I'm not reccommending it for everybody, but yes, they use english when it wouldn't seem neccessary. Grady says it's more natural and Buddy uses it to aim.
cut shot philosophy
- Thread starter youngstownkid
- Start date
I'm not reccommending it for everybody, but yes, they use english when it wouldn't seem neccessary. Grady says it's more natural and Buddy uses it to aim.
Using helping english is for when you need the help. On a soft shot, or when you try to kill the cue ball, stunning the cue ball, half ball hits, etc. The throw factor, dirty balls and humidity also may call for helping english on a shot. You don't need the help on every shot.
Best,
Mike
Best,
Mike
I agree with this. The main reason I might use a touch of outside is if I'm afraid of catching a skidder or to reduce CIT. On very thin cut shots I prefer to use inside and I'm not sure why except that I pocket more often that way. Perhaps it's a little easier to aim with the cue on the inside. But in any case as the shot gets longer I"m inclined to take deflection out of the equation by playing center ball. And I will rarely slow roll the game ball.
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I am shocked by how many answered "center ball." Are you guys just saying center ball to be somehow PC??? In what universe are people hitting center ball for their best option? That seems to be the best option for a cut shot if you want to maximize your CIT and increase your chances for skid. Have at it, but if I watch all of you, I think you're doing something else.
Freddie <~~~ thinks it was a good question with questionable responses
Freddie <~~~ thinks it was a good question with questionable responses
The youtube was an excellent example of how to play cut shots on the last ball. Always play the cue ball. Even on straight in shots focus on making the purest stop shot possible.
John
Conversely, when I use Center Ball on a cut shot I account/adjust for the skid. Ain't hard to do once you get used to the idea.
thanks everyone for your feedback.
we sure did have a lot of folks commenting on position. even in rotation games, it seems to me that there are often more than one way to get position on a ball, so i was surprised there were so many comments like that
(idea for another poll - is there more than one way to get position on the next ball LOL)
...but again thanks to ALL i do appreciate every comment.
we sure did have a lot of folks commenting on position. even in rotation games, it seems to me that there are often more than one way to get position on a ball, so i was surprised there were so many comments like that
(idea for another poll - is there more than one way to get position on the next ball LOL)
...but again thanks to ALL i do appreciate every comment.
Totally agree.
I must add here that on an extreme cut and if close to the pocket, I use inside english. Why? Because your vision is on the proper side of the cueball. i.e. On a cut to the right, you sight down your cue and place the edge of the cueball at the edge of the object ball. You cannot do this as well if you are using outside english, IMHO.
Freddie:
I totally understand your skepticism concerning this. But believe me, I'm indeed cueing centerball. (You might recall I'm a big booster of snooker fundamentals, and I'm kind of anal about cueing precision.)
One thing that I've done for my game -- and this may sound strange -- is to incorporate CIT into it. That is, where everyone else abhors and shudders at the mere thought of CIT, I embrace it. I made it part of my aim, part of my game. It's so unconscious now, that I don't think about CIT anymore. When I aim, CIT "adjustment" (if you want to call it that, which, to me, it isn't, because, for me, it's part of the shot itself) is built-in. My aim is dependent on how hard I'm hitting the shot. Slow speed? I throw the ball into the pocket. More speed? Less compensation -- closer to the true ghostball contact in-line with the pocket. When warming up, the half-ball hit is my favorite shot -- it tells me a lot about how the balls are reacting on the table, CIT and otherwise.
Will you be at SBE? If so, I'd welcome the opportunity to show you how I do it.
-Sean
Unfortunately, I won't be at SBE this year. That makes two years in a row and I'm sick about it.
I understand what you're doing Sean, but it seems to strengthen my point of why the majority of pool players wouldn't hit center.
Not to influence anyone else's answer, but I personally will cinch a ball by hitting with a little draw or a little follow depending on the shot (see John Barton's answer as his sounds just like mine). I also understand why someone would shoot with a little outside english on every cinched cut shot.
Freddie
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I think that this post says it all. And interestingly, whether it's the low outside that the pros seem to use (like Buddy on this Youtube) or the pure stop shot, both would use low which is statistically equivalent with inside english in this poll in dead last. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.....
Freddie <~~~ went with the pros
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Here's another at 8:53, case ball. Earl can hit any place on the cueball to make this ball. Guess what? Low outside. Imagine that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzJCeodZJXQ&feature=related
Freddie <~~~ can't imagine hitting in the center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzJCeodZJXQ&feature=related
Freddie <~~~ can't imagine hitting in the center
When shooting the last ball, my first preference is center ball. It’s the easiest. If I’m concerned about scratching or I want to play a 2-way shot (leaving the cue ball safe in 8-ball while making the OB) I would first consider adjusting my speed up or down slightly. But I don’t want to feather the shot and not reach the pocket, or slam it in, which might increase my aim error or rattle the ball in the jaws. My next preference would be to use follow with speed adjustment as needed. My next preference would be draw. Draw does increase the miscue chance. Also, as Dr. Dave points out on his web page ( http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/june07.pdf ), CIT is maximized on a stun shot (and with a half-ball hit by the way). My last resort would be English. I have not experimented much with outside English to reduce CIT, but my hard maple shaft causes a lot of squirt and I don’t like to use much English unless the OB is close to the pocket. Therefore I prefer center ball with a thinner hit to compensate for CIT.
