Darren Appleton's comments on 9 on spot/ cue ball fouls/ pattern racking

[corvette1340]

You're a golf fan, imagine if every tournament has different rules. One tournament no sand wedges, the next tournament you lose four strokes for water hazard. Next tournament, a hole in one doesn't count. That's what pool is like. Not only do they have to adjust to different table sizes, pocket sized and different rails depending on table and clement... (Sort of like adjusting to different golf courses), but they have have to play by whatever rules that promoter prefers.

No other sport changes the rules. They're all standard, which makes them legitimate. Pool is a joke on the professional level.

you're kind of comparing apples to oranges here, but I'll play. In golf, the courses are much different for each tourney. In the majors the differences in courses and conditions is even that much more amplified. The formats are different in some tourneys as well. You have a couple of match play events each year (which do carry a different set of rules than stroke play), modified stableford scoring event, etc..You also have different weather conditions for each tourney.

If every golf tournament was played on the same indoor course with the same stroke play format and same rules then nobody would watch.

I love watching all different kinds of formats and rules variations. I love the high drama of the world 9-ball where pretty much any of the upper tier pros can win with the short race, alternate break format. I also love watching the long race gambling matches because it identifies the better player. I also like the different tournaments and their unique formats like derby city or the bar table championships, etc...Variety man, it's the spice of life.

 

[corvette1340]

Pattern racking is easily solved.

Anybody ever heard of Kelly pool?

Assume the rule is that the one is always the head ball, the nine is in the middle, and the two is at the back of the rack.

Use a Kelly pool bottle with pill numbers 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 inside the bottle. The opponent shakes the bottle and then the pills are pulled. Starting at front left to right, behind the one ball, place the balls in the order the pills were pulled.

Problem solved.

then each race to 9 would take 30 minutes extra, no thanks.

 

[HawaiianEye]

then each race to 9 would take 30 minutes extra, no thanks.

Had you rather they moan and groan for an hour?

I don't know about you, but I can do it in a couple seconds.

Maybe there are some slower people out there.

 

[dynamite]

then put up some money or get someone to put up some money and fund a tour or tourneys with the set of rules that YOU desire. Otherwise, practice for the set of rules in place at other promoters' tourneys like everyone else does. Do you think Shane would have such a dominant break in 9 ball and 10 ball if he didn't practice it so damn much?

I Don't Need to set a Tour up, We already play the rules US players want 90% of the year..
i play maybe 2 events a year with 1 on the spot rack your own regular rack that not on my goal list to win.. so i will keep my practice for the bigger events that mean more to me and try and keep winning world championships and major titles that pay the Most :thumb up:
But if i do set a tour up i will play by the rules that we play Worldwide 90% of the time.

The comment you made about not wanting to learn and study the rack or which patterns are best is just plain stupid. You may not agree with it, but until the format changes the ones that know it the best are gonna have the advantage. You don't want to be one of those people?

No i Don't !! I believe in fair play so i will stick to been Stupid and Playing to the Rules Which held me up good and brought me a lot of Success . Pattern racking not allowed so i don't do it. the rack, i rack them good enough to make ball most of the time i.e. I've won lot of events including 2 x us open champion with these rules I take a lot of Pride in that knowing i did it the Hard Way but Fair
luckily now only couple events left with these rules in usa. next year DCC 9ball will change and turning stone I've played once in 4-5 years Because of the break rule etc So i don't need to practice how to rack 9ball 1 on the spot anymore and pattern racking so thats a positive for pool and the game going forward . Luckily just about all the Promotors are Listening and changed or changing

I'll bring it back to when Corey learned the soft break, he told me he literally broke tens of thousands of times and studied the patterns and the speed at which he broke until he had it down to a science. Everyone cried because they thought it made 9-ball too easy, but they all damn sure tried to copy it until everyone was doing it and they implemented all of the breaking rules and changes.

but its hurt him in the long run Shame .


So, that being said, until the rules
change to what you want, you should do what gives you the best chance at winning, and it obviously isn't what you did at derby city.

