curving an object ball....

[ENGLISH!]

The 3 peg thing is an overly restrictive suckers bet... if it would be a bet.

The ball can be sent further up table & held with speed but would hit the first beg.

That does NOT mean that the ball would not be curving back toward the pocket.

The 3 pegs creates a very small window for success.

More 'science'? With what intent?

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave is NEVER going to be able to recreate it himself, because he has nowhere NEAR the stroke as John. And if he is going to do it, he may want to try it on a table other than the one he uses in his videos. Not knocking it, because it is expensive, but it doesn't play the same as Gold Crowns and common Brunswick pool hall tables. Show me some pool halls with that brand of table as their main playing tables.

You apparently haven't watched my recent video or read my two recent posts (quoted below).

Firstly, I don't care if it is me or John or somebody else that posts a clear and convincing video of a banked ball curving short. I just want to see it, and try to understand it. I honestly have no desire to attempt to master such a shot ... my limited practice time is much better spent on other more practical and useful things, IMO. Apparently, Bob Jewett wants to see it too, to the tune of $1500! That's a nice offer, Bob! Maybe I'll try a little harder in my next filming session. That would almost cover the cost of my pool table.

Secondly, my Connelly home table is not expensive at all. I spent less than $2000 on it retail and new in 2002. If you think that is expensive, you probably haven't purchased or shopped for a pool table before.

Thirdly, I did try the shot on multiple tables: my home Connelly, a Valley bar box, and a Gold Crown!

Regards,
Dave

Maybe I'll try to catch Dino and ask him to show me what he can do. And if I can get some good video footage, I would be happy to post it for others to see.

Again, I do believe it is possible to get post-rebound curve. In fact, when Bob Jewett and I filmed a bunch of bank stuff years ago, I was shocked when we didn't see any curve. Also, when I filmed my recent video, I was sure the ball was bending when I hit some of the shots (especially the ones with the roughened-up ball which was very easy to stiff short). I was convinced I saw bending during the filming. Unfortunately, when I reviewed the video carefully later, I found no bend. Also, when people claimed Freddy's DVDs clearly showed bend, I checked it out and agreed that the ball was bending; but when I looked at the Freddy shots more closely, I realized they were actually heading straight to the pocket.

Anyway, I hope somebody (John, me, or others) can post video of a bank shot with the best combination of speed, cut angle, spin, angle into the cushion, and ball/table conditions that will clearly show a convincing and useful amount of bend.

John,

I have sensed a lot of hostility toward me in this thread ... not so much from you, but from others. I hope you haven't thought I have been disrespectful to you. That certainly was not my intent. I honestly believe that it is possible to get a clear and convincing amount of bend, even though I have yet to see it in person or in videos. And I genuinely want to know what type of shot, hit, and ball/table conditions are most likely to create the most bend. This is why I study stuff like this ... to help improve understanding that can potentially be useful to players (or to people simply trying to replicate the shots).

I hope you realize how much respect I have for you and what you have accomplished in your amazing bank-pool career. I also respect that you are willing to participate here on AZB, where people aren't always mature, friendly and/or respectful. That takes guts. I hope you stay, and I hope you remain willing to continue to share your knowledge and experience. Many people, including me, appreciate this.

If you decide to not post a new video, hopefully somebody else will be willing to give it a try. I will also try to get some footage with some top local bankers reported to be able to bend the ball.

Best regards, with respect,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

I wouldn't blame you if you scrapped it.

Jesus Christ, don't encourage him to wimp out.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

My good doctor,

I do not have a video, but curving an object ball during a bank is not a myth. I have seen it several times at Match Up's while in perfect position to witness it (right down the return line to the pocket); Dino has done it many times in the past and I think my opponent did it just in the last week or two. And the cloth was not new as you know.

Good luck with your video, I know it can be done, but it needs a certain type of stroke and speed. I am confident that if he wants to recreate it, JB can and will...he is the banking man! I am of the understand that Truman Hogue did it all the time.

Love,
The other Dr. Dave

Plenty of Accu-Stats videos of the bank pool mechanics doing their thing. Sure Truman is on a few of them.

Post an example.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Sorry to disappoint anyone that was following my thread.

But I have been informed by a few people in the pool world ( Who I respect their opinions) that I should leave this debate alone ( or just say that I'm wrong and get the hell out of this for a lack of better words.....

All I can say is if you want to learn my way of banking (and curving) It's right there on my 1st dvd. a measly 50 bucks for 30 years of my hard work and all the knowledge I have gained playing with,growing up with and hanging around with and then beating the best bank pool players in the world.Oh and lots of practice,lots of it. Sincerely,John B.

Don't be that guy, John.

We all have a ton of respect for you and your game and your accomplishments. So if you can do it, post a video. Put up or shut up -- Bob Jewett is offering $1K. No one is picking on you. No one wants to drive you off the site. People want to learn and understand.

If you can do it, do it. Prove it. Believe it or not, I want you to show it can be done.

