curving an object ball....

[John Brumback]

My table is THE TV table that was used in the finals of the 2010 DCC!!! ( the shiny black one) . I can't remember that guys name that I beat 6 in a row to win the banks that year. Efren somethin or other John B.

 

[justadub]

My table is THE TV table that was used in the finals of the 2010 DCC!!! ( the shiny black one) . I can't remember that guys name that I beat 6 in a row to win the banks that year. Efren somethin or other John B.

Boom!

I hope the video session goes well....

 

[dr_dave]

I also think it is clear that John's shot is bouncing (probably several times), but it also clear (despite the limited-resolution and camera angle of the video) that the ball is not bouncing very high. This makes me wonder if the OB actually hits the rail slightly airborne. Alternatively, the cushion nose height on John's table might be lower than on the tables I tested. Regardless, the limited bouncing might be a key to getting a noticeable curve (in addition to having brand new, tight, and slick cloth). Normally, a high-speed bank shot results in the OB hopping quite since the cushion nose is above the center of the ball. The nose pushes down on the ball with large force as the ball compresses the cushion. When the ball gets driven down into the table (with large force), the ball jumps into the air. And during the initial large-force bounce, any topspin and/or masse spin imparted to the ball from the cushion could "take" immediately. And if there is no curving spin remaining on the ball after the first hard bounce off the table, there won't be any curving when the ball lands (maybe bounces again) and heads to the pocket. Having new and slick cloth could also help limit how much curving spin is lost during the first hard bounce.

When I was filming, I actually tried a range of cue elevations, speeds, and tip-contact-point heights to get the OB to hit the cushion at different heights, but I was still not able to see any noticeable curve with any of the shots on the equipment I tested.

Regardless, I still think the cushion-nose height and/or ball height at impact could be important in getting a oticeable and usable (in a practical sense) amount of curve.

My table is THE TV table that was used in the finals of the 2010 DCC!!! ( the shiny black one).

Therefore, I would assume that the cushion nose heights were in-spec and typical. Therefore, based on how little the banked ball is hopping in your video, do you think the ball is slightly airborne when it hits the cushion? And do you think this is important to the action of the shot? Maybe you don't know and/or don't care and/or don't want to give away your "secrets," but I thought I would try to ask anyway.

Again, I look forward to seeing clear video demonstrations (from you or others) of post-rebound curve in the short direction. I also look forward to finding out if it is possible to curve the ball the same way on the Connelley, Valleys, and Gold Crowns to which I have convenient access.

With respect,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

John has been featured on enough Accu-Stats DCC matches that he could be their poster child. Certainly, if there are curving/hooking OBs being banked with gay abandon, there must be bookoo examples on those DVDs of John doing it or perhaps one of the other banking mechanics...

Lou Figueroa

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Maybe the object ball curving is in the realm of quantum mechanics.

Or maybe it entered a different universe for a sec, and popped back out from that universe on a different trajectory.

Maybe J.B. Is a Jedi master and he just made it curve with his mind.
Clearly he has an insane midichlorian count.

 

[lfigueroa]

Maybe the object ball curving is in the realm of quantum mechanics.

Or maybe it entered a different universe for a sec, and popped back out from that universe on a different trajectory.

Maybe J.B. Is a Jedi master and he just made it curve with his mind.
Clearly he has an insane midichlorian count.

A wormhole would go a long way in explaining it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Cornerman]

I'm going to call it "hooking" next time And I'm going to try it with some long cross corners. I think it will show up more and or better.

I might be wrong but I really do think it takes the correct "stroking method" . ( that I have not see on the other vids by the way)

On second thought...I'm not real sure about giving away my methods and not getting any credit for them. ( i know,I'm an ass)

I might just scrap the whole thing and let people think what they want too. John B.

I wouldn't blame you if you scrapped it.

 

[john coloccia]

Or maybe he just popped it off the table just right that however it's bouncing around causes it to come off with a touch of top spin. And yeah, that would probably require a certain kind of stroke on the cueball. Notice that the cueball seems to be in flight before impact, and in my opinion the 9 ball is in flight from impact through bouncing off the rail.

