Deflection question

[RBC]

poolteacher,

After re-reading your post, I do now understand. I agree that you are correct in that everyone must be comfortable with their equipment to be successful.

With the shot you pointed out, it's true that there are many who think shots like that Can't be made with LD shafts. But, as you said, you just need to be comfortable with the amount of squirt and swerve for not only the shaft you are using, but also the table conditions. That very shot on a slick fast Diamond or Gold Crown is a completely different animal than on a valley in Louisiana humidity and 22 year old cloth.

Great comments Fred! As always! By the way, I have something I want you to test out for me! Call me!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Jaden]

ok, the reason you would want a higher deflection shaft....

If you use BHE and switch to a LD shaft, you would have to bridge farther away than you'd be used to....

ld and hd shafts have different natural pivot points. You wouldn't want a pivot point right up next to the ferule and you wouldn't want one next to the joint. A nice middle of the road 12-14 inch pivot point works best and requires the least amount of adjustment.

Jaden

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Try placing the cue ball on the side rail just beyond the side pocket. Place the cue about 4 inches off the same side back at the headstring. It is almost impossible to make the ball in the corner without scratching in the side. However, with a standard shaft, as someone point out, you can hit the cue with bottom inside while aiming right at the center of the object ball. The deflection will cause the cue ball to squirt toward the rail, and then curve back to be moving more parallel to the side rail.

I have made this shot on more than one occasion with my shaft, but I'm not sure I would be successful with one of the LD shafts.

That being said, with the highest percentage of shots, the player who is going to make it is the one who knows exactly what his shaft is going to do, regardless of what kind of shaft they use.

Bottom line...you need to be familiar with YOUR equipment.

Steve

Could you put this shot on the WEI table?

 

[BRKNRUN]

Some deflection is a good thing...

I play using BHE so I depend on a certain amount of deflection....thus I prefer a shaft that has some defletion but not overkill.....too much and it starts to become un-predictable and inconsistent IMO.

 

[pooltchr]

Could you put this shot on the WEI table?

Sure...if I wasn't such a computer dummy!

Steve

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AbEc1PTmS@

 

[TATE]

I'm of this camp. There's nobody that can convince me that the Predator or any low deflection shaft actually raised my game. In fact, it lowered mine. And I gave it a fair shake for over a year (so nobody reading this should try to hint that I didn't give it enough time).

Fred <~~~ documented fair shaker

The same thing happened to a friend of mine who is pro level. His game slowly degraded with a Predator over a period of a year, but came back to him after switching back to a conventional shaft - once he fully adjusted.

I think some of this comes from the reason you mentioned. In his case he became used to playing position by hitting relatively low speed, high spin shots. He practiced on a poorly shimmed Gold Crown where the pockets would not hold a high speed "down the rail" fired in shot. So he habitually got position by manuvering the cue ball more using spin off the rail to get speed, rather than hitting shots harder (hope you know what I mean) - more of a finesse game than a power game.

As you know I use a Predator and like them. FYI, anyway, I tried my friend's conventional shafts and what he gravitated to was pretty low squirt shafts (for solid wood). He actually had a couple of extra conventional shafts made and he played poorly with one of them - even though it had identical specs to the others. There would be an occasional missed shot that was out of character. I tried the one he didn't like and the cue ball squirt was really high. It was interesting that neither one of us liked the HD shaft. I wouldn't play for a nickel with the HD shaft, but his others I could adjust to quickly.

When I mentioned masse with a Predator, I mean more of a half masse - (just bending the ball enough to get around a blocker), I find I miscue more with a Predator than with a solid shaft - which I think is due to the lack of weight at the tip end. The shot I sometimes get instead of the intended masse is the cue ball squirts out but doesn't make the swerve back.

Chris

 

[vakosel]

speed control maybe?

i try a HD shaft and a LD (doesnt matter which but well known) the last couple of days. i think the speed control of the cue ball is a little easier with the conventional shaft compared to the LD. Might be my idea. The shots werent difficult though . A simple run out but with some tricky shots like being in the wrong side of the object ball or snookered behind another ball .At these particular shots speed only was the issse... But maybe i am biased towards the HD shaft.. Definitely i am because speed is a matter of practice and getting familiar with your gear , isnt it? :grin-square:

Thanks again for your replies and your feedback

Kostas

 

[TATE]

i try a HD shaft and a LD (doesnt matter which but well known) the last couple of days. i think the speed control of the cue ball is a little easier with the conventional shaft compared to the LD. Might be my idea. The shots werent difficult though . A simple run out but with some tricky shots like being in the wrong side of the object ball or snookered behind another ball .At these particular shots speed only was the issse... But maybe i am biased towards the HD shaft.. Definitely i am because speed is a matter of practice and getting familiar with your gear , isnt it? :grin-square:

Thanks again for your replies and your feedback

Kostas

It takes some time to adapt to the LD shaft. The position play difference may seem like speed, but I think it is aim angle (even though you may be pocketing the balls you may be hitting a different side of the pocket - changing your shot angle, which affects your speed). Give it some time.

