I wasn't comparing Bautista to Searing, but to the Vigus cue.
Although for my money, I'd pick Bautista over the rest. $400 for a nicely finished cue vs $4,000... hmmmm.
Dennis Searing
- Thread starter riedmich
- Start date
I wasn't comparing Bautista to Searing, but to the Vigus cue.
Although for my money, I'd pick Bautista over the rest. $400 for a nicely finished cue vs $4,000... hmmmm.
That's a different kind of comparison, and one that I would likely agree with.
-roger
Okay so I guess I've had a REALLY lucky experience so far.
I'm fairly off on Dennis's list but I've gotten a reply within a day or less EVERY time I've emailed him and I'm YEEEEEEEAAAARRRRRSSSSSS off of getting a cue.
I get a reply every time.
BUT I've also stated that I want my name put on my cue visibly as I don't intend on selling it, and I do intend on playing with every cue I have made and made that intention clear.
From what I've heard Dennis prefers making cues for those who he knows will play with them. So I don't know what to say here.
But as Justin said, from my limited experience so far with cues I'll take my Keith Hanssen over any other cue I've used as far as a player goes.
Keith is also FANTASTIC with customer service and has a fantastic production rate for the quality of work you'll get, especially considering he doesn't use cnc/pantographs.
I'm fairly off on Dennis's list but I've gotten a reply within a day or less EVERY time I've emailed him and I'm YEEEEEEEAAAARRRRRSSSSSS off of getting a cue.
I get a reply every time.
BUT I've also stated that I want my name put on my cue visibly as I don't intend on selling it, and I do intend on playing with every cue I have made and made that intention clear.
From what I've heard Dennis prefers making cues for those who he knows will play with them. So I don't know what to say here.
But as Justin said, from my limited experience so far with cues I'll take my Keith Hanssen over any other cue I've used as far as a player goes.
Keith is also FANTASTIC with customer service and has a fantastic production rate for the quality of work you'll get, especially considering he doesn't use cnc/pantographs.
Be honest and Lie to him.:killingme::killingme:
Why do Dennis Searing cues cost as much as they do?
Well, it starts with what Dennis asks for the cues himself which is a fair
price for the quality of work he delivers.
After that the secondary market takes over. The number of people that would like
to own a Searing is way larger then the number of cues available, so the price goes up until
demand and supply level out. Same goes for, say, a Ferrari 250 GTO.
They did not cost $ 5 million (or whatever) when they were made but the number of cars is limited
and people will pay this to own them.
So let's say you just got a cue from Dennis and paid $2000 for it, I have no doubt
you could sell that cue today for at least $4000 and probably considerably more.
There is no doubt (I have been to Dennis' shop) that he is extremely meticulous about every
aspect of cue building and tries to push the envelope where ever he can.
His seamless veneers are a nice example of that.
Does this mean you will like the way they play? Nope. It does mean they are put
together as well as or better then any other cue available.
gr. Dave
Well, it starts with what Dennis asks for the cues himself which is a fair
price for the quality of work he delivers.
After that the secondary market takes over. The number of people that would like
to own a Searing is way larger then the number of cues available, so the price goes up until
demand and supply level out. Same goes for, say, a Ferrari 250 GTO.
They did not cost $ 5 million (or whatever) when they were made but the number of cars is limited
and people will pay this to own them.
So let's say you just got a cue from Dennis and paid $2000 for it, I have no doubt
you could sell that cue today for at least $4000 and probably considerably more.
There is no doubt (I have been to Dennis' shop) that he is extremely meticulous about every
aspect of cue building and tries to push the envelope where ever he can.
His seamless veneers are a nice example of that.
Does this mean you will like the way they play? Nope. It does mean they are put
together as well as or better then any other cue available.
gr. Dave
This is a great post.
There really is no need to compare one maker to another. All of the criteria is subjective. It also says a lot about someone's character when they need to disparage one makers work over another.
I'm glad I was raised better than that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What is wrong with you lol? I will bet you a $1000 that I will like how a Searing cue hits and looks vs a Schon and I have owned several Schons in my day. See how silly that subjective thingy sounds?
I also agree with the other poster with not dragging Larry into this.
I see NO problems with comparing cue builders what so ever.
I do see a problem with saying this guy builds shitty cues vs. that guy.
Every cue builder in the world thinks his stuff plays the best, and in private most will tell you that. Simply comparing different techniques of build, price, wait times, and playability is just fine by me. It seems like this only people that get up in arms about it are guys that are paying several thousands, and waiting several YEARS to have a cue built.
I like the idea proposed by deanoc, though I think Schone would lose miserably. I have yet to play one I really like. I don't think he represented Larry poorly either. We all know Larry didn't post this, and that deanoc is just passionate about this said cue.
Bench racing a few builders on what they build, is like talking about how two players would match up. Atleast that's how I take it. It's all in good fun. Half the people that read what I type think I'm crazy or an A-hole, or both... the other half is split by people that agree with half of what I say, etc.