Maybe he tells the tale in his his follow through? He's a pro. I wouldn't blame him if he didn't just give everything away. I certainly don't in my day job, though I give away most of it. Some stuff I keep to myself.

I hope John goes through with his videos anyway.

 

[dr_dave]

I hope John goes through with his videos.

If not, I hope somebody else can post a clear and convincing video showing an obvious and useful amount of post-rebound curve.

Regards,
Dave

 

[12squared]

If not, I hope somebody else can post a clear and convincing video showing an obvious and useful amount of post-rebound curve.

Regards,
Dave

My good doctor,

I do not have a video, but curving an object ball during a bank is not a myth. I have seen it several times at Match Up's while in perfect position to witness it (right down the return line to the pocket); Dino has done it many times in the past and I think my opponent did it just in the last week or two. And the cloth was not new as you know.

Good luck with your video, I know it can be done, but it needs a certain type of stroke and speed. I am confident that if he wants to recreate it, JB can and will...he is the banking man! I am of the understand that Truman Hogue did it all the time.

Love,
The other Dr. Dave

 

[John Brumback]

Sorry to disappoint anyone that was following my thread.

But I have been informed by a few people in the pool world ( Who I respect their opinions) that I should leave this debate alone ( or just say that I'm wrong and get the hell out of this for a lack of better words.....

All I can say is if you want to learn my way of banking (and curving) It's right there on my 1st dvd. a measly 50 bucks for 30 years of my hard work and all the knowledge I have gained playing with,growing up with and hanging around with and then beating the best bank pool players in the world.Oh and lots of practice,lots of it. Sincerely,John B.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well...

Another good opportunity for AZB members to learn run off by the 'science'.

No offense to you, John.

I totally understand.

All the Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

My good doctor,

I do not have a video, but curving an object ball during a bank is not a myth. I have seen it several times at Match Up's while in perfect position to witness it (right down the return line to the pocket); Dino has done it many times in the past and I think my opponent did it just in the last week or two. And the cloth was not new as you know.

Thanks Dave. Maybe I'll try to catch Dino and ask him to show me what he can do. And if I can get some good video footage, I would be happy to post it for others to see.

Again, I do believe it is possible to get post-rebound curve. In fact, when Bob Jewett and I filmed a bunch of bank stuff years ago, I was shocked when we didn't see any curve. Also, when I filmed my recent video, I was sure the ball was bending when I hit some of the shots (especially the ones with the roughened-up ball which was very easy to stiff short). I was convinced I saw bending during the filming. Unfortunately, when I reviewed the video carefully later, I found no bend. Also, when people claimed Freddy's DVDs clearly showed bend, I checked it out and agreed that the ball was bending; but when I looked at the Freddy shots more closely, I realized they were actually heading straight to the pocket.

Anyway, I hope somebody (John, me, or others) can post video of a bank shot with the best combination of speed, cut angle, spin, angle into the cushion, and ball/table conditions that will clearly show a convincing and useful amount of bend.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Rubik's Cube]

Would employing casino balls in your tests be a sound suggestion, gentlemen? The solid colour might guard against any optical illusion of curving caused by the spinning spots and stripes.

 

[dr_dave]

Sorry to disappoint anyone that was following my thread.

But I have been informed by a few people in the pool world ( Who I respect their opinions) that I should leave this debate alone ( or just say that I'm wrong and get the hell out of this for a lack of better words.

John,

I have sensed a lot of hostility toward me in this thread ... not so much from you, but from others. I hope you haven't thought I have been disrespectful to you. That certainly was not my intent. I honestly believe that it is possible to get a clear and convincing amount of bend, even though I have yet to see it in person or in videos. And I genuinely want to know what type of shot, hit, and ball/table conditions are most likely to create the most bend. This is why I study stuff like this ... to help improve understanding that can potentially be useful to players (or to people simply trying to replicate the shots).

I hope you realize how much respect I have for you and what you have accomplished in your amazing bank-pool career. I also respect that you are willing to participate here on AZB, where people aren't always mature, friendly and/or respectful. That takes guts. I hope you stay, and I hope you remain willing to continue to share your knowledge and experience. Many people, including me, appreciate this.

