DELETED POST?!?! Mike Janis & Viking Cue tour????

[Teacherman]

...You don't have to condemn Mike Janis for running a tour where he makes a little money.

Thanks for the response. I have opinions. I state them. I fully understand that this is your show.

However..........

Condemning the Viking Tour would not be my choice of words for what I did and continue to do. Exposing the system, yes. Showing why pool rooms don't benefit, yes. Passion added, yes. But I don't challenge his right to do it. He can do what he wants. So can I.

I asked him questions about his tour that he didn't want to answer. I remember offering to hold one of his events if he paid me $500 up front to do it. Which he first insinuated he would (in fact he said he had done it before) but later said he would only guarantee me a $500 profit. (only after I gave him my financial information; of course when I asked for his it is off limits; proprietary ) There is quite a difference between what I offered and what he proposed since not many pool guarantees are upheld. It's telling when someone won't do what they're selling real hard for you to do. That's the ultimate red flag. Including his own statements about $X being added to his events. When in fact, the prize money is less than the full entry fee + added money. If that is the case should you claim added money??????

I also find it interesting that he expects the room owner to put money up front all for the exchange of product that can be sold, yet he won't do the same.

Sorry to upset everyone. But this is a great example of the herd mentality. The facts are quite different than what is sold, yet the buyers continue to believe the seller.

And so goes pool.........................just like it's always been..............and always will be.

Bottom line is the people don't want it to change. I've got 16 years in the business and another 10 on top of that as a player. And what is obvious is...........To the leaders, protection of their little piece of the pie is more important than expanding the pie. To the followers.....................well you really have to wonder about the followers. I think the answer to the followers is some where in here.

Education %

some college 28 %
bachelor's degree 11 %
high school diploma 14 %
graduate degree 4 %
grammar/middle school 3 %
Unanswered 41 %

 

[azhousepro]

To the leaders, protection of their little piece of the pie is more important than expanding the pie.

In the years I have been a part of the billiards industry I have come to find that this is the absolute best way to describe it.

Mike

 

[nfty9er]

Please forigve me I am not intelligent, according to TM

Age breakdown

Unanswered 38 %


Marital Status %

Unanswered 42 %

Income %

Unanswered 56 %

Education %

Unanswered 41 %

Home Ownership %

Unanswered 48 %

Gender %

Unanswered 37 %



Mj

I would have to say that statistically speaking this set of data would be irrelivant for any sort of decision making. Too much unanswered. And you have to wonder about the validity of the answers. The income ones, plus the gender one. How can you answer income seriously when you can't figure out gender, if your married, graduated HS or have a job?

I wonder if we haven't shot the messenger? (Teacherman) THINK about it, WHAT is said is very valid. If you reread some of the posts by all, like chefjeff said, There is some very interesting food for thought and discussion. Without emotion. I guess I just tend to be more analytical.

Didn't some players raise a ruckus somewhere in a pool tourny in the IL, IN area this past winter?? Just remember hearing something about it. Something to do with adding up the fees, entries, added moneys and not being able to make the math work out.

I would love to have a room that catered to the 'real' pool player, but sadly, I don't think it could exist in the 'pay the light bill, mortgage, help, and repair bill' world. Everytime I run numbers they get red way to fast. Maybe if the lottery ticket comes through. [/QUOTE]

But I am confused. You and RICKw the most recent keep referrihg to the "serious pool player", and the "real" pool player. What is that? How does a pool room owner "cater" to those players. As far as I am concerned if they get a table they pay their time like everyone else. How would I cater to the pool player when I treat them all the same, except the regulars are on a vip list for discounted pool. But of those regulars some are lousy, some good, some excellent and some are pro caliber and they all gamble to some extent. But tell me please what room owners do to cater. How do you seperate them and cater? People keep using that phrase but dont say how they would like to be catered to. There is a diffeence between a player and a loiterer. Loiterers are not allowed. All players practice or play, simple. Of the 20 real players on my list they spend 21,000 a year on practice between noon and 7 p.m. This does not count there food and drink that although may not be a lot is still income. Unless you have a room that has a waiting list all day this money you cannot throw away. Is that the catering your talking about? Please somebody explain.

