Deflection question

vakosel

vakosel

Registered
Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas
 
I play with a higher deflection shaft and therefore my opinion may be a bit biased. There are several shots where IMO a higher deflection shaft makes the shot easier. One example is if the object ball is frozen to a rail with a high deflection shaft in some/most instances you can point the cue stick directly at the OB and the deflection will adjust and make the shot.

A friend of mine plays with a low deflection Predator and I have used it. It definately had its advantages in a lot of shots as well. I will never switch to it. I have been playing too long to make the adjustments required.

DR
 
Kostas

Imagine your object ball frozen on the short rail and your cue ball at the other end of the table with a 90 degree (or even greater) angle cut. You can cue the ball with inside english, deflect the ball outside the target line and line and the spin will curve the ball back in toward your object ball at a angle that wouldn't have been available if you hit the cue ball straight. Hope that makes sense.

The question is, does having those additional "curve" shots in your arsenal more of an advantage than having the cue ball generally act with less deflection and thus be easier to aim?

Kevin

PS Wow DR got there first.
 
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vakosel,

you will always have deflection- no matter what shaft you re playin with. Even on *non-laminated* shafts are differences in the deflection, because the shape and even the diamater will cause a different deflection. With laminated shafts you will have a *lower* deflection than with the most non-laminated. But you have to train hard with each of them:) Just for example: A few days ago i played for example with a Komarov Cue (from Russia)- and he s building shafts i ve never seen before- he s building *full splice* shafts- never played with a shaft like that...awesome low deflection.
Just choose a shaft you feel good with and play with it:) how i said- you can even find non-laminated shafts which have even a lower deflection than others. And so it will be with all the 314, 314², Z-Shafts or OB Shafts.

Shoot, look how u feel- and don t hear to much about that what guys tellin you about shafts- YOU are the important person that have to feel good with a shaft :-)

lg
Ingo
 
vakosel said:
Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection?
Click to expand...
FYI, I have a long list of potential disadvantages of low-squirt shafts here:


There are always at least two sides to every story.

Regards,
Dave
 
For the most part cue owners with high price cues use the shafts that came with them unless they want to "save" the shafts so they can sell the cue as if it were never used (can't believe anyone would do that :shocked2: )

Players with lower price or many times production cues may use a 3rd party shaft as a upgrade.

Others think that they are so called hot rodding their cue by using a special shaft. Giving them that magic feather and making them feel good as they now claim that they use a so and so shaft as if they are doing something special.

Some just want another shaft and it is cheaper than one from the maker or manufacturer.

I have done it all and tried many combinations. Truth is if you can aim, shoot with a nice stroke and play position you don't need anything other than the shaft that comes with the cue. The problem is I don't possess any of those skills so no matter what I use it doesn't matter either.
 
vakosel said:
Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas
Click to expand...

I would like to point out that there are some conventional custom shafts that are relatively low deflection, but it's pretty much trial and error to find them.

Really, there are very few situations where a "high deflection" shaft is an advantage. The only shots that stand out to me are masse and jump shots. These are more difficult with a shaft like a Predator.

I personally think the advantage of buying a Predator or similar shaft is they tend to have consistent play from shaft to shaft, so once you adjust your game to a Predator getting a new replacement shaft is no big deal.

Some players I know at the expert level do not adjust well to a Predator shaft - it hurts their game over time. But there are many who swear by them. Because of the nuances of perception (aim and feel), a player truly has to determine for themselves if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages - and they can only do it by trying both.

I also believe that a player has to be pretty skilled (not a beginner) to really notice the performance differences because they are pretty subtle.

Chris
 
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thanks a lot for your replies . I think trial and error and practice is the key point or better the solution to every single problem or difficulty in our game

Thanks again
Kostas
 
vakosel said:
Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas
Click to expand...

Whether a you learn to play with a Low deflection shaft or a normal shaft really doesn't matter, your personal ability is what will influence how you play not the shaft. I think either type of shaft will work well, but more important than the shaft you use is how and what you practice.

In my opinion there is only one way to become a great player and that is practice practice practice!!!!!:wink:
 
With the exception of Jump shots, there are no shots that, I have ever seen, that can't be made with low cue ball deflection shafts. LD shafts don't jump as well, but that's it. Tate mentioned masse shots, but all you really have to do is aim to miss the interfering ball. With HD shafts, the squirt pushes the cue ball to miss the interfering ball, but with LD, you have to aim more to the side to miss it. This is nothing different than a cut shot where the ball goes where you aim instead of squirting to the side.

One thing I would like to point out is that all players, for as long as we have been playing pool, have been making adjustments to their aim for changes in deflection or squirt. Remember how, when you got that new cue 15 years ago, you had to play with it for a few weeks to really get used to it. Very often, you played really bad and couldn't make a ball for a while. The difference was, most likely, caused by a change in deflection or squirt. Not all HD shafts squirt the same so when you change you would miss balls. After you played with it for while, you would adjust.

