One of the best ways to decide how good a CM is does he make his own stainless steel joint.If he can do that properly you don't have to worry about the rest of the cue.
Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?
- Thread starter 1pRoscoe
- Start date
seems like cue making used to be somewhat of an art form and may still be to most....seems like half the people on here just can't wait till someone invents a machine we can just dump our garbage in and out comes a $2k cue.
so in the end...who cares. The guys who continue to do this will never really be remembered anyway.
so in the end...who cares. The guys who continue to do this will never really be remembered anyway.
I have an example for you. There is a cue maker that buys Prather blanks and assembles the cue, adding the necessary hardware. He preps it and then sends it to me for finish work and polishing. It will then go back to him for the linen wrap. If he was honest about it, do you buy the cue, given that it appeals to you and plays decent? Do you respect this cue maker as a "cue maker?" Would you rather not know?
This is not a random example I thought up. I am in the process of doing finish work on this very cue and it happens more than you think.
This is not a random example I thought up. I am in the process of doing finish work on this very cue and it happens more than you think.
Good question Ryan....
For a $3-$500 cue, I could care less....I want quality work and for it to play well...that's it, no biggie....
For a $2500 cue, I personally think it makes a difference....IMHO, with that much money, I am paying an individual attention to detail and craftsmanship.....I would think the orderer would definitely want to know, I would....
My opinion: Using a joint pin, ring, tip, weight bolt, or Irish Linen made by someone else is okay, because it's not a major part of the overall cue construction and design. I believe that if you don't construct and design a major piece of the work, then you should give credit to the one who did, because you are only an assembly worker, if you just assemble major parts constructed by others. You are NOT a custom cuemaker, by my definition. If I was buying a cue, that's one thing I'd expect from a cuemaker. Anything less and I'd be returning it for a refund.
If I buy a pair of Nike shoes, I don't want to buy a pair of Sand & Sable shoes with a Nike logo on them. To me, that is forgery or infringement, unless it is openly acknowledged and approved by both parties.
A custom cuemaker should cut the wood, turn the wood down, cut out the inlay pockets, glue all the parts together, apply the finish, etc.. Maybe he can hire out some work, such as the finish, or a specific wrap, but the main design and construction of the cue should be done by the cuemaker.
That's just my opinion, but the forearm is more than 1/3 of the cue butt and if you did not create it, then you should give credit to whoever did that work. Finely detailed and well-aligned work takes talent. Either you have it, or you don't. Credit for that kind of work should go only to the person who constructed it.
At the same time, once the parts are bought by someone, they own them and can do what they wish with them. They should not take credit for creating the artwork or designs, but only as an assembler of piece work that was designed by someone else.
Maybe the fine line between maker and assembler is becoming more fuzzy. I sure hope not.
If I buy a pair of Nike shoes, I don't want to buy a pair of Sand & Sable shoes with a Nike logo on them. To me, that is forgery or infringement, unless it is openly acknowledged and approved by both parties.
A custom cuemaker should cut the wood, turn the wood down, cut out the inlay pockets, glue all the parts together, apply the finish, etc.. Maybe he can hire out some work, such as the finish, or a specific wrap, but the main design and construction of the cue should be done by the cuemaker.
That's just my opinion, but the forearm is more than 1/3 of the cue butt and if you did not create it, then you should give credit to whoever did that work. Finely detailed and well-aligned work takes talent. Either you have it, or you don't. Credit for that kind of work should go only to the person who constructed it.
At the same time, once the parts are bought by someone, they own them and can do what they wish with them. They should not take credit for creating the artwork or designs, but only as an assembler of piece work that was designed by someone else.
Maybe the fine line between maker and assembler is becoming more fuzzy. I sure hope not.
I thought of a new analogy: The custom motorcycle maker.
We have all seen the bike "assemblers" as Orange County on TV. They buy a frame and motor and alter the tins (sometimes use an off-the-shelf tank too) yet they are regarded as custom motorcycle makers. They farm out the paint work too.
The guys who make their own frames, build up their own motors, scour the scrap yards for just the right piece, are also custom motorcycle makers. BUT, who do you give your money to?
Having a good name (like OCC) can command a high price (and does); however I appreciate and prefer the work of others who do more themselves.
There is no disputing the quality of the work from either shop- the parts/sub-assemblies that OCC specifies are the best money can buy. The problem comes along when you want the best that a man can make.
This, i feel, is a better analogy to the custom cue industry...
We have all seen the bike "assemblers" as Orange County on TV. They buy a frame and motor and alter the tins (sometimes use an off-the-shelf tank too) yet they are regarded as custom motorcycle makers. They farm out the paint work too.
The guys who make their own frames, build up their own motors, scour the scrap yards for just the right piece, are also custom motorcycle makers. BUT, who do you give your money to?
Having a good name (like OCC) can command a high price (and does); however I appreciate and prefer the work of others who do more themselves.
There is no disputing the quality of the work from either shop- the parts/sub-assemblies that OCC specifies are the best money can buy. The problem comes along when you want the best that a man can make.
This, i feel, is a better analogy to the custom cue industry...