Lou Figueroa

 

[John Brumback]

That would be the best course of action.

It's the stroke that's the key and if you don't know how to stroke, you'll never get a ball to curve off a rail. I've had a ball curve off the second rail, but not the first, and it's was the stroke that made it happen.

Until one understands and controls, and I mean finely control the speed and angle of the cue, you don't know what a stroke is.

The stroke is where the magic happens. It's the thing the separates the good players from the best players.

Yep,and you just gave me an idea for my new phrase to coin for pool...." angle of attack" (Golfers will get this and pool players,(well some), will soon) quoted by John B. with Duckie's help. on this day 3-25-16 :thumbup: John B.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Dr Dave,

You spend a lot of time at the table and recording things. Please set up your camera on a 9-foot Gold Crown and let us see you run a 5-pack of 9-ball.

I'm not debating that you may have some scientific credentials...I want to see your actual playing credentials at their finest with no gimmicky camera work or edits.

It isn't what you say that offends some on here, it's the manner in which you say it. You are polite and courteous with your comments, but you sound like one of those liberal college professors talking down to a student, but in this case (John) the student has a hell of a lot more credibility.

I can sit up 1,000 different shots and make each shot once for the camera and say "that's how you do it". Let's see it in action.

 

[Daryle]

I always find the Drs videos informative, just like the TV show - Mythbusters. I'm more inclined to accept the scientific approach taken by the Dr and as in most things, it's not proven until it's reproducible.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[John Brumback]

Dr Dave,

You spend a lot of time at the table and recording things. Please set up your camera on a 9-foot Gold Crown and let us see you run a 5-pack of 9-ball.

I'm not debating that you may have some scientific credentials...I want to see your actual playing credentials at their finest with no gimmicky camera work or edits.

It isn't what you say that offends some on here, it's the manner in which you say it. You are polite and courteous with your comments, but you sound like one of those liberal college professors talking down to a student, but in this case (John) the student has a hell of a lot more credibility.

I can sit up 1,000 different shots and make each shot once for the camera and say "that's how you do it". Let's see it in action.

Can you imagine tryin to run a 5 pack with all that stuff going through your head? Not a chance. John B.

PS; But I will give him credit...I wish I could write as half as good as he does:embarrassed2:

 

[Bob Jewett]

... the 3 pegs creates a very small window for success.
More 'science'? With what intent?

Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't require it to be done on a single shot. I'm willing to watch and run the video and help set up the pegs for an hour or two. I just want to see it happen once. I don't think anyone can curve a bank that much, and it's only a little over half a ball. But if I'm wrong, I'm willing to pay $1000. And another $500 if the technique is learnable.

Now that I think of it, small wooden blocks will probably work better than pegs, but either is fine with me.

 

[John Brumback]

Don't be that guy, John.

We all have a ton of respect for you and your game and your accomplishments. So if you can do it, post a video. Put up or shut up -- Bob Jewett is offering $1K. No one is picking on you. No one wants to drive you off the site. People want to learn and understand.

If you can do it, do it. Prove it. Believe it or not, I want you to show it can be done.

Lou Figueroa

You called me a wimp and no I don't believe you. I'm calling you a creep,I hope that's ok? John B.

 

[John Brumback]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't require it to be done on a single shot. I'm willing to watch and run the video and help set up the pegs for an hour or two. I just want to see it happen once. I don't think anyone can curve a bank that much, and it's only a little over half a ball. But if I'm wrong, I'm willing to pay $1000. And another $500 if the technique is learnable.

Now that I think of it, small wooden blocks will probably work better than pegs, but either is fine with me.

I was thinking golf tees?? I do think you have a good idea if it's set up right and fair. JB

 

[ENGLISH!]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't require it to be done on a single shot. I'm willing to watch and run the video and help set up the pegs for an hour or two. I just want to see it happen once. I don't think anyone can curve a bank that much, and it's only a little over half a ball. But if I'm wrong, I'm willing to pay $1000. And another $500 if the technique is learnable.

Now that I think of it, small wooden blocks will probably work better than pegs, but either is fine with me.

What I was saying is that your pegs or blocks make the window too small & requires a specific angle & a specific curve.

It's sort of like telling a tennis player that their top spin ground stroke when struck 24 inches above the ground HAS to go a certain height over the net & hit a yard before the base line.

They can hit many top spin ground strokes over the net from 24 inches off the ground & get the ball down before the base line...

but how many will it take to get the ball to go exactly YOUR height over the net & down YOUR yard before the base line?

It's too specific.

The net & the base line are the limits. It has to go over the net & get down before the base line using top spin.

CJ Wiley talked about quick english. That is when the ball takes a quick change of direction due to the spin & then rolls out vs a ball that spins & slides & then grabs spinning away.

I think some are looking for a long 'slow' curve or some other specific curve.

The ball can curve quick or it can curve late depending on the different combinations of spin, speed, & cloth friction.

