curving an object ball....
- Thread starter John Brumback
- Start date
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This sums it up, Dave has some interesting information on his site and I like his analytical approach.
John, on the other hand, can flat out play. I'm a fairly decent banker, when compared to my little slice of the world, then I bought his banking DVD and quickly realized that I'd been doing it wrong for way too long.
Banking is a lot easier when John explains it, best money I ever spent on a pool instructional product.
Chris,
I hope you aren't referring to me with your post. If so, your perspective is terribly wrong.
Bob Jewett, others, and I worked tirelessly for many years to convince many people on the online forums, some instructors, and a vocal and high-profile pro player who refused to acknowledge that spin transfer (and throw) existed and was important in pool. Honestly, I don't remember John ever being involved in the infamous spin transfer and throw debate in the past. Regardless, I have never doubted the existence or importance of spin transfer. Have you ever visited my spin transfer resource page (and my throw resource page) or read the numerous instructional articles Bob and I have written on these topics over many, many years? If you had, you would realize how wrong your statement is (assuming I understand what you are implying).
Concerning post-rebound curve, I have doubted the practical use of it (especially on some equipment), but I certainly never denied its existence (because I have seen it, and I understand the physics that can cause it). I just don't think it requires a mysterious or magical stroke possessed only by world-champion bankers. Also, I still don't think it can be done equally well on all equipment and under all conditions. Have you ever seen the post-rebound-curve example on Freddies' DVDs (the last shot on DVD 1)? I am confident the amount of curve he gets (which is much more than what John demonstrated in his recent online video) is not possible on every table, regardless of the stroke.
Catch you later,
Dave
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All I can judge is whether someone helps me to play. When I read Dr. Dave's stuff, I can usually go to the table and try it, replicate it, and learn from it. I don't care how good someone plays in tournaments, if they say mysterious things on forums that I don't understand or can't replicate on the table, it means nothing to me.
I learn things from everybody...even their mistakes. I then try to replicate what they did or avoid doing what they did.
Some people need scientific instruction to learn things and others can learn simply by watching and receiving simple instructions.
If I stood behind John and watched him bank a shot or two, I think I could replicate it without going to pool school or reading a scientific breakdown of what happened.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to read the textbook or watch the video. It just means some people learn things differently and come to the same result.
I agree with you, but 1) Most of Dave's pool work isn't scientific, it just has simple, direct suggestions, and 2) I can't take private lessons with John B., so I'm just talking about his posts here.
And, I agree with everything you said. I've mentioned that some of Dr. Dave's stuff is spot on and scientific proof i.e. his super slow motion camera work. The thing i was calling Dr. Dave on, goes back before your time on the forums.
Back in the mid 2000's, Dr. Dave burst on the scene with instructional articles and all kinds of pontifications on "how it should be done". Thing is, at the time, he was a rank beginner, a D player, and hardly in any position to teach things from an experts point of view, when he himself, hasn't mastered the basics yet. Now, do you have to be a pro, to teach? Of course not. But, at the other end, if you are a rank beginner, you're in no position to teach anything.
Eric
John this is elvi from Indy. Hope you are doing well down there in the promised land.
I was wondering if you would post another video of the same type of shot with no other balls other than the cue ball and the single object ball. Try to get as big a bend as possible.
I was running this through some video software and the other object ball in the middle broke the auto tracking of the moving object ball. Also if the shot could be videoed from a tripod not a handheld camera then we could know exact how much it is curving from rail to pocket. The higher the camera position the better.
Keep banking and bending it John, we know it makes that pocket play just a little bit bigger and that is huge.
OK I worked on it a little more this is what I found was the path using some video analysis tools. Looks like it has a hook to me.
Here is a link to the video I made of your video showing the hook
https://youtu.be/t0CNLLzEnB8
I was wondering if you would post another video of the same type of shot with no other balls other than the cue ball and the single object ball. Try to get as big a bend as possible.