I missed a shot on the 8-ball in a recent league match, related to the above. I had a backward cut down the length of the table. My opponent had one ball left so I decided to shoot a stun shot on the 8, which would leave him with no shot if I missed. This was in a bar with very dirty balls that threw like crazy. I had already noticed that but did not correct enough by hitting thinner. The draw I used created the half-ball stun hit that maximized CIT and I slightly missed the shot. Better in retrospect would be to not use stun but to adjust my speed.
I missed a shot on the 8-ball in a recent league match, related to the above. I had a backward cut down the length of the table. My opponent had one ball left so I decided to shoot a stun shot on the 8, which would leave him with no shot if I missed. This was in a bar with very dirty balls that threw like crazy. I had already noticed that but did not correct enough by hitting thinner. The draw I used created the half-ball stun hit that maximized CIT and I slightly missed the shot. Better in retrospect would be to not use stun but to adjust my speed.
To me this is a “situational situation”. Many of which have already been discussed, left English, right English, center ball, follow, center ball, and even low ball. I was brought up to ALWAYS have control of the CB. This meant to be aware of the affects of spin on the CB (deflection, swerve, or whatever) and its path of travel or location. I keep in mind where do I want the CB after the shot if I do miss; I mostly judge this by where would the OB be after a ‘pro’ side miss. After I have this stored away I do nothing but focus on cinching the ‘game’ ball. But after all is said and done, I do prefer low outside whenever possible. I do put CIT and CBRO effects in the equation.
Gerry S
Gerry S
Still looking for an answer to one of my questions - if using a little low outside to cinch the ball, for you guys does the outside factor into your aiming at all, or is it so little that you don't have to compensate for it?
I'm not talking about how most of us when we reach a certain level just sort of auto-compensate for things, however that's done. Just like Sean mentioned, you can be aware at the table of the shot angle and speed based on experience and just compensate for that with your aim. I'm saying do you aim at the exact same place on the object ball and stroke the same way with your low outside cinch shot as you would if you were hitting center ball, not counting CIT? In other words, when you approach the shot, does it factor into your aiming process at all? I would think it would have to if using any appreciable english, which then means to me that there would be a tradeoff between accuracy with possible CIT (center ball) and eliminating CIT but possibly reducing shot accuracy (outside).
I'm asking because for myself, I've been trying to aim everything starting at center ball, and then if I need english I make an adjustment using BHE for instance. It seems to work well for most shots, and I "feel" like I'm starting every shot from a pure center ball position, so if the shot looks good at center and my adjustments are correct based on experience than I have high confidence that I can adjust or pivot for any type of english and the shot will still go in no matter what speed or spin I choose.
So if using some outside to cinch shots, how much? Just a very slight tweak, 1/4 tip, 1/2 tip, etc.? Any adjustments you make, and any danger of occasionally getting too far outside to where deflection or curve enters in when not planned for?
Not trying to belabor this, but for some reason this has been one of those unanswered questions in my mind for a long time, just curious what other people do and how they came to that conclusion. Pretty good discussion on the reasons why, now I'm curious about the mechanics of it.
Scott
I'm not talking about how most of us when we reach a certain level just sort of auto-compensate for things, however that's done. Just like Sean mentioned, you can be aware at the table of the shot angle and speed based on experience and just compensate for that with your aim. I'm saying do you aim at the exact same place on the object ball and stroke the same way with your low outside cinch shot as you would if you were hitting center ball, not counting CIT? In other words, when you approach the shot, does it factor into your aiming process at all? I would think it would have to if using any appreciable english, which then means to me that there would be a tradeoff between accuracy with possible CIT (center ball) and eliminating CIT but possibly reducing shot accuracy (outside).
I'm asking because for myself, I've been trying to aim everything starting at center ball, and then if I need english I make an adjustment using BHE for instance. It seems to work well for most shots, and I "feel" like I'm starting every shot from a pure center ball position, so if the shot looks good at center and my adjustments are correct based on experience than I have high confidence that I can adjust or pivot for any type of english and the shot will still go in no matter what speed or spin I choose.
So if using some outside to cinch shots, how much? Just a very slight tweak, 1/4 tip, 1/2 tip, etc.? Any adjustments you make, and any danger of occasionally getting too far outside to where deflection or curve enters in when not planned for?
Not trying to belabor this, but for some reason this has been one of those unanswered questions in my mind for a long time, just curious what other people do and how they came to that conclusion. Pretty good discussion on the reasons why, now I'm curious about the mechanics of it.
Scott
If position is not a concern, I prefer "gearing" outside English, especially if conditions are clingy or variable (e.g., with old, dirty, beat-up balls). However, this ins't the best advice for everybody. One must be good at compensating for squirt and swerve and judging the "gearing" amount of English. FYI, lots of information on this topic can be found here:
Regards,
Dave