Also, as your old 13mm shaft gradually became smaller from the reconditioning and tip replacements, it gradually deflected the cue ball less and less. You adjusted to that real easy because it was very gradual, but when you got that new shaft, back at 13mm and this time with an ivory ferrule, all of a sudden you couldn't make a ball!

Welcome to the realization of changes in deflection or squirt!

LD shafts have become popular because they allow new players to learn to adjust to squirt much more easily, but they also allow the great players a better margin for error. When that great player misses his aim by just a little, the difference is much less so, he will make more "slightly miss aimed" balls than with regular squirt or high deflection shafts.

There is no doubt that switching to a LD shaft takes adjustment, but so does most any cue or shaft change. It's a bigger change from HD to LD or vice versa no doubt, but it really is the same thing.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
RBC said:
With the exception of Jump shots, there are no shots that, I have ever seen, that can't be made with low cue ball deflection shafts. LD shafts don't jump as well, but that's it. Tate mentioned masse shots, but all you really have to do is aim to miss the interfering ball. With HD shafts, the squirt pushes the cue ball to miss the interfering ball, but with LD, you have to aim more to the side to miss it. This is nothing different than a cut shot where the ball goes where you aim instead of squirting to the side.

One thing I would like to point out is that all players, for as long as we have been playing pool, have been making adjustments to their aim for changes in deflection or squirt. Remember how, when you got that new cue 15 years ago, you had to play with it for a few weeks to really get used to it. Very often, you played really bad and couldn't make a ball for a while. The difference was, most likely, caused by a change in deflection or squirt. Not all HD shafts squirt the same so when you change you would miss balls. After you played with it for while, you would adjust.

Also, as your old 13mm shaft gradually became smaller from the reconditioning and tip replacements, it gradually deflected the cue ball less and less. You adjusted to that real easy because it was very gradual, but when you got that new shaft, back at 13mm and this time with an ivory ferrule, all of a sudden you couldn't make a ball!

Welcome to the realization of changes in deflection or squirt!

LD shafts have become popular because they allow new players to learn to adjust to squirt much more easily, but they also allow the great players a better margin for error. When that great player misses his aim by just a little, the difference is much less so, he will make more "slightly miss aimed" balls than with regular squirt or high deflection shafts.

There is no doubt that switching to a LD shaft takes adjustment, but so does most any cue or shaft change. It's a bigger change from HD to LD or vice versa no doubt, but it really is the same thing.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

Amen!!! Good post.

Dick
 
Try placing the cue ball on the side rail just beyond the side pocket. Place the cue about 4 inches off the same side back at the headstring. It is almost impossible to make the ball in the corner without scratching in the side. However, with a standard shaft, as someone point out, you can hit the cue with bottom inside while aiming right at the center of the object ball. The deflection will cause the cue ball to squirt toward the rail, and then curve back to be moving more parallel to the side rail.

I have made this shot on more than one occasion with my shaft, but I'm not sure I would be successful with one of the LD shafts.

That being said, with the highest percentage of shots, the player who is going to make it is the one who knows exactly what his shaft is going to do, regardless of what kind of shaft they use.

Bottom line...you need to be familiar with YOUR equipment.

Steve
 
Poolteacher

I understand that there are plenty of shots that one person makes on a regular basis that they also miss when switching to a different or even LD cue or shaft. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be made, or is even harder to make with the LD cue or shaft.

All the things you mentioned as to why you can make it with an HD shaft and not with a LD shaft can be discounted.

First, "The deflection will cause the cue ball to squirt toward the rail" happens with both type of shafts. The only difference is where the cue is pointed or aimed at the start of the shot. The HD shaft is aimed more left to compensate for the squirt while the LD shaft is aimed much closer to the actual contact point because is squirts less. Once the ball leaves the tip on the same line the squirt of the shaft is done and over.

Second, "and then curve back to be moving more parallel to the side rail". This also happens with an LD shaft. Let's face it, the curve of the cue ball comes from the spin of the cue ball acting against the cloth. Either shaft spins the cue ball, so either shaft will curve the cue ball. In fact, most LD shafts spin the ball a little easier, so it could be argued that this is easier with an LD shaft than with a conventional HD shaft.

What it all boils down to it this. You should shoot with what you feel comfortable with. Me, I like LD as do many others. It's all about confidence. I have had countless people come to me with the same basic statement. I am more confident now that I bought my OB shaft. It makes me feel pretty good! They don't all say it the same way, but the meaning is the same, and it is completely unsolicited.

Thanks!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Steve,

You can make this shot with any shaft, you will just need to aim in different places with different shafts, different speeds, and different conditions. It sounds like for the shaft you are using, and with the speed you are using, and with your specific table conditions, you can aim this particular shot at the center of the OB; but this aim might not won't work with more or less speed, or with more or less cue elevation, or under different table conditions.