DCC9 i only played because i was already there.But the rack/break didn't cost me my opponent played Really Good.
Plus like i said there is no events to practice for now playing these rules only turning stone which i don't care if i play or not like i said. .. We play the rules us players like the best 90% of the time So i will keep practicing the break that matters the most to me the rules we play 90% of the year :thumbup:

 

[cleary]

you're kind of comparing apples to oranges here, but I'll play. In golf, the courses are much different for each tourney. In the majors the differences in courses and conditions is even that much more amplified. The formats are different in some tourneys as well. You have a couple of match play events each year (which do carry a different set of rules than stroke play), modified stableford scoring event, etc..You also have different weather conditions for each tourney.

If every golf tournament was played on the same indoor course with the same stroke play format and same rules then nobody would watch.

I love watching all different kinds of formats and rules variations. I love the high drama of the world 9-ball where pretty much any of the upper tier pros can win with the short race, alternate break format. I also love watching the long race gambling matches because it identifies the better player. I also like the different tournaments and their unique formats like derby city or the bar table championships, etc...Variety man, it's the spice of life.

lol golf has a few goofy tournaments so the golf channel can fill their air time but for the most part, golf tournaments have the same rules of the game and similar formats.

 

[Daryle]

Pool needs standardised rules. A player coming out strong as Darren has done, indicated to me that officials are not listening.


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[dynamite]

lol golf has a few goofy tournaments so the golf channel can fill their air time but for the most part, golf tournaments have the same rules of the game and similar formats.

Well golds the ultimate challenge and a outside sport playing tithe same rules all the time.

Can't even compare the two ..

Compare pool to snooker same rules every time and money and tv and viewing figures are miles above pool.

Darts another let's say bar sport same rules same dart board massive sport now huge viewing figures and great spectator game.. Players making millions.

Bowling got more money than pool again same rules same set up every times brings in huge crowds
Tennis same rules every event same size court etc

Same with lots of games/sports everything same every event just different venues but they Doing something right can't be that boring lol..

Pool
Loads of bad sportsmanship ,dirty tables , different rules ,different disciplines , players treated bad for most part , different tables,no practice tables , no players lounge, ,cloth ,balls,break rules , no referees, fouls allowed some events not allowed others .. No money no tv hardly , no structure , load of promotors , nobody working together , different organizations , different races every events , tempreture change every few hours.. 90% of players broke costs them thousands out of pocket each year.

No viewers no spectators = no money and no sponsors.

I wish it was like other sports like snooker tennis darts and boring

 

[spartan]

Convergence NOT Divergence

Well golds the ultimate challenge and a outside sport playing tithe same rules all the time.

Can't even compare the two ..

Compare pool to snooker same rules every time and money and tv and viewing figures are miles above pool.

Darts another let's say bar sport same rules same dart board massive sport now huge viewing figures and great spectator game.. Players making millions.

Bowling got more money than pool again same rules same set up every times brings in huge crowds
Tennis same rules every event same size court etc

Same with lots of games/sports everything same every event just different venues but they Doing something right can't be that boring lol..

Pool
Loads of bad sportsmanship ,dirty tables , different rules ,different disciplines , players treated bad for most part , different tables,no practice tables , no players lounge, ,cloth ,balls,break rules , no referees, fouls allowed some events not allowed others .. No money no tv hardly , no structure , load of promotors , nobody working together , different organizations , different races every events , tempreture change every few hours.. 90% of players broke costs them thousands out of pocket each year.

No viewers no spectators = no money and no sponsors.

I wish it was like other sports like snooker tennis darts and boring

Great post
That about says it all
Amazing. The world is going for convergence in rules whether it is in sports or world affairs but we have folks here living under a rock preferring divergence in rules.
:grin:

 

[Corwyn_8]

I disagree. Mathematically, I don't see a difference between alternate break & winner break (at least not with respect to the chances of the better player winning).

Really? Let's see your calculations.

Or run your calculations assuming a 95% and 96% break and run percentage, with the 95% player winning the coin flip.


Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

I like nine on the spot and always have.

Is it really harder to make the nine with this arrangement, or is it just that we have not figured out how to yet?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

No, I mean get better or get over it, learn how to break. All this fluff about alternate breaks increases the chance of the better player is just that, fluff.

It is Mathematics.