 

[hustler]

Just a few thoughts and generalizations....(and I hate to generalize)

Rooms that hold these regional tour events should be commended. As far as I can tell they are not getting rich off these events. They have to come up with the added money, pay the td's expenses, pay sanctioning fees, and in some instances kick in a share of the added money for the year end tourney. Its just a lot of expenses to cover when we all know most serious pool players dont eat much, drink water, sit around playing cards, etc. Charge a gate fee and people complain or just stay away. It takes a lot of creativity to recoup these expenditures. I just cant think of too many valid reasons a pool room owner would want to do this. Its admirable that they are putting the players, fans, and the game out ahead of their wallets. I don't buy the argument that the tourney will somehow expose the place, increase its marketablilty, and consequently generate future business. But, that is tough to gauge.

I usually have a few beers at the local weekly tourney I do. I am one of the few(and you dont need two hands to count them) who drinks a few while I play. Then there's the players who dont spend anything and then complain that the room/bar doesn't add any/enough money. It is sad. Rooms do better having leagues and sticking to karaoke. Its the social crowd that spends the money.It is no wonder the room owner I know is getting out.

Some td's need to be commended too..especially the ones who sacrifice so much to put on these events. They truly care about the game. Others, and I can attest to a few, think they are going to make a living out of it or make a quick score and they do so at the expense of the players and the pool room.
I dont mind a td taking a fee but I might have a problem if I finished say 3rd place in a tourney and then realized the td made more than me.

 

[Williebetmore]

I didn't say every one had to agree. I just said to not let the debate break down into name calling because someone doesn't agree with you.Also remember, that this is my forum. . But in the end, the only person I answer to about how I run this site is me.

Mike

Mike,
Just a note on freedom of speech. Teacherman is free to say whatever he wants. We are free to think about him whatever we want. You are free to run the site however you want and ban whomever you want - what a great country.

For my money, AZB is the absolute best site going. Look at the participation from the pro's, the cue makers, and the true fans. It seems to be growing monthly - most recently with the addition of contributions from Earl S., Danny H., and Mike Janis. As a true fan, I just LOVE being able to hear the insights of these people (what other sport or internet site offers this kind of access to the experts??). I certainly hope that anonymous internet trolls will not chase them away. Stating your opinion is one thing, but continuous harangues are another - why would the pro's want to put up with that???

 

[Teacherman]

...but I might have a problem if I finished say 3rd place in a tourney and then realized the td made more than me.

Well well. Maybe I did turn on some light bulbs.

 

[Teacherman]

... why would the pro's want to put up with that???

Or, for that matter, anyone.

But I know that if you don't carry any baggage there is nothing to put up with.

 

[Eric.]

The frightening part is how 37% didn't answer the gender question.

Mj

Hey Phoenix ( ),

I don't usually jump into these pissing matches but I jsut had to throw my two pennies in...

As everybody knows, there are always those that see the down side of everything. Basically, the glass is always half empty. I think all this hubbub about whether or not your Viking tour (or any other tour) has any "value" to the poolroom owner depends entirely on what the roomowner wants to do with his "opportunity". There are some rooms that take the "opportunity" and use it like a tool to promote their room, possibly seek out their own sponsors for the event and make a go out of it, even making a good profit in the process. They realize, being entrepreneurs, that they will incur a certain amount of business risk. They also realize that it isn't a free lunch and will have to work a little more to make it profitable. Like any other business, certain actions cannot be directly tied to immediate profits (you don't always see a direct dollar for dollar return on your investment). Rather, it is a long term prospect. Like any other business, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

So, to make a long post short, ther are those that appreciate your efforts and hope you stay the course. Keep the faith, Mikey.


Eric >off the soapbox

 

[Teacherman]

A great example of the "followers".

It's all we got. Please keep it going. Go sell it for me.

How many times have you "sold" the event by bringing someone new with you?????

 

[Eric.]

A great example of the "followers".

It's all we got. Please keep it going. Go sell it for me.

How many times have you "sold" the event by bringing someone new with you?????

Like I said; ignore the big picture and focus on the glass being half empty.


Eric

 

[Barbara]

Like I said; ignore the big picture and focus on the glass being half empty.


Eric

Eric,

The big picture between MJ and TM is the TD's fee and probably why the TD will score more money than the RO' profit (in the long run) and 3rd highest paid player. One thing I will throw right out is that the men's tournies pay more top heavy than the women's in a regional/local event. But whatever.

TM is a RO that pays out 100% or at least 80% of the prize fund and expects that (I think) from all tours. MJ probably does set a percentage of the total prize fund for his TD fee and the actual money payout for each event differs due to the number of participants and monies added. But the RO should know this up front to be able to explain to anyone who asks. Or else the RO is permanently suspect because of the TD and may lose his rep with his local players or traveling ones.