So... I'm just saying that your pegs make the window too specific.

Why can't the ball be sent farther up table & held with speed & also have a curve component on it.

To do what you want would require the ONE combination of spin, speed, & cloth friction & that's too restrictive & confining of a window for success to YOUR limits.

Regards & Best Wishes.

 

[pt109]

John Brumback...
...don't get too close to the test tubes.
Your talent is making things happen, not explaining how things happen.

About one hundred years ago, there was a big controversy in the English Billiards world...
..."whether you could transmit 'side' to the object ball."
Big arguments and friendships lost over whether spin could affect the path of the object ball.

So when Walter Lindrum, the greatest Enlish Billiards player ever, got back from Austalia, they posed the question to him......

...so he set up a natural half-ball 'in-off' at the black spot end ..left side...and put the cue ball in the 'D'....he said "I'll tell you this....if you make the in-off and want the cue ball to go towards the yellow spot, put left hand side on it...if you want it to go towards the green spot, put right hand side on it."
"I don't care what you call it, this is what HAPPENS,"

+ 'side' = spin or english

Keep knockin' them straight-backs in, John.
...your friend
..pt

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
It's too specific.

...

No it's not. I don't mind if the shooter uses dents in the cloth or paper reinforcements or such to make sure the cue ball and object ball start in the same place every time. A good player will be able to pass within a mm of the first peg, no problem, once they get the placement and speed down.

I'm also not picky about the angle out of the cushion, except the ball has to curve away from the rail, as shown, and not back towards the cushion as with slow-roller follow.

The only problem I see with this is that the cushion might get a little squirrely being hit in the same place fairly hard for an hour or two. But the final peg doesn't have to be near a pocket. The whole setup can be moved up and down the cushion. I don't care if the ball goes in or not. I want to see the curve. Unambiguously.

And I'm willing to pay for the experience.

 

[ENGLISH!]

No it's not. I don't mind if the shooter uses dents in the cloth or paper reinforcements or such to make sure the cue ball and object ball start in the same place every time. A good player will be able to pass within a mm of the first peg, no problem, once they get the placement and speed down.

I'm also not picky about the angle out of the cushion, except the ball has to curve away from the rail, as shown, and not back towards the cushion as with slow-roller follow.

The only problem I see with this is that the cushion might get a little squirrely being hit in the same place fairly hard for an hour or two. But the final peg doesn't have to be near a pocket. The whole setup can be moved up and down the cushion. I don't care if the ball goes in or not. I want to see the curve. Unambiguously.

And I'm willing to pay for the experience.

Just for discussion purposes... Let's say that getting the OB to curve is a given.

Do you not see where your pegs require a specific curve from a specific entry angle into the rail?

Remove the first peg & the ball has to go to the right of the peg in the middle of the table & then to the left of the peg by the pocket & do so with a curve, ANY CURVE, on the ball.

That would allow the CB to hit the rail in a range including further up & curve back.

All I'm saying is that your scenario requires ONE specific combination of spin, speed, & cloth friction.

Curve too early it hits the peg in the center of the table.

Curve too late it hits the beg near the pocket.

That does not mean that there was not curve on the ball.

Why not just have a laser line or a chalk line on the table?

Again...

Regards & Best Wishes.

 

[John Brumback]

Just for discussion purposes... Let's say that getting the OB to curve is a given.

Do you not see where your pegs require a specific curve from a specific entry angle into the rail?

Remove the first peg & the ball has to go to the right of the peg in the middle of the table & then to the left of the peg by the pocket & do so with a curve, ANY CURVE, on the ball.

That would allow the CB to hit the rail in a range including further up & curve back.

All I'm saying is that your scenario requires ONE specific combination of spin, speed, & cloth friction.

Curve too early it hits the peg in the center of the table.

Curve too late it hits the beg near the pocket.

That does not mean that there was not curve on the ball.

Why not just have a laser line or a chalk line on the table?

Again...

Regards & Best Wishes.

I was thinking the same thing after you brought that up. Great minds think a like I guess John B.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Curve too early it hits the peg in the center of the table.
....

I'm not picky about where the middle peg is, either. Put it were you like, but it has to be touching the alignment board.

I wouldn't even mind if you put up three or four middle pegs and any shot that didn't knock them all down would be OK. Of course, you can't knock down either end peg.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

How about use a laser line on the table on the rebound angle. Sight the camera along the line... Aim the object ball at the spot on the rail where the laser hits it and record as it runs the line...

 

[Bob Jewett]

How about use a laser line on the table on the rebound angle. Sight the camera along the line... Aim the object ball at the spot on the rail where the laser hits it and record as it runs the line...

Because I'm not paying $1000 for a video of a laser line. It's my test. I think I'm being pretty flexible. Also, if someone wants to try it at home, they don't need a laser -- just three 3-inch sections of dowel. Or three bent 3x5 index cards standing on edge. And they don't need a camera to see if they've got some curve.