Cyclops vs brunswick & aramith

[Bavafongoul]

But Looks Matter A Whole Bunch......

To each their own.....beauty is in the eye of the beholder....blah, blah, blah.

Truth is if the looks aren't appealing, the product will never be successful.


Ever hear of Cleveland VAS Golf Irons.......how about Ping Zing Irons......and of course, the famous Ping Zing 2?

If the consumer doesn't like the looks, then the product won't be a hit......that's just Business 101.

And all this baloney about Aramith balls being off on weight.....Let's get this straight. I've bought 5 sets of new Centennials so far and 1 used set.....all of these balls in all 6 sets......16 balls to the set......all of these balls were within 0.7 grams on one another and most of the pool balls weighed the same (and the Brunswick Centennial cue ball was identical weight in the 5 new sets @ 168 grms measured on my Ohaus).

Like I said, to each their own but when I look at the cue ball, I don't want it looking back at me.......the one eyed ball set is just a fugazzi attempt to dethrone Centennials as the #1 set. Tournaments should invest the money & use Centennials. Arrange a bulk purchase - play with the best pool balls available, "Brunswick Centennials" & eliminate all complaints on the balls.

Matt B.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the balls play better than "almost" every human

How do the balls play better than "almost" every human playing pool?

Maybe those humans need the game to be their teacher rather than the balls.

I won't say Cyclop are better - but I also won't say Aramith are better. As far as I am concerned, they both play better than almost every human playing pool.


Mark griffin

 

[Mark Griffin]

Cyclop

Matt,

Not comparing Centennials- I previously said I like Centennials. I also never said anything about their weights because I don't have 20 sets around to weigh - but did of Cyclop and Aramith.

But a bigger question us-------how do you propose Diamond could ever use Brunswick ball? Do you see a conflict here? Or do you think ford should use a Chevy engine in the Mustang.

Not trying to be a smartass but is everyone just forgetting the facts of reality?

Markg

To each their own.....beauty is in the eye of the beholder....blah, blah, blah.

Truth is if the looks aren't appealing, the product will never be successful.


Ever hear of Cleveland VAS Golf Irons.......how about Ping Zing Irons......and of course, the famous Ping Zing 2?

If the consumer doesn't like the looks, then the product won't be a hit......that's just Business 101.

And all this baloney about Aramith balls being off on weight.....Let's get this straight. I've bought 5 sets of new Centennials so far and 1 used set.....all of these balls in all 6 sets......16 balls to the set......all of these balls were within 0.7 grams on one another and most of the pool balls weighed the same (and the Brunswick Centennial cue ball was identical weight in the 5 new sets @ 168 grms measured on my Ohaus).

Like I said, to each their own but when I look at the cue ball, I don't want it looking back at me.......the one eyed ball set is just a fugazzi attempt to dethrone Centennials as the #1 set. Tournaments should invest the money & use Centennials. Arrange a bulk purchase - play with the best pool balls available, "Brunswick Centennials" & eliminate all complaints on the balls.

Matt B.

 

[leto1776]

To each their own.....beauty is in the eye of the beholder....blah, blah, blah.

Truth is if the looks aren't appealing, the product will never be successful.


Ever hear of Cleveland VAS Golf Irons.......how about Ping Zing Irons......and of course, the famous Ping Zing 2?

If the consumer doesn't like the looks, then the product won't be a hit......that's just Business 101.

And all this baloney about Aramith balls being off on weight.....Let's get this straight. I've bought 5 sets of new Centennials so far and 1 used set.....all of these balls in all 6 sets......16 balls to the set......all of these balls were within 0.7 grams on one another and most of the pool balls weighed the same (and the Brunswick Centennial cue ball was identical weight in the 5 new sets @ 168 grms measured on my Ohaus).

Like I said, to each their own but when I look at the cue ball, I don't want it looking back at me.......the one eyed ball set is just a fugazzi attempt to dethrone Centennials as the #1 set. Tournaments should invest the money & use Centennials. Arrange a bulk purchase - play with the best pool balls available, "Brunswick Centennials" & eliminate all complaints on the balls.