It's actually an easy calculation if it involves only entry fees, monies added, and greens fees. There must be a separation of membership monies, registration fees, and whatever slingo you want to call cash when the player shows up.

Barbara

 

[azhousepro]

And this is what I have always strived for.

But it is the anonymous trollers and people who don't respect each other who usually force the top pros to label a site as 'just more idiots' and never come back.

I just got a note today about another pro who is interested in being involved in the forums and I will be working with him to get it put together soon.

Mike

Mike,
Just a note on freedom of speech. Teacherman is free to say whatever he wants. We are free to think about him whatever we want. You are free to run the site however you want and ban whomever you want - what a great country.

For my money, AZB is the absolute best site going. Look at the participation from the pro's, the cue makers, and the true fans. It seems to be growing monthly - most recently with the addition of contributions from Earl S., Danny H., and Mike Janis. As a true fan, I just LOVE being able to hear the insights of these people (what other sport or internet site offers this kind of access to the experts??). I certainly hope that anonymous internet trolls will not chase them away. Stating your opinion is one thing, but continuous harangues are another - why would the pro's want to put up with that???

 

[frankncali]

TeacherMan

Okay now that we know where both sides stand I think the next step in the discussion is how to make it better.

I think all would agree that Mike Janis has worked very hard and continues to work hard with his business. He should make money at his venture if he is able to.
I have read the flyers and I would not care as a player that some of the money comes out and goes to him. If its on the flyer and is represented well at the event then players should not complain. He is providing a service.
As for the players auction 10% is fair and is standard.

As for the event itself and for the room I still have a hard time believing that
the room does not make money on the deal. I ahve been to roughly 100 or so
regional size events and most all seem to go well. I was a manager of a pool room and have been in business management for 13 or so years.
I understand the guys that you speak of that just get the water and want a
bottomless pit of soda for a $1. I also know that theres a decent number of guys that will spend money.
If you can get 64 players to your room on a saturday do you not think you
will get a $10 check average for those 64. I think you would or it would be close. I also dont think you would lose 100% of your normal business.
Maybe 50%. So if during that time you usually did $200-300 you might be out
1-2 hundred. After that time period some of the 64 would still be there and
would continue to spend.
I know you would to have an extra person or so on staff but that cost would not be that high. Its not like you would need to bring in -10 people for 64.
I would think maybe 1-2 at most.
This is for the first day and the second day is hard to figure as some places have better turnouts than others. I always liked places that had small events for the people that came back on sunday. Normally these were no money added type deals just to keep busy. Also a way to keep people there
for the second day spending.
Even if you put up the 1k and then lost 150 you have about roughly 1200 involved. I would think you would at least get that much back from the players. If not and you only get 1000 then you now have roughly 2k worth of
merchandise to sell. If you want to sell it fine if not fine. You could use
it for your regulars as give aways. During your weekly leagues and events
have a rando drawing for an item or let the winners pick out an item.
You regulars would be making out and you would have a ton of stuff to give away for only $200 bucks.
I think your smart enough to fiigure out extra things to do at events like T-shirts, hats and food/drink specials to dig a little extra scratch out of the
players.
Maybe you have ideas that would help people like MJ and others that promote pool. I would love to see a day when a sponsor tells MJ that
they will give him 20-30k cash for 20-30 events. That would be great but
for now we dont have that.

As a player that loves the game and wants to be around it more what are some things that would help good rooms like your have events? What are some ways to promote pool in general from a pool room owners perspective?


I think you are dead on the money in alot of your views regarding the pool
community but you are in that community.
I have been to one of your rooms and its nice. I had a good time and liked
many things about it. I wish you all the best in those rooms and if I am in
SL I will stop by.
I believe that you are trying to be "the guy" that gets people thinking and
that tries to bring attention to certain aspects in pool but IMO this time
it was a bit overboard. However if that was your agenda then case close.

I am not sure if you would agree with a previous statement of mine but I do believe that the regular members of this group are the ones that you would like in your room. Maybe thats why theres not as many with you as against.
If you were in an old fashioned room filled with old school players I think
you would find more guys ready to take your words and run with them.
Problem is that next week those guys will be bitching about something new and will have a new agenda in pool to complain about.