It is apparently macho to think winner breaks is better for the better player, or the game itself. I have no idea why; Football isn't played scorer receives.

Thank you kindly.

 

[jburkm002]

I know it's been the same way forever but I have a question. No matter if you have pattern racking or not. Seems all issues stem from making the same balls on the break and having position on the one ball. You see it over and over. So my question is. Why does the one ball have to be placed in the same spot every rack? Seems to be the most important ball in the rack. While other balls may land randomly. Players try to leave the one ball in the same area. Would it be possible to rack the one and two ball randomly?

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[Bob Jewett]

Is it really harder to make the nine with this arrangement, or is it just that we have not figured out how to yet?

Thank you kindly.

Well, if the rack is tight the nine won't move for either rack position. If the nine does move immediately on the break, the rack was loose. At the US Open some players seemed to be using this fact and sent the cue ball off the side cushion and back through the rack to the waiting nine ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I know it's been the same way forever but I have a question. No matter if you have pattern racking or not. Seems all issues stem from making the same balls on the break and having position on the one ball. You see it over and over. So my question is. Why does the one ball have to be placed in the same spot every rack? Seems to be the most important ball in the rack. While other balls may land randomly. Players try to leave the one ball in the same area. Would it be possible to rack the one and two ball randomly?

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There's the "wrong ball first foul" rule which makes players want the one in front. Of course that could be suspended for the break shot. The problem with "random" is that some players assume this means "where I want them".

 

[BJTyler747]

Really? Let's see your calculations.

Or run your calculations assuming a 95% and 96% break and run percentage, with the 95% player winning the coin flip.


Thank you kindly.

Try this: Race to 2,

win prob if I break = 60%
win prob if I don't break = 50%

Alt break or winner break doesn't matter. Lag or coin flip equally important in both cases. I'll leave to you to perform the arithmetic.

-you're welcome

 

[BJTyler747]

Really? Let's see your calculations.

Or run your calculations assuming a 95% and 96% break and run percentage, with the 95% player winning the coin flip.


Thank you kindly.

Yes, i did run it, and alt break vs. win break doesn't matter. Perhaps you should actually do the math and not just assume it.

-you're welcome

 

[Corwyn_8]

False. Alternate break is literally the exact opposite of what you are saying. It prevent players from breaking and running out sets or getting huge leads.

Nope. Do the math. Breaking and running out sets or getting huge leads, before your opponent gets a chance to even come to the table favors weaker players.

If I have a 90% chance of breaking and running, and you have a 95% chance, I would in a race to 7, run out about 69.8% of the time. You would have at most a 30% chance to win despite being the better player, just because I won the coin toss.

All games which have an inherent advantage to going first, need someway to even that advantage, to make skill not luck the dominant factor in who wins. Football uses a combination of loser breaks, and alternate breaks. Go uses an adjustment to the actual final score. Baseball tries to offset it with home field advantage.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

Yes, i did run it, and alt break vs. win break doesn't matter. Perhaps you should actually do the math and not just assume it.

-you're welcome

Glad you ran the math. Let's see it.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Double-Dave]

Nope. Do the math. Breaking and running out sets or getting huge leads, before your opponent gets a chance to even come to the table favors weaker players.

If I have a 90% chance of breaking and running, and you have a 95% chance, I would in a race to 7, run out about 69.8% of the time. You would have at most a 30% chance to win despite being the better player, just because I won the coin toss.

All games which have an inherent advantage to going first, need someway to even that advantage, to make skill not luck the dominant factor in who wins. Football uses a combination of loser breaks, and alternate breaks. Go uses an adjustment to the actual final score. Baseball tries to offset it with home field advantage.

Thank you kindly.

If you want to tell people to do the math, ya might wanna check it yourself before doing so.
It's easy to mix up 90 and 95%.

But glad you ran the math. Let's see it.

gr. Dave

 

[jsp]

If I have a 90% chance of breaking and running, and you have a 95% chance, I would in a race to 7, run out about 69.8% of the time. You would have at most a 30% chance to win despite being the better player, just because I won the coin toss.

Getting your percentages mixed up aside, you still haven't mathematically proven that alternate breaks favors the better player.