. I buy a computer from Dell and they didn't make the hard drive or motherboard, but that information is on the units and easy to find, but it still says Dell.

JV
 
why is the car analogy a bad one? would nike be a better one. when you buy a nike driver for 400$ do you ask did you make this head, shaft or grip... no.

this buisness just about the only one in the world where the customer thinks he has the right to know everything. i dont agree with this. before they call it just a "trade secret"
anyone that has done any buisness with me knows i am about as hands on as possible. i want everyone to be happy. however if you know nothing about cuemaking what purpose do you gain from this knowledge? its its quality it shouldnt matter. the cue has my taper and my specs. do you ask where i bought the wood or metal rings joints screws. i dont make my own phenolic or delrin but i machine it. is this ok?

the problem now is customers have access it suppliers ect today so they have much more knowledge then before. does this give them the right to know "everything" no. i could be wrong but... if i am show me where its written.

i suppose this is why certin makers dont talk to people. not bc they are being deceptive but the customers sometimes are into things they dont need to be

so... finally tell me this. you spend 9500$ on a gus over say 6500$ on a barry. u want the gus bc its a gus... its the dad... hes the master. do you think gus told the world that barry made the forearms in alot of gus's cues. does this change your mond about the gus?

the answer is no

so heres my breakdown

wood bell forrest
joint atlas
pin atlas
phenolic atlas
rings prather/atlas
veneers dustin cookson
wrap atlas
leather tiger brianna hightower
tips atlas
ferrule atlas
delrin atlas
 
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