Not that it matters but I ahve struggled with a bar owner for about three
weeks about a tournament. Its this weekend and we have 51 players.
He only wants to add $1 per player. So basically I have 51 players in a
6 table bar for a $20 event. Its all locals and its being spread over two days.
He said he could not afford to add any more to it but then tells a few guys
later that the bar should do really well because anytime we have these events his weekend numbers are up. While I dont think he needs to add
a grand I think a hundred or two would be great. It caps at 64 and if it was not for Mothers Day and a league playoff deal we would have a full field.
I did offer him a bet that if he would add $200 that I would name 4 people that would cover that with just drinks. I told him the names and he justed laughed and said no bet. One of those guys will spend $100 each day
and I would bet a lot on that.
Again good luck with your business you have nice ones and from from I gather they do well. Players in your area are lucky to have a nice play to play with reasonable prices.

With this post I am not looking for any arguement but rather some ideas. The
main gist of this thread is done and gone. You dont want an event and
Mike is looking for rooms that do want an event. Now we all know what
are some pros and cons for both sides so what can be dont to help erase some of the cons.
frankncali

 

[Teacherman]

Like I said; ignore the big picture and focus on the glass being half empty.


Eric

Again, when is the last time you sold pool? What is your background at going to businesses and asking for sponsorship? Have you tried to introduce a friend to pool?

I think I know the answers.

And, until you've done it you won't understand that there is no interest among local businesses to sponsor a pool tournament made up of people without money.

Call me half empty.....fine. You are naive and polyana...........and without experience.

Yet you know best.

 

[christyd]

Ok Teacherman.......I just read Frankncali's post and I agree with most of what he said. What do you think?
By the way.......what the hell does polyana mean??

 

[Koop]

Ok Teacherman.......I just read Frankncali's post and I agree with most of what he said. What do you think?
By the way.......what the hell does polyana mean??

Pollyanna - a person who is foolish or blindly optimistic.

Nice pic btw,

Dave

 

[nfty9er]

Tournaments

Okay now that we know where both sides stand I think the next step in the discussion is how to make it better.

I think all would agree that Mike Janis has worked very hard and continues to work hard with his business. He should make money at his venture if he is able to.
I have read the flyers and I would not care as a player that some of the money comes out and goes to him. If its on the flyer and is represented well at the event then players should not complain. He is providing a service.
As for the players auction 10% is fair and is standard.

As for the event itself and for the room I still have a hard time believing that
the room does not make money on the deal. I ahve been to roughly 100 or so
regional size events and most all seem to go well. I was a manager of a pool room and have been in business management for 13 or so years.
I understand the guys that you speak of that just get the water and want a
bottomless pit of soda for a $1. I also know that theres a decent number of guys that will spend money.
If you can get 64 players to your room on a saturday do you not think you
will get a $10 check average for those 64. I think you would or it would be close. I also dont think you would lose 100% of your normal business.
Maybe 50%. So if during that time you usually did $200-300 you might be out
1-2 hundred. After that time period some of the 64 would still be there and
would continue to spend.
I know you would to have an extra person or so on staff but that cost would not be that high. Its not like you would need to bring in -10 people for 64.
I would think maybe 1-2 at most.
This is for the first day and the second day is hard to figure as some places have better turnouts than others. I always liked places that had small events for the people that came back on sunday. Normally these were no money added type deals just to keep busy. Also a way to keep people there
for the second day spending.
Even if you put up the 1k and then lost 150 you have about roughly 1200 involved. I would think you would at least get that much back from the players. If not and you only get 1000 then you now have roughly 2k worth of
merchandise to sell. If you want to sell it fine if not fine. You could use
it for your regulars as give aways. During your weekly leagues and events
have a rando drawing for an item or let the winners pick out an item.
You regulars would be making out and you would have a ton of stuff to give away for only $200 bucks.
I think your smart enough to fiigure out extra things to do at events like T-shirts, hats and food/drink specials to dig a little extra scratch out of the
players.
Maybe you have ideas that would help people like MJ and others that promote pool. I would love to see a day when a sponsor tells MJ that
they will give him 20-30k cash for 20-30 events. That would be great but
for now we dont have that.

As a player that loves the game and wants to be around it more what are some things that would help good rooms like your have events? What are some ways to promote pool in general from a pool room owners perspective?


I think you are dead on the money in alot of your views regarding the pool
community but you are in that community.
I have been to one of your rooms and its nice. I had a good time and liked
many things about it. I wish you all the best in those rooms and if I am in
SL I will stop by.
I believe that you are trying to be "the guy" that gets people thinking and
that tries to bring attention to certain aspects in pool but IMO this time
it was a bit overboard. However if that was your agenda then case close.