I was running this through some video software and the other object ball in the middle broke the auto tracking of the moving object ball. Also if the shot could be videoed from a tripod not a handheld camera then we could know exact how much it is curving from rail to pocket. The higher the camera position the better.
Keep banking and bending it John, we know it makes that pocket play just a little bit bigger and that is huge.
OK I worked on it a little more this is what I found was the path using some video analysis tools. Looks like it has a hook to me.
Here is a link to the video I made of your video showing the hook
https://youtu.be/t0CNLLzEnB8
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Just shoot about 10-15% wider (depending on the speed) with about a 1/2 tip of center ball 'holdup' (inside) on it to make the 'powket like a trouff' (play about 20% wider)// to amplify it, do the same with your cue butt raised about 10 degrees using the same speed... try to throw a 'knuckle ball' at the OB -CB effect is a stunning but inside rotating CB that travels slowly down the tangent line, if at all- Enjoy the 'bending OB effect' toward the pocket picking up speed for better effect.
Fun Fun... thanks John for the education
Randy
Fun Fun... thanks John for the education
Randy
Lou not to stir the pot but I think I have the opposite opinion on this as most of the bank players seem to not want clean conditions. They want the balls dirty as they can get more bite transfer more action to the OB and get more action on the OB from the rail. I think the best player play the hooking bank, more now than a couple of years ago as John shared the basics of this concept on his great DVD. I know some champions took that DVD home last year and banked better at the Derby this year.
About real clean equipment, they slide more every where no bite. Spin stays on the balls longer across the bed of the table. Using truly clean balls and very clean cloth the balls hit the rails and slide out dead very noticeable. Bankers never ask to clean the balls that I have seen. They seem offended at times when the balls are cleaned prior to a match.
I think the equipment conditions can be used to manipulate the results get more action. An example I know of was Bugs when he used to play, he used alot of powder he had the table dirty in hurry. I doubt that was unintended.
Would like to hear more on this aspect from elite bankers.
About real clean equipment, they slide more every where no bite. Spin stays on the balls longer across the bed of the table. Using truly clean balls and very clean cloth the balls hit the rails and slide out dead very noticeable. Bankers never ask to clean the balls that I have seen. They seem offended at times when the balls are cleaned prior to a match.
I think the equipment conditions can be used to manipulate the results get more action. An example I know of was Bugs when he used to play, he used alot of powder he had the table dirty in hurry. I doubt that was unintended.
Would like to hear more on this aspect from elite bankers.
Elvi, I defer to your greater expertise in this area.
I am just speaking as a 1pocket and occasional 14.1 player, certainly not as a bank pool player.
However, thinking back on what I've seen, we've all seen balls curve when the cloth is new. If you say dirty is better, I defer. I would also have to wonder about greased balls having an effect because the "the curve," other than on brand new cloth, is not normally achieved. It's just like twisting balls for banks -- works better/easier on some table conditions v others.
Lou Figueroa
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The graph you show looks like x and y versus time. You need to plot x versus y with time as a parameter, not a variable, in order to see a curve. Apart from that, it looks like both |dx/dt| and |dy/dt| are increasing, for example around t=141 (milliseconds?). This would be quite remarkable.
I agree that to get a noticeable and potentially-useful amount of post-rebound curve, the cushions need to really grab the OB (to impart topspin and masse spin as the OB compresses the nose of the cushion both forward and sideways). It might also help for the cloth on table bed to be slick (to limit how much spin is lost when the OB is driven down into the table off the cushion, and to delay the post-rebound curve so it is more noticeable).
Regards,
Dave
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Bob you are right. I did an XY scatterplot with a smooth line in Excel took a screen shot put that shot on the left. The plot on the right is the exact same image except I drew a thin straight line in paint so we could see the curve. Definitely looks like a curve to me
Barring camera distortion and possible bouncing, I agree. Can you extract the direction and magnitude of the acceleration?
I sent you the X,Y and frame data(time) perhaps you can do those calculations.
You should receive it in your jewett sfbilliards mail