Dallas West old school 14.1
- Thread starter alphadog
- Start date
Dallas West, whom I watched live on many occasions, was one of the great technicians of his day, a virtual ball running machine. I doubt it's a technical weakness in his game that explains why he or others from the golden age of straight pool didn't run 714.
The three straightest shooters in the game today are Fedor Gorst, Jayson Shaw and Josh Filler, My opinion is that of the players of yesteryear, only Luther Lassiter shot as straight as these three, and straight pool wasn't his best game.
As a group, today's players pocket the balls at a previously unmatched level of accuracy, so it's best to give them their due rather than ask why the past greats didn't run more.
The three straightest shooters in the game today are Fedor Gorst, Jayson Shaw and Josh Filler, My opinion is that of the players of yesteryear, only Luther Lassiter shot as straight as these three, and straight pool wasn't his best game.
As a group, today's players pocket the balls at a previously unmatched level of accuracy, so it's best to give them their due rather than ask why the past greats didn't run more.
And Mosconi should be in this dialogue.
Couldn't agree more. Although, maybe one reason today's players pocket balls better is that they have access to more and better information faster than players of the past. With the internet people have been able to share information cheaply and quickly--and not just about pool, but also about general notions of skill development and mental preparation for competition. I think in the old days (at least for American players) they just had to go to the pool hall and take their lumps and learn over time.
Fedor Gorst was on Pool Player Podcast, and in his interview I think he said that he had a coach at the age of 6 or something. Maybe it wasn't 6, but it was certainly before he hit middle teens. I don't want to take away from Mr. Gorst's accomplishments, he still had to do the work behind what might have been an early advantage.
I made a comment to a buddy after watching an old one-pocket accu-stats match I hadn't seen in a long time, that I think modern players would have eaten those guys for lunch. The game has progressed and generally, I think the skill level of (especially of the elite players) is above where it used to be.
just my 0.02
kollegedave
The level of instruction available in all sports has led to technical skills in pure performance that are much more consistent across the boards than years ago. In pool, it is a known fact that many, not all, of the very very good to great players prior to the internet age had access to pool rooms from a young age due to their fathers or relatives owning pool rooms.
Many of the greats in pool from yesteryear had some form of technical training on stroke, etc. that most pool players from their same era never experienced until much later in life, if at all.
Today, if a very young person ( pre-teen) for some reason expressed a great interest in billiards, they would have access to tons of training, that if applied correctly, should result in ball pocketing and cueing skills by their teen years well beyond all average and many very good mature players of yesteryear.
Many of the greats in pool from yesteryear had some form of technical training on stroke, etc. that most pool players from their same era never experienced until much later in life, if at all.
Today, if a very young person ( pre-teen) for some reason expressed a great interest in billiards, they would have access to tons of training, that if applied correctly, should result in ball pocketing and cueing skills by their teen years well beyond all average and many very good mature players of yesteryear.
That's interesting Stu - how do you think Sigel stacked up against Fedor, Shaw, and Filler in terms of shotmaking? Granted I never got to see Sigel in his prime, but it always seemed like he could put a tough shot down when he had to. My general impression was that of his generation (not counting Earl, though there is overlap) Sigel shot incredibly straight.
In my opinion, Sigel didn't shoot straighter than any of these three, and neither did Earl, although neither was far behind them. Nick Varner has suggested that Luther Lassiter is pool's straightest ever shooter. I never saw Lassiter in his prime, but Nick's opinion carries a lot of weight with me.
Sigel's strongest suit was that he was the greatest closer I've ever seen. Nobody was more dominant in the late rounds of major events. Two pretty credible players said: "Mike Sigel is the best pool player I've ever played against." Their names are Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland.
Filler has a similar championship pedigree to that of Sigel, which is why his resume of titles at age 24, which already includes the three hardest titles to win in our sport (namely the China Open, the US Open 9-ball, and the World 9-ball), is almost unfathomable.
Guys like Gorst, Filler and Shaw may one day be viewed as the straightest shooters the game has ever seen, but it's a bit too early to proclaim them as such.
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xX-Wizard-Xx
Well-known member
in my opinion ... to compare anyone to the days of mosconi they need to use standard maple shafts. all standard equipment. sure todays equipment is better than before. let jayson shaw run 714 balls with a standard cue.
Absolutely and may i add much tougher game to play on those way slower tables than the ones of today.
Not necessarily. While the pack may not spread as well, the larger pockets likely meant fewer break shots were missed, and thus safely shot with more force. Position CB control also could be more sure due to less movement. Past comments re: how Willie never seemed to end up with a difficult shot would tend to thus validate (?).
I learned the game on slow cloth and composition balls.
It was an easy Anniversary table back in 1961.
The room I played in had 8 of them.
But I was still able to post a high run on it of 101 in 1963 with a house cue.
Did not know any better, it was what it was.
And I was 16 at the time with eagle eyes.
Racks didn't break out near as easy as they do now not even close, so a given position play was extremely vital then. As of now there is way more options loosen balls easier and be more creative continue a run despite tighter pockets! Lot high runs in day on 4 1/2 & 4 5/8 inch pockets to on slow cloth.
By every piece of logic, fewer break shots should have been missed back then as the pockets were looser. That said, I have been attending pro straight pool events since 1976, and I can tell you that MORE break shots were missed back then.
In part, it was because on the slower cloth, break shots had to be hit a bit harder to open the pack at all, but it's more to do with just how straight today's players shoot. As a group, today's elite pros pocket as well on 4 1/2" pockets as the old masters did on 4 7/8", which was a fairly common pocket spec back in the day.
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Can that old school conservative way of play even work with how the game is played today and against these players?
Good question. The offensive firepower today is incredible, for sure. Perhaps more so than at any other time. However - when I think of the "old school" way of running balls, I think of the Dallas West vs. Mike Zuglan match. Dallas had a two inning game, running a 57 and a 93. His method was "conservative" in the sense that he took fewer chances when opening the balls - it was really a controlled way of playing. But he still opened the balls and ran out rack after rack. It's really a delight to watch IMO. I think that, if that way of playing is indicative of the "old school," and you can get out in 1 or 2 innings that way - it's good against anyone in competition as hammering the balls and playing "power straight pool."
All else being equal though, yeah today's players are probably better off getting the balls open and running out. I think the difference is that playing "conservatively" means your opponent won't have an easy rack to start off with if you miss or wind up stuck.
Many 200+ ball runners in modern 14.1 tournaments, yet how often do they start out deep in the hole? Seems like ‘old school’ players never hesitated to take a long string of intentional fouls, rather than open up the rack for their opponent (?).