Were all here to have fun and trade ideas, if you get but hurt by any of the above posts, then your not utilizing the forum to it full potential. If you disagree with what I've said, let me know! We can be civilized and still have a spirited debate!
That IMO is what we are all here for.
(Also, I know full well what goes into building several different types of cues, and would never put down something some one else has built. No matter the technique or equipment used, it's still VERY hard work to build ANY cue.)
best,
Justin
I do see a problem with saying this guy builds shitty cues vs. that guy.
Every cue builder in the world thinks his stuff plays the best, and in private most will tell you that. Simply comparing different techniques of build, price, wait times, and playability is just fine by me. It seems like this only people that get up in arms about it are guys that are paying several thousands, and waiting several YEARS to have a cue built.
I like the idea proposed by deanoc, though I think Schone would lose miserably. I have yet to play one I really like. I don't think he represented Larry poorly either. We all know Larry didn't post this, and that deanoc is just passionate about this said cue.
Bench racing a few builders on what they build, is like talking about how two players would match up. Atleast that's how I take it. It's all in good fun. Half the people that read what I type think I'm crazy or an A-hole, or both... the other half is split by people that agree with half of what I say, etc.
Were all here to have fun and trade ideas, if you get but hurt by any of the above posts, then your not utilizing the forum to it full potential. If you disagree with what I've said, let me know! We can be civilized and still have a spirited debate!
That IMO is what we are all here for.
(Also, I know full well what goes into building several different types of cues, and would never put down something some one else has built. No matter the technique or equipment used, it's still VERY hard work to build ANY cue.)
best,
Justin
Last edited:
Yes it does sound stupid
The difference in what you said and what I offered is this
I offered to bet $1000 that schon cues would win a blind test
if someone would develop a way to test the hit of the schon versus the searing
Searing has a reputation of being a good playing cue,I have not said they don't play good,I think schons play better and would be willing to bet that any reasonable test would prove it
What you said is that you are willing to bet that you don't think so.You would not be a fair judge.
I understand there have been test of this sort conducted in the past
If I offered to be on Scott Frost against Alex next time,would this imply that
Alex was a bad player?
In my opinion Schon would win any fair hitting contest and I would like to bet on it.
Remember fellas this is my offer not schons or Larry just Dean
The difference in what you said and what I offered is this
I offered to bet $1000 that schon cues would win a blind test
if someone would develop a way to test the hit of the schon versus the searing
Searing has a reputation of being a good playing cue,I have not said they don't play good,I think schons play better and would be willing to bet that any reasonable test would prove it
What you said is that you are willing to bet that you don't think so.You would not be a fair judge.
I understand there have been test of this sort conducted in the past
If I offered to be on Scott Frost against Alex next time,would this imply that
Alex was a bad player?
In my opinion Schon would win any fair hitting contest and I would like to bet on it.
Remember fellas this is my offer not schons or Larry just Dean
Last edited:
If you read back into his first comments, it's clear what's wrong. Dennis hasn't built his cue and he is butt hurt about it. You seemed to like his cues in this thread. See Post 84. This is really about money isn't it? If Dennis sent you a cue tomorrow, what would you do with it deano? You would probably flip it. You wouldn't complain about the high prices then would you?
You just don't get it do you?
Let's say I grab 10 people to test hit both and say 6 like the Searing better...does that mean I win?
Ok...how about I grab another 10 people afterwards and this time 6 people like the Schon better....does that mean we tie?
It's subjective and for a true sample size you would have to have a ton of people test hit both...not like 5-10 lol. Here let's pass a $5k Searing around through 10,000 AZ members and use that for a sample size lol.
Let's say I grab 10 people to test hit both and say 6 like the Searing better...does that mean I win?
Ok...how about I grab another 10 people afterwards and this time 6 people like the Schon better....does that mean we tie?
It's subjective and for a true sample size you would have to have a ton of people test hit both...not like 5-10 lol. Here let's pass a $5k Searing around through 10,000 AZ members and use that for a sample size lol.
Thanks Woof, missed that, didn't know he was butthurt...it explains it better!
.......................................
Maybe you should change your avitar from the Arthur cue to this,you will get about the same ROI from it as a Bautista:wink:
Maybe you should change your avitar from the Arthur cue to this,you will get about the same ROI from it as a Bautista:wink:
I never bought a cue with the thought of how much I could sell it for later. I actually get my cues to play with, I don't have a 20 case 50 cue collection which I then sell when I see something shiny, I have one case which is used to take my one playing cue to the pool hall and back, and I have one extra cue, a Joss Limited that I bought 20 years ago that was my player for 10+ years. The reason I even have that one is because Boston Billiards messed up on the price on it and put it down for $190 instead of the $500 retail it had. Heck, I don't even own a break or a jump cue, and my case is a chap vinyl $100 case I won in a raffle on here a while back.