Matt B.

Sorry, but your biased poll did not prove that Centenniels are the number one set, and you have no justification to call them so over Aramith.

 

[mnb]

i wonder how long it will be before Simonis cloth will be "replaced" in tournaments by a cheaper alternative.

* Simonis acquired Saluc (manufacturer of Aramith balls) in 2012.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Cj

Obviously what I am saying is that I don't believe there are but very few that can really play good enough that the balls could affect their game. It may affect their head - but to really affect their game.

They may miss and blame the equipment- but both sets play so good there is no real difference. They do have different characteristics. Very few players are skillful enough to really tell - and if you have 10 players you will get 10 different opinions. Not 10 different facts.


I'm not saying this as good as I should - but I'm pretty sure most understand what I'm saying.

Markg

How do the balls play better than "almost" every human playing pool?

Maybe those humans need the game to be their teacher rather than the balls.

 

[AtLarge]

I think the Brunswick Centennial balls are great balls - mostly based on appearance. They are made by Saluc. I also think Aramith super pro balls are very good. ...

The top-of-the-line balls made by Saluc are the Aramith Tournament Balls, with the matching black-logo cueball. These balls have been available now for over 5 years. Tournaments that have used them (with a measles CB) include Turning Stone, Accu-Stats Make-It-Happen events, and the International Tournament of Champions.

http://www.saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=10

 

[CJ Wiley]

I remember the "good ole days" when sponsors actually added money

I remember the "good ole days" when sponsors actually added money to the Pros.

Simonis used to give the pro tour (PBTA) approximately $60,000 a year in sponsorship.

Diamond chipped in another $80,000 (table installations and added money)

APA was the biggest with well over $100,000 (they had RJ Reynolds / Camel Brand)

BCA added over $100,000 (to WPBA and their own BCA Pro Events and TV ads)

This scenario certainly changed, didn't it?

They used that money to make sure several events were televised on ESPN, and/or Fox Sports.

i wonder how long it will be before Simonis cloth will be "replaced" in tournaments by a cheaper alternative.

* Simonis acquired Saluc (manufacturer of Aramith balls) in 2012.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Obviously what I am saying is that I don't believe there are but very few that can really play good enough that the balls could affect their game. It may affect their head - but to really affect their game.

They may miss and blame the equipment- but both sets play so good there is no real difference. They do have different characteristics. Very few players are skillful enough to really tell - and if you have 10 players you will get 10 different opinions. Not 10 different facts.


I'm not saying this as good as I should - but I'm pretty sure most understand what I'm saying.

Markg

Brunswick Centennial balls were 'pre-simonios" cloth???

On mud cloth a harder/slicker ball was preferred!

Simonios 860 is 20% nylon 80% wool? Simonios 760 is 30% nylon 70 wool? Mud cloth is 100 wool? Wool has 'more' friction than nylon? Based on my understanding, that is correct!

The cloth/ball combination is like ice skating under new cloth and clean ball conditions existing at many tournaments! These "conditions" are hard or impossible to replicate at your local pool room. That is the problem! IMO

Another consideration is the reports of raised numbers or surfaces on the ball? How truly round could it be if this is the case? An egg shaped ball "can't" roll true! Focusing on weight and ignoring is it round is crazy! IMO

Kd

 

[phil dade]

Mark and Royce touched on the reason. Forget which is better for a minute. Diamond has financial interest in Cyclop. Diamond carries big weight as a sponsor. They will and are using that weight to support thier financial interest. In their shoes, we all would do the same. As a sponsor, if you cut out one of my products or attempted to do so, I would reduce my support. I would make it hurt, but not enough to affect my key product but enough to make the decision to change financially appealing. It is about the money amd whatever Diamond as a table supplier brings to the party.