When I spend over 1k for a cue from a top 20 cuemaker I expect it to be all made by him and nobody else (except screws tips, bumpers). I am buying his craftsmanship and not somebody elses.
I would rather buy a cue from the guy who is making the blanks for some of the "Top 20" cuemaker and save 30% or more on a cue since I would be getting viturally the same thing. Keep in mind you are primarily buying the butt of the cue since alot of players are using limited deflection shafts today and storing the original shafts.
Several Azers have talked about some of these great cuemakers using somebody elses forearms or blanks. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO THESE CUEMAKERS ARE!!! I wouldn't want to spend a grand or two only to find out they just assembled the cue.
I would rather buy a cue from the guy who is making the blanks for some of the "Top 20" cuemaker and save 30% or more on a cue since I would be getting viturally the same thing. Keep in mind you are primarily buying the butt of the cue since alot of players are using limited deflection shafts today and storing the original shafts.
Several Azers have talked about some of these great cuemakers using somebody elses forearms or blanks. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO THESE CUEMAKERS ARE!!! I wouldn't want to spend a grand or two only to find out they just assembled the cue.
dave sutton
Banned
we are on the same page. i wasnt factoring in the time as much bc i was compairing the finished products value. thats where im getting value for my time. if i spend $350 and get 1000$ or if i spend 35$ and make 1000$ im still getting the 1000$ per cue...
dave sutton
Banned
i think u misread. i was compairing forearm costs to what you get out of a finished cue. for me its about the same
im not sure what you mean. machine from solid SS rod or get ones from atlas oversized with threads and machine it.
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For the record, I don't care if you make everything or if you buy parts here and there. Just make sure its done correctly. If you're going to do it, do it right. I work on cues every day that are literally falling apart and the customer has no idea. I just reassemble them and keep my mouth shut.
dave sutton
Banned
For the record i dont think there is a cuemaker getting 2500$ that dont make thier own points.
No, but what if they are selling a 4pt cue with basic inlays for $1k. They didn't make the forearm and claim they did.
Is that wrong? Yes. It is. What if they also use pictures of this cue to drum up business and get more orders? Does that make it any worse? I think so...
It's deception and thievery - nothing more..
Not sure what to tell you on that one. I quoted your post directly. I have no intention of making you look one way or the other I simply responded to words you wrote.
dave sutton
Banned
i understand your point. just dont agree. so say you order a cue from me and it turns out pete tascarella made me a blank for your cue. would this change your opinion? you also didnt comment on my post about barry making forearms for gus. was that ok?
this arguement falls into the same one that the shop helpers does. the customer doesnt need to know everything. quality is quality. it shouldnt be a problem.
i also would like to add i used to be on yourside of the fence. now that i know alot more about what i am dealing with i have changed my thoughts. kinda like the patient telling the doctor how to do his job
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read what you posted, dave.
didn't notice "cue guru" had posted a similar question which you answered above.
but you also stated . .
which doesn't take into account the true cost of making it yourself, so you wouldn't "immediately cut your profit in half".
Just to address the Barry thing, it's a Szamboti either way you slice it.
Second - you'd never do that and charge me what you should, so that's a bad example... and if you did, you'd tout that was a Tascarella blank till the cows came home.
I'm quickly learning who I'll never own a cue from... and why I've made good friends with cuemakers I have dealt with. I know what goes into the cues I buy and see what others are getting....
You are the king of horrible analogies, Dave.... Seriously.
If we are to use this type of reasoning, then George Balabushka was just another assembler. I know his name - along with a few others - have already been brought up here as cue makers who built cues from other people's blanks, and these legendary cue makers have been given a pass on this issue due to their legendary status; but I will question, why?
I have built a lot of cues over the past 18 years, and I can tell you that (IMO) assembling and finishing the cue are the most difficult parts of getting the whole thing right. Especially the finish! (Ugh, I don't even want to talk about the finish.) Sure, it takes a lot of skill to set up the machinery to cut inlays and points, but once that machinery is set, it does most of the work for you. And once it's done cutting, you're right back to being an "assembler."
There's just so much more to good cue building than being able to cut even points and sharp inlays. We should be giving more credit to the great "assemblers" out there.
Roger
People tell me how to run my business every day. I am thankful for that because that means some people actually care enough about what I do to take the time to talk about it. Some times they have great ideas and suggestions for improving the product and marketing of it.
As far as taking a shot at me for having no class, I stand by reputation in this forum and this industry.
You did give me a great idea for a blog though.No it has nothing to do with you personally.
I know you are speaking the truth, I have also done finishes for another person building cues. This was an area he had not perfected yet in his craft, just like I do not do leather wraps and I had him do a couple of my cues with a Leather wrap. Now the customer that the cue was going to was told and also knew that I have not started doing Leather wraps, but in my case it was not really important, because the customer didn't really care so long as they got what they wanted.
With that said though, I do believe in complete disclosure and I ensure that my customers know what parts are mine and what parts have been added if any. I have read this entire thread and for me anyway disclosure of what is used to build my cues allows me to sleep well at night, I personally do not want to be remembered for false impressions.
JIMO