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr said:
Try placing the cue ball on the side rail just beyond the side pocket. Place the cue about 4 inches off the same side back at the headstring. It is almost impossible to make the ball in the corner without scratching in the side. However, with a standard shaft, as someone point out, you can hit the cue with bottom inside while aiming right at the center of the object ball. The deflection will cause the cue ball to squirt toward the rail, and then curve back to be moving more parallel to the side rail.

I have made this shot on more than one occasion with my shaft, but I'm not sure I would be successful with one of the LD shafts.

That being said, with the highest percentage of shots, the player who is going to make it is the one who knows exactly what his shaft is going to do, regardless of what kind of shaft they use.

Bottom line...you need to be familiar with YOUR equipment.

Steve
Click to expand...
 
TATE said:
Really, there are very few situations where a "high deflection" shaft is an advantage. The only shots that stand out to me are masse and jump shots. These are more difficult with a shaft like a Predator.
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While I agree that a jump shot is more difficult with a Predator, I found that a masse' shot was easier.


I personally think the advantage of buying a Predator or similar shaft is they tend to have consistent play from shaft to shaft, so once you adjust your game to a Predator getting a new replacement shaft is no big deal.
Click to expand...
For me, if and when I decided to shoot on Friday night banger night, I found the adjustment to a bar stick more difficult when I was shooting with a Predator.

Some players I know at the expert level do not adjust well to a Predator shaft - it hurts their game over time.
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I'm of this camp. There's nobody that can convince me that the Predator or any low deflection shaft actually raised me game. In fact, it lowered mine. And I gave it a fair shake for over a year (so nobody reading this should try to hint that I didn't give it enough time).

The good of it was always that in straight shots, the Predator was my best friend when I was out of stroke. When I am in stroke, I have entirely too many ingrained "feels" that I've never been able to play my top game with anything but a regular shaft. The slower english shots (blended shots, as I call them) makes more sense to my body with a regular shaft.

As always, YMMV. I don't disregard a low squirt shaft, but a regular shaft to my specifications has been my best choice for my best game.

Fred <~~~ documented fair shaker
 
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Squirt can help move the cue ball away from a close edge of a blocking ball, so sometimes you want max squirt. Sure you can compensate to get more squirt with a low deflection shaft, but its easier to not have to compensate as much. With a regular shaft you can stay closer to center, less adjustment needed. I still use a L/D shaft, but I have to agree with Tate and Steve.

The L/D does its job, it squirts less. It cant squirt less and still squirt normally on masse shots. So IMO, it takes more adjustment because it squirts less. You just have to take the good with the bad, or use a different cue for certain masse or jump shots.
 
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vakosel said:
Hi all !

Many times in this forum i have seen people talking about the advantages of low deflection shafts. The supporters of regular shafts swear on the "feel" of their shafts that come with their custom -mostly- cues.

My question: Is there any advantage of having higher deflection? i mean any situation or layout of the balls that would give an easier shot?
I cant judge my question as i am not very experienced . I do try though :wink:

Kostas
Click to expand...
In addition to jump shots....close quarter english shots. This shot looks to have an inherent advantage if the cuestick and cueball depart at different angles to help avoid a double-kiss

But, that's splitting hairs.

Fred
 
Just to emphasize what others (Royce, Dave, etc.) have said: more squirt does not make it easier to execute swerve shots. Just like any shot, these are actually objectively easier to judge with a low-squirt shaft because you aim the CB closer to its actual path. Those who think higher squirt is helpful for these shots are really just expressing their preference for the familiar.

Some owners of higher squirt cues say they make swerve shots easier because they can aim directly at the OB and squirt and swerve will automatically be equal and compensate for each other. But of course squirt and swerve don't automatically compensate for each other with any shaft - these players are really saying that they've become familiar with the speed, butt elevation and tip offset needed to aim some shots that way with that shaft, and they'd have to learn new combinations to make it work with any other shaft, even one with higher squirt.

pj
chgo
 
I find it FAR easier make any shot with a left or right of center hit using a LD shaft. Especially juicy ones. I love the fact that I can slap a LD shaft on a broomstick and runout.

I have heard the argument that some shots readjust automatically with a certain combination of speed, spin and squirt. The same goes for LD shafts. They aren't ND shafts.
 
Dave and Royce.
You are correct. I believe I said that I wasn't sure I could make that same shot with an LD shaft. But then, I have been using the same stock shaft for almost 10 years, so I know exactly what it is going to give me.
For me, it works. I don't believe I would be as confident with an LD shaft. Users of LD shafts would struggle with mine.
I have said on many occasions that one is not necessarily better than the other, but they are very different.
Mine is better for me. I know how to make certain shots using my cue that I wouldn't want to have to attempt with a different cue.
We adapt to our equipment.

Steve
 
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