Diamond appears to be interested in making a great product, evidence "Blue Label vs. Red Label". Royce brought excellent advise to the thread and everyone who cares. Lobby Diamond the right way, or lobby Brunswick, but right now it is like pissing in the wind. It appears having Diamond and Aramith or Centennials is like wanting your cake and eating it too.

 

[Colonel]

GS has shown that he is willing to work on a product to make it better. Will everyone end up happy? Probably not. But he's putting his money where his mouth is and putting on big, successful tournaments and introducing new equipment in an attempt to standardize the sport.

Lou Figueroa

GS has shown that he will change a product just so it's different than what was existing, that doesn't necessarily make it better, just different. Like an earlier poster stated, I've never really been fond of diamond tables because of the Artemis cushions. They're beautiful tables but if I have a choice I'd play on a GC with super speed cushions. Green cloth has been in pool forever, Mr. Sullivan decided HE wanted something different for HIS tables & came out with the blue stating some nonsense about what research shows regarding being able to see balls better or doesn't strain the eyes as much. I'm not fond of that change either, I have an optometrist friend that states the human eye is naturally able to pick out things against a green background better than ANY other color. Then we come to Cyclops balls, again GS wanted something to go with HIS tables. Was there something wrong with the balls Saluc produces that have been the gold standard of the game for quite some time? Not at all, perhaps it's that Saluc produces Centennial balls for Brunswick that's the issue for Mr. Sullivan as Brunswick is a direct competitor. So they buy into Cyclops & try to force it to be the new standard. Your premise is he's introducing new equipment to the game in an attempt to standardize the sport. I believe the sport should have standardized equipment, it's been a problem forever but why does it have to be "new" equipment? Why can't it be standardized using the best equipment available? Does it have to come from the mind of Greg Sullivan & does he have to have a financial piece of it to fit the bill? Pool doesn't have many willing to put $ in it, that's true. Just because someone does put $ in gives them the right to change EVERYTHING? Maybe it does. Does that make it the BEST? I guess it depends on who you ask.

 

[trob]

That's because most people don't realize that centennials and super amaranths ARE THE EXACT SAME BALL lol The only thing different is the classic way the centennials are colored. this has been discussed to death on this forum. . Even if cyclops were better pool players would hate them because we seem to hate change. Hell players still make fun of someone who uses a glove and they've been around for 25 years .

Did a poll on AZ earlier this year that ran for a month......results are plain and clear........the one eyed set was blown away in popularity by Brunswick Centennials.

04-14-2014, 09:43 AM Cyclop Pool Balls
​

Over the past couple months, it seems like the Cyclop pool ball design popularity that was being bolstered by AZ threads has taken a genuine nose-dive........big time.

When the bulk buy of Cyclop sets was recently being put together, there were Azers coming out of the wood work expressing interest in getting a set of Cyclop pool balls and amazingly, there was lots of people indicating they wanted the skittles color set instead of the traditional color set.

Well, I've been a critic of the Cyclop design and so I bought a set to compare with Centennials which I think rate #1 when it comes to pool ball sets. I even started a poll that you can search if you're curious. The poll results conducted over a month confirmed overwhelmingly that Azers ( 3 out of 4) prefer the Brunswick Centennial design over the Cyclop design and the Cyclop skittles color set was a total flop according to the poll results, which I always suspected because I think the skittles version Cyclop actually has an unappealing appearance, i.e., ugly.

And when you adjust the survey for Azers that voted neutral (no preference for Centennials or Cyclop pool balls) which was a small number, 8 out of 10 Azers that participated in the survey preferred Centennials.....that's a huge difference.....4 out of 5.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Matt,

Not comparing Centennials- I previously said I like Centennials. I also never said anything about their weights because I don't have 20 sets around to weigh - but did of Cyclop and Aramith.

But a bigger question us-------how do you propose Diamond could ever use Brunswick ball? Do you see a conflict here? Or do you think ford should use a Chevy engine in the Mustang.