I am not sure if you would agree with a previous statement of mine but I do believe that the regular members of this group are the ones that you would like in your room. Maybe thats why theres not as many with you as against.
If you were in an old fashioned room filled with old school players I think
you would find more guys ready to take your words and run with them.
Problem is that next week those guys will be bitching about something new and will have a new agenda in pool to complain about.

Not that it matters but I ahve struggled with a bar owner for about three
weeks about a tournament. Its this weekend and we have 51 players.
He only wants to add $1 per player. So basically I have 51 players in a
6 table bar for a $20 event. Its all locals and its being spread over two days.
He said he could not afford to add any more to it but then tells a few guys
later that the bar should do really well because anytime we have these events his weekend numbers are up. While I dont think he needs to add
a grand I think a hundred or two would be great. It caps at 64 and if it was not for Mothers Day and a league playoff deal we would have a full field.
I did offer him a bet that if he would add $200 that I would name 4 people that would cover that with just drinks. I told him the names and he justed laughed and said no bet. One of those guys will spend $100 each day
and I would bet a lot on that.
Again good luck with your business you have nice ones and from from I gather they do well. Players in your area are lucky to have a nice play to play with reasonable prices.

With this post I am not looking for any arguement but rather some ideas. The
main gist of this thread is done and gone. You dont want an event and
Mike is looking for rooms that do want an event. Now we all know what
are some pros and cons for both sides so what can be dont to help erase some of the cons.
frankncali

If you havent please read my post on page 4 of this thread. As far as I am concerned it blows away any arguement against a tournament. But your post reminded me also of the shirts I sold over the weekend of the tour and the few business sponsors I did get that contributed and the beer company that provided discounted beer and deals. I made money, gauranteed and in 25 years of tournaments I have in the long run never lost any. Thanks

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

I wonder if we haven't shot the messenger? (Teacherman) THINK about it, WHAT is said is very valid. If you reread some of the posts by all, like chefjeff said, There is some very interesting food for thought and discussion. Without emotion. I guess I just tend to be more analytical.

Didn't some players raise a ruckus somewhere in a pool tourny in the IL, IN area this past winter?? Just remember hearing something about it. Something to do with adding up the fees, entries, added moneys and not being able to make the math work out.

I would love to have a room that catered to the 'real' pool player, but sadly, I don't think it could exist in the 'pay the light bill, mortgage, help, and repair bill' world. Everytime I run numbers they get red way to fast. Maybe if the lottery ticket comes through.

Ah yes, the numbers. Those telling, reality-exposing numbers. Ow, they hurt, don't they?

Emotions and Reason...

To anyone who is emotionally upset about this thread, recognize that this negative emotion is a warning sign that something is wrong. This emotion should not be repressed, but instead questioned. For example: Why the feelings in me? What do they tell? What is it that is wrong? Am I being honest with myself?

Asking questions of emotions leads one to reason. Reason leads one to better understanding. Understanding leads to better control. Better control leads to happier living.

But---and this is important,--- "reasoning" based on emotions can be harmful and downright dangerous to one's well being. If one makes, for example, judgments and conclusions about the value of TM's business practices because one is emotionally upset by TM's style of posting, then errors will be made and negative consequences will result.

Even TM's posting style per se can be seen to hold value by questioning why one gets upset by it. TM has produced more VIEWS (3700 +) and therefore gotten his message to more eyes than if he had not used the style he did. OK, get upset by the style, but then understand why, through reason, how the process worked...don't run away from the feeling, ignore it, or repress it. Simply question your feelings and then begin to understand ALL the truly remarkable values that this thread gives us.

AZ rocks!

Jeff Livingston

 

[Teacherman]

Ok Teacherman.......I just read Frankncali's post and I agree with most of what he said. What do you think?
By the way.......what the hell does polyana mean??

You rook mahvelous

 

[Teacherman]

FranknCali

You've always been fair with me. Your ideas are good. I've been there, tried them. They don't add up.

The afternoon format makes the event attractive and doable. But why do I have to sell the merchandise to hold the event? I'm the one that put up the money. Can't someone else do the labor? Why not the td? Why not the players? Better yet, read my previous post about the sponsors all throwing in $50 per week instead of giving merchandise. They would have a $200 committment each month instead of merchandise. This would give $2000 added to each tment. I can get close enough to even on quarters. Everyone can win.

But, the answer is the TD won't win big enough. The guy with no overhead and few demands on him wants to get more than his share. After all, what does he have in it except a following?