Chris

 

[JoeyA]

The same thing happened to a friend of mine who is pro level. His game slowly degraded with a Predator over a period of a year, but came back to him after switching back to a conventional shaft - once he fully adjusted.

I think some of this comes from the reason you mentioned. In his case he became used to playing position by hitting relatively low speed, high spin shots. He practiced on a poorly shimmed Gold Crown where the pockets would not hold a high speed "down the rail" fired in shot. So he habitually got position by manuvering the cue ball more using spin off the rail to get speed, rather than hitting shots harder (hope you know what I mean) - more of a finesse game than a power game.

As you know I use a Predator and like them. FYI, anyway, I tried my friend's conventional shafts and what he gravitated to was pretty low squirt shafts (for solid wood). He actually had a couple of extra conventional shafts made and he played poorly with one of them - even though it had identical specs to the others. There would be an occasional missed shot that was out of character. I tried the one he didn't like and the cue ball squirt was really high. It was interesting that neither one of us liked the HD shaft. I wouldn't play for a nickel with the HD shaft, but his others I could adjust to quickly.

When I mentioned masse with a Predator, I mean more of a half masse - (just bending the ball enough to get around a blocker), I find I miscue more with a Predator than with a solid shaft - which I think is due to the lack of weight at the tip end. The shot I sometimes get instead of the intended masse is the cue ball squirts out but doesn't make the swerve back.

Chris

Chris,
You're making some very good points as have others.

John Schmidt used to play with a Bobby Hunter cue and he played very well with it. The shaft was a traditional maple shaft but what a lot of people don't know is the shaft was rather narrow for a traditional shaft. The first three inches of the shaft was 12.0 mm and at 8" the diameter of the shaft was only 12.6 mm.

As traditional shafts wear down from play and cleaning as well as sanding, the diameter of the shaft becomes smaller. Eventually a player gets the shaft to an optimum size and that taper becomes his preference.

I'm only familiar with the LOW-DEFLECTION, OB Cue Shafts and the Predator Shafts and I originally tried the Predator shaft for more than 6 months and switched back to a traditional shaft. After a few more years of that I felt convinced to give the Predator 314-2 another chance and did so. The shaft played better than the original for me. It could be because I had decided to give the shaft the benefit of the doubt and make myself play well with it and I did.

Eventually, I decided to try out the OB 1 shaft and it seemed to put more spin on the cue ball than I was used to and every now and then I would miss a ball because of either swerve or throw or a combination of the two and opted to move to the OB 2 shafts. That's when I found my newest soul mate and have two OB 2 shafts and I tinker with them from time to time measuring them and comparing them with how they play. I let good players hit balls with both shafts and they can tell a difference between the two shafts. My digital micrometer denotes a very small difference in diameter from the old OB2 to the New OB 2 and of course the new one is slightly thicker in diameter and the better players like the older OB2. As the months have passed, I continue to play with the newer shaft and with cleaning it and very mild sanding I find there is only minute difference between the two shafts now.

While there's a lot to be said for getting used to your equipment, I prefer playing with the lower deflection shafts overall and I doubt if I will be going back to them, although I still have the JS/BH taper written down and may one day have a non LD shaft made with a short, light ferrule and those narrow dimensions. I would love to have an OB 2 ferrule on a good solid maple shaft with the JS taper to test how it plays.


JoeyA

 

[KRJ]

Stiff Shaft?

Steve,

You can make this shot with any shaft, you will just need to aim in different places with different shafts, different speeds, and different conditions. It sounds like for the shaft you are using, and with the speed you are using, and with your specific table conditions, you can aim this particular shot at the center of the OB; but this aim might not won't work with more or less speed, or with more or less cue elevation, or under different table conditions.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, I know you did some testing regarding shafts. What about some of the cuemake who use stiffer shafts, ones with much more spine at the back of the shaft. Or even a billiard shaft? Is deflection less with the stiffer shaft versus just the normal pro taper? What about compared to a laminated shaft. I tried hitting balls with all three types, and the only one I felt bad hitting were the cues with "whippy" shafts that had a lot more bend. I was all over the place with that shaft. The other two, stiff shaft and laminated shaft felt the same, but stiffer shaft felt better shooting from the rail. Not a scientific study, but it was given it a fair shake for a few hours to see what was good and bad for me.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Some deflection is a good thing...