Not trying to be a smartass but is everyone just forgetting the facts of reality?

Markg

YES
Reality checkometre needs to be pulled out. :thumbup:

 

[lfigueroa]

GS has shown that he will change a product just so it's different than what was existing, that doesn't necessarily make it better, just different. Like an earlier poster stated, I've never really been fond of diamond tables because of the Artemis cushions. They're beautiful tables but if I have a choice I'd play on a GC with super speed cushions. Green cloth has been in pool forever, Mr. Sullivan decided HE wanted something different for HIS tables & came out with the blue stating some nonsense about what research shows regarding being able to see balls better or doesn't strain the eyes as much. I'm not fond of that change either, I have an optometrist friend that states the human eye is naturally able to pick out things against a green background better than ANY other color. Then we come to Cyclops balls, again GS wanted something to go with HIS tables. Was there something wrong with the balls Saluc produces that have been the gold standard of the game for quite some time? Not at all, perhaps it's that Saluc produces Centennial balls for Brunswick that's the issue for Mr. Sullivan as Brunswick is a direct competitor. So they buy into Cyclops & try to force it to be the new standard. Your premise is he's introducing new equipment to the game in an attempt to standardize the sport. I believe the sport should have standardized equipment, it's been a problem forever but why does it have to be "new" equipment? Why can't it be standardized using the best equipment available? Does it have to come from the mind of Greg Sullivan & does he have to have a financial piece of it to fit the bill? Pool doesn't have many willing to put $ in it, that's true. Just because someone does put $ in gives them the right to change EVERYTHING? Maybe it does. Does that make it the BEST? I guess it depends on who you ask.

From your post I’m guessing you’ve never spoken to GS, or you wouldn’t be so ill-informed. He’s not going for different, he’s going for better.

So you don’t prefer Diamonds, others do -- they're going into rooms, public and private, all over the world and are pretty much becoming the industry standard. Nonsense about the blue cloth? Wrong again. He had sports ophthalmologists -- doctors that specialize in how the human works -- recommend that, not an optometrist down at the mall who can fit you with glasses.

As to Aramtith, once again you show how ill-informed you are. The change to Cyclop balls came about because Aramith was unresponsive, not because he wanted "something to go with his tables." Guys who run big events need hundreds of sets of balls. So Greg decided he'd provide another alternative, produced with better materials, and turned out to higher specs. Do they play a bit different? Yes. So did mud balls from ivory ones; so did Centennials from the mud balls; so did the Aramiths from the Centennials; and now the Cyclop from the Aramiths. There's always been change. Some guys just need to get over it and adjust.

Lou Figueroa

 

[hang-the-9]

i wonder how long it will be before Simonis cloth will be "replaced" in tournaments by a cheaper alternative.

* Simonis acquired Saluc (manufacturer of Aramith balls) in 2012.

Like Andy Cloth? Done and done, although mostly overseas in Asia.

 

[hang-the-9]

I remember the "good ole days" when sponsors actually added money to the Pros.

Simonis used to give the pro tour (PBTA) approximately $60,000 a year in sponsorship.

Diamond chipped in another $80,000 (table installations and added money)

APA was the biggest with well over $100,000 (they had RJ Reynolds / Camel Brand)

BCA added over $100,000 (to WPBA and their own BCA Pro Events and TV ads)

This scenario certainly changed, didn't it?

They used that money to make sure several events were televised on ESPN, and/or Fox Sports.

Didn't Camel add in $250,000 to divide among the top ranked players outside of the tournament winnings? I remember Buddy or someone talking about that on an AccuStats tape, the top player got something like an extra 80k.

 

[Colonel]

From your post I’m guessing you’ve never spoken to GS, or you wouldn’t be so ill-informed. He’s not going for different, he’s going for better.



So you don’t prefer Diamonds, others do -- they're going into rooms, public and private, all over the world and are pretty much becoming the industry standard. Nonsense about the blue cloth? Wrong again. He had sports ophthalmologists -- doctors that specialize in how the human works -- recommend that, not an optometrist down at the mall who can fit you with glasses.