If you decide to not post a new video, hopefully somebody else will be willing to give it a try. I will also try to get some footage with some top local bankers reported to be able to bend the ball.

Best regards, with respect,
Dave

 

[HawaiianEye]

Dr Dave is NEVER going to be able to recreate it himself, because he has nowhere NEAR the stroke as John. And if he is going to do it, he may want to try it on a table other than the one he uses in his videos. Not knocking it, because it is expensive, but it doesn't play the same as Gold Crowns and common Brunswick pool hall tables. Show me some pool halls with that brand of table as their main playing tables.

That is a FACT that the Dr is going to have to live with until he achieves the same stroke. I don't care how much pool school he goes to or teaches.

I play with an A-player every Sunday who can recite everything he ever read in a pool book and he watches the good Dr's videos online.

Just LAST Sunday, he told me he could do better playing me if he had the same stroke as me. FWIW, he is a A-player, and not just a APA3 expert, and I probably beat him 4 or 5 games to his every 1.

To QUOTE him last Sunday, he said, "it is UNUSUAL playing you (me) because players of "YOUR CALIBER" usually will not play us (A-players) unless we play for money. We learn stuff from you."

That isn't a brag, it is just a fact. I can't play as well as I used to, but this guy has played for 50 years and claims I'm the only guy who ever ran a 5-pack on him and I was over 60 when I did it. I made the 9 on the break in the 6th game and the cue ball got knocked in the side by a flying ball. I will be 62 on Sunday and I hope to run something higher on him on my birthday. This will be my last chance to do it on Easter and my birthday...that doesn't occur again until the year 2157.

 

[Banks]

Dr Dave is NEVER going to be able to recreate it himself, because he has nowhere NEAR the stroke as John. And if he is going to do it, he may want to try it on a table other than the one he uses in his videos. Not knocking it, because it is expensive, but it doesn't play the same as Gold Crowns and common Brunswick pool hall tables. Show me some pool halls with that brand of table as their main playing tables.

Brumback uses a diamond, fwiw.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

We have some pretty good bank pool players in western Ky. Buddy Hall, Eddie Moore.. I can tell you I've seen many, many, banks curve.....Standing behind the player looking down the rebound shot line... i've even commented...will you look at that ball curve...lol This is on the main Gold Crown we play on so its not just Diamonds. Its common to see Buddy curve a bank...

 

[Bob Jewett]

This thread has run a little off the rails, so to speak. Let me try to make it more interesting.

Here's a hypothesis: A bank shot cannot be made to reverse curve as much as an inch and a quarter in a table width.

Here's the test: Place an inch-wide board on the table. Place three pegs against the board as shown, with the middle peg roughly in the middle of the table. Remove the board. Bank a ball generally along the path of the board without touching the pegs.



This shows the path of the banked ball barely missing the pegs. The position of the pegs needs to be verified with the board after the shot. The pegs have to be tall enough that the ball can't go over them. 4 inches probably will be enough.



Of course, no goofy tilted table, no goofy lop-sided object ball, no other goofy tricks. The equipment and conditions have to be more or less tournament standard. The path of the ball has to be curved, more or less as illustrated. Pool table between 8 and 10 feet long.

It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500.

I'll be at the SBE and the US Open 14.1, coming up soon. I'll be at Sandcastle between those two events. I'll be in Houston over Memorial Day. I'll probably be at DCC next January. Let me know if you want to try and I'll be sure to pack my handycam.

Practice up. That's $1000 for a single, successful shot.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Sorry to disappoint anyone that was following my thread.

But I have been informed by a few people in the pool world ( Who I respect their opinions) that I should leave this debate alone ( or just say that I'm wrong and get the hell out of this for a lack of better words.....

All I can say is if you want to learn my way of banking (and curving) It's right there on my 1st dvd. a measly 50 bucks for 30 years of my hard work and all the knowledge I have gained playing with,growing up with and hanging around with and then beating the best bank pool players in the world.Oh and lots of practice,lots of it. Sincerely,John B.

Thanks for the effort.
I know where you are coming from though.

Some things just aren't worth it.

Happy ball bending.