I play using BHE so I depend on a certain amount of deflection....thus I prefer a shaft that has some defletion but not overkill.....too much and it starts to become un-predictable and inconsistent IMO.

There's a reason for that:

Each increment of tip offset equals more squirt with a high squirt shaft than the same increment with a low squirt shaft - so the same tip placement error has greater effect with a high squirt shaft.

The effect of tip placement errors is higher or lower for two shafts in the same ratio as the squirt produced by the two shafts. If a shaft produces 1/3 more squirt, then tip placement errors have 1/3 more effect.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Dave, I know you did some testing regarding shafts. What about some of the cuemake who use stiffer shafts, ones with much more spine at the back of the shaft. Or even a billiard shaft? Is deflection less with the stiffer shaft versus just the normal pro taper? What about compared to a laminated shaft.

The amount of mass at the tip end of the shaft ("endmass") is what is important. For a given ferrule and tip (which also contribute to "endmass") a I stiffer (less whippy) cue will usually have more endmass and more squirt. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#terminology
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[unknownpro]

Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas

If I aim for 1/2 ball deflection and you aim for no deflection, you will benefit from less deflection where I might benefit from more.

 

[Bob Jewett]

How do you aim for that much deflection? Seems like a Lot of space to be leaving up to you shaft.

You just get used to it and put your cue in the right place. With a high-squirt shaft, you sometimes aim a ball and a half from where you want to land on the object ball -- that is, for a thin cut to the left with inside english, you aim to hit half-ball on left side and let the ball squirt over a ball and a half. Demos of this amaze newbies, and make them want not to use high-squirt shafts.

 

[enzo]

Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas

i may have already posted this in this thread?? but the ONLY advantage, i think, is on masse shots. you can squirt the cueball out further, and thus normal shafts have an advantage i think-- but only because the very nature of what you need on this particular shot

 

[enzo]

i didnt read through the entire thread, but the whole point really of NOT wanting deflection is because of the fact that the amount of deflection changes as the distance to the ob changes (with any given speed). in other words, WITH deflection, you are trying to compensate for the deflection, but also you must compensate with respect to how far the ob is away from the cb. this is one of the reasons why long shots are so hard.

there really is no arguing that low deflection shafts have the capacity to be more accurate, as you dont have to perform this "distance" compensation as much.

 

[Ratta]

Hussa ,

You can t win *against the given physics*. Like some guys already shown up: YOU LL ALWAYS HAVE DEFLECTION!
And how also shown up: You just have to be sure with your equipment. If you have played several years with one and the same shaft and you change your shaft- it would be ABSOLUTLEY NO MATTER to what kind of shaft you would change (LD or HD, Laminated or non-laminated)- you will always be in trouble for a time (some shorter, some for longer). Wood is natural and how DrDave already said- the Endmass is the most important key for deflection. When i received my OB-1 (i always have to test for myself on things- until that i give a shit on what others saying without seeing it and testing it myself), of course i went immediatley to a pool-table and tested a bit. And even so i tested Masseshots (even extreme massee shots) and they all worked good- you can do any massee-shot- just a bit different aming.


Royce already wrote a really good thread on it- and Steve also-
but all in all there was, is and will be just one important thing for both (LD or HD)

PRACTICE....PRACTICE.....PRACTICE...and: KNOWLEDGEMENT!!!!!
nothin else!

i wish you all a wonderful happy new year,

lg
Ingo

 

[spliced]

..................

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Enzo:
the ONLY advantage [to higher squirt] is on masse shots. you can squirt the cueball out further

As has been pointed out many times, this is not an advantage. You don't need to "squirt the cueball out" for masse shots; you just have to aim it out. Even if you prefer to "squirt the cueball out", unless your cue is almost level it simply can't happen - with anything more than minimum butt elevation the masse spin prevents all or most of the squirt effect.

Enzo again:
the whole point really of NOT wanting deflection is because of the fact that the amount of deflection changes as the distance to the ob changes

I would say the "whole point" is that you simply can't aim directly at your target at any distance. And, in fact, swerve is a bigger reason people miss shots than squirt.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

spliced:
Why would you want to aim a ball and a half away when you could just aim where you want to hit?

What shaft allows you to "just aim where you want to hit"? None that I know of. Even if you could invent a no-squirt shaft, you'd still have swerve to deal with.

pj
chgo