As to Aramtith, once again you show how ill-informed you are. The change to Cyclop balls came about because Aramith was unresponsive, not because he wanted "something to go with his tables." Guys who run big events need hundreds of sets of balls. So Greg decided he'd provide another alternative, produced with better materials, and turned out to higher specs. Do they play a bit different? Yes. So did mud balls from ivory ones; so did Centennials from the mud balls; so did the Aramiths from the Centennials; and now the Cyclop from the Aramiths. There's always been change. Some guys just need to get over it and adjust.



Lou Figueroa

Well as I stated at the end of my post, "are these changes better, it depends on who you ask". You're right Lou, Diamonds are taking over the industry, as I also stated they are beautiful tables but the Artemis cushions have almost twice the rebound potential than any other cushion. Is this better? It depends on who you ask, those with a powerful stroke generally don't like them, those with anemic strokes generally do., it's easier to move the ball but combined with Simonis makes it like an ice rink, you can leave your stroke at home as it's not needed. As far as sports ophthalmology goes what is that exactly? Do our eyes react differently playing sports? The reference my optometrist friend gave came from his studies when entering the field that there is far more green in nature than any other color, that as we evolved our eyes did also to pick up against the most prevalent color in nature, green, it's just a fact but I'm sure if you pay someone enough money they can produce a study to refute that. As far as the ball issue goes have there not been "big events" in pool more in the past then there are now? Most certainly & they all managed to procure enough balls from Saluc to stage them. Perhaps that is the reason GS gives but it seems a little more than convenient that Saluc produces Aramith balls but also produces Centennials for Brunswick, a direct competitor of Diamond. Also convenient is that GS has a financial stake in Cyclops vs Saluc so is it about availability & quality or about profit? I guess it depends on who you ask. The bottom line is GS says the changes he is introducing in equipment are about it being "better" but isn't it unusual that these changes are all different from what the Gold Standard of the industry was before? We're there massive complaints about the things he's changing? Not really. Have there been more complaints about the changes? It seems so. So again the question is are these changes better? It depends on who you ask. Oh and BTW, if someone has a different opinion than yours in life it doesn't mean that they are "ill informed", it means their opinion is different. It's generally arrogant people that want to apply the ill informed tag. Just sayin'.

 

[alaskanadams]

As far as the Cyclop balls are concerned the cue ball is perfectly smooth. I have a brand new set of the (skittle) balls and a brand new set of super aramith pro (TV pro-cup). Both sets are perfect, both sets are beautiful, I have 0 (zero) complaints with either set.
As far as another company in the biz...I think competition is always good for all of us, better quality, lower prices, more R&D.............total win win for all of us. FYI, I am playing both of these sets of balls on a brand new table that is as perfect as any table I've ever played on. There are no funny rolls with either set. In case your wondering...the table is a Olhausen Montrechet 8' with accu-guard cloth....thanks...mark :thumbup:

 

[lfigueroa]

Well as I stated at the end of my post, "are these changes better, it depends on who you ask". You're right Lou, Diamonds are taking over the industry, as I also stated they are beautiful tables but the Artemis cushions have almost twice the rebound potential than any other cushion. Is this better? It depends on who you ask, those with a powerful stroke generally don't like them, those with anemic strokes generally do., it's easier to move the ball but combined with Simonis makes it like an ice rink, you can leave your stroke at home as it's not needed. As far as sports ophthalmology goes what is that exactly? Do our eyes react differently playing sports? The reference my optometrist friend gave came from his studies when entering the field that there is far more green in nature than any other color, that as we evolved our eyes did also to pick up against the most prevalent color in nature, green, it's just a fact but I'm sure if you pay someone enough money they can produce a study to refute that. As far as the ball issue goes have there not been "big events" in pool more in the past then there are now? Most certainly & they all managed to procure enough balls from Saluc to stage them. Perhaps that is the reason GS gives but it seems a little more than convenient that Saluc produces Aramith balls but also produces Centennials for Brunswick, a direct competitor of Diamond. Also convenient is that GS has a financial stake in Cyclops vs Saluc so is it about availability & quality or about profit? I guess it depends on who you ask. The bottom line is GS says the changes he is introducing in equipment are about it being "better" but isn't it unusual that these changes are all different from what the Gold Standard of the industry was before? We're there massive complaints about the things he's changing? Not really. Have there been more complaints about the changes? It seems so. So again the question is are these changes better? It depends on who you ask. Oh and BTW, if someone has a different opinion than yours in life it doesn't mean that they are "ill informed", it means their opinion is different. It's generally arrogant people that want to apply the ill informed tag. Just sayin'.

The rubber issue is one that can be debated. But I do know this: some of the greatest bank pool ever played is on display every year in the Banks division of the DCC. That would be on Diamonds and the guys up in the booth, and the players and fans in the arena, marvel at what they’re seeing live and on-camera. I also know that there are bank shots available on a Diamond that you can’t even get started on a GC. I know this because Chris Gentile shot a five-railer on me to win a match at the DCC a couple of years ago that I’d never seen before. As much as I hated losing, it was a tremendous shot you can't even think of shooting on a GC.

It’s true that you can move the ball around more easily on a Diamond with new Simonis and balls fresh from the factory. But with those conditions you can do that on a GC too and you’re rarely going more than a rail or two for position, so it's a minor difference.

And massive complaints? Really. A few guys are kevetching and, because of the internet, a few whiners have their comments echo enough that it is all to easy to believe that the few are a majority. Look at the measles ball -- guys still to this day bee-atch about it, even though it’s been around for years. There will never be a situation where an equipment change is going to make everyone happy. The truth is that nowadays you can always get someone somewhere to agree or disagree with anything. The point is that what he’s done is a good faith effort to improve the sport.

As to the issue of being ill-informed, I've had extended conversations with the guys involved with the development of the Cyclop balls: Greg, Mark, and Paul. If *you* haven’t had those discussions your opinion is not just different, it’s also ill-informed.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Jaden]

Diamonds changed...

The rubber issue is one that can be debated. But I do know this: some of the greatest bank pool ever played is on display every year in the Banks division of the DCC. That would be on Diamonds and the guys up in the booth, and the players and fans in the arena, marvel at what they’re seeing live and on-camera. I also know that there are bank shots available on a Diamond that you can’t even get started on a GC. I know this because Chris Gentile shot a five-railer on me to win a match at the DCC a couple of years ago that I’d never seen before. As much as I hated losing, it was a tremendous shot you can't even think of shooting on a GC.

It’s true that you can move the ball around more easily on a Diamond with new Simonis and balls fresh from the factory. But with those conditions you can do that on a GC too and you’re rarely going more than a rail or two for position, so it's a minor difference.

And massive complaints? Really. A few guys are kevetching and, because of the internet, a few whiners have their comments echo enough that it is all to easy to believe that the few are a majority. Look at the measles ball -- guys still to this day bee-atch about it, even though it’s been around for years. There will never be a situation where an equipment change is going to make everyone happy. The truth is that nowadays you can always get someone somewhere to agree or disagree with anything. The point is that what he’s done is a good faith effort to improve the sport.

As to the issue of being ill-informed, I've had extended conversations with the guys involved with the development of the Cyclop balls: Greg, Mark, and Paul. If *you* haven’t had those discussions your opinion is not just different, it’s also ill-informed.

Lou Figueroa

The red label diamonds banked like shit. They just didn't bank true...

For players who just bank by feel and played on diamonds all the time it was fine, but for players who expect banks to bank true, the red labels sucked balls.

The diamond blue labels are one of the best playing tables on the market.

Tighten up the pockets a tad with a slightly straighter facing angle relative to the pocket and they're perfect.

Jaden