I actually don't own that Arthur anymore, although a great maker and a great cue, I did not like the ivory joint and ferrule. I have a Ned Morris now and it's been the best feeling hit of just about any cue I have tried. I traded that Arthur plus some cash for the Ned Morris, and I got the Arthur in a trade for some computer equipment. Just too lazy to change my pic LOL.
I do have to say that is a great looking plunger though! And no offense meant to anyone that does have that 20 case 50 cue collection, it's no different than anything else people pick up, rare china dishes, stamps. I collect tickets and ride stubs from trips I take with the kids, my son's first movie in a theater, things like that.
Last edited:
Interesting statement. The sad truth is, some guys DO build shitty cues, and I don't have a problem with someone pointing this out.
More prevalent, however, are guys who own mediocre cues telling the world they own the greatest cue ever built. Then getting offended when told that their cue is mediocre, or that the value is significantly less than they paid for, etc, etc. That's when everyone wants to be particularly subjective, and moreover, demand everyone else to be relativistic about their mediocre cues as well.
-roger
Deano, I have a proposition on your bet. Dennis loves to play. You guys should bet the $1K as you describe in the blind cue test. Then bet the same $1K in a race to 21. He plays with his cue and you play with your Schon. The worst you could do is break even, right? I think he would answer your call if he knew this is what you were calling about.
the same ROI from it as a Bautista:wink:
I see comments about such things quite often which fly in the face of the facts.
The higher end market is much more volatile and much more subject to fluctuations than many people would like to admit.
Cues such as a Bautista are actually pretty strong on ROI when compared to the higher end market as a whole. Only specific makers are an exception to that, and even they are not entirely protected.
An example: We saw a warped Southwest, in fact the butt was seriously warped. It wasn't very old either. Quite easy to tell and all of the conversations about it being hard to tell because of the parabolic taper are silly and absolute BS. Yes, they are made of wood and can warp. What happened to the value of that cue? You can guess.
On the low end even many of the production cues are stronger in retaining and even gaining value. The same can be said of lower end customs. They may not gain value but they can be on average really great inflation fighters by actually retaining value more reliably than many of the higher end customs.
We see this quite openly in the market right now. It is very obvious. Although many of those who are trying to sell their higher end customs don't like it and will behave and comment in quite elitist ways abouit it, the fact is that it is an obvious truth.
Cues like Searing, Black Boar, Southwest, etc are obviously strong on ROI. But even they are also occupying a more volatile end of the market and we see their owners/sellers bemoaning the reality of the situation every day.
Some of my own toilet plungers are RELIABLY worth 200-400% of their original value. That's amazing really. Some of them are only worth about 100% (even when adjusting for inflation). I can't think of any of them that actually are worth less than the original price. That's pretty remarkable I think, especially for a low end piece of wood that is scoffed at by those who can afford "better". When considering the fact that such cues can be had for pennies on the dollar just by casually looking for them, the entire issue of ROI is much more in favor of such toilet plungers than any high end cue.
I know what a good cue is. I really do. I happen to have a number of them that don't fit that description that actually are more profitable than many "good" cues. I could sell them off and buy some elite named cues but I wouldn't be happy with that. I enjoy my "toys". I may be crazy, but in view of the above undeniable facts about the market and ROI, I may just be crazy like a fox. :wink::grin-square:
Lastly I will add that speaking of cues as an investment is folly. Buy them because it is fun, because you enjoy it. If you want to invest, it is generally better to look elsewhere unless you can predict (specualtion) who the next Balabushka et al will be, and you have the money to risk. There are much better markets to deal in for investment.
.
.
.
.
This is silly and a little bit sad.
Searing is an artist not a business man. Nobody buys his cues because of his business sense or marketing genius. Those that can get his cues get them because they are unmatched in precision and performance and innovation. Art.
Searing cues go for big bucks because of supply and demand. Dennis doesn't charge big bucks for his cues. Much like Barry, he charges a price so reasonable that a flipper can turn right around from their delivery and double their investment. That is due to the demand for their product, and as silly as people are willing to be here I don't think anyone is silly enough to believe that the demand that causes this is due to either Dennis or Barry "hyping" their product.
Poor business models? Yup. Does Dennis care? Nope. He, like Barry, is into the ART of cue building, not the business. Both of them have waiting lists longer than they will ever come close to filling. Both hand cues to people and watch them double their money with no value added other than they have one available. Both could immediately double their prices, and even if half the people fell off their list, would still have a lifetime of buyers left and be making exactly double what they are now.
Not doing that is a bad business decision and neither of them care. Dennis Searing is not in the business of building cues. He sees what he does as an art.
I think there was a Pope very upset with Michelangelo's schedule in painting the Sistine Chapel. Anybody think those millions of people craning their necks every year to look at the paintings give a rat's ass about the Pope and his anger at the artist? Its the art that survives.
Trust me if Searing's interest was taking your money he would be extremely good at it. If that was what he wanted, he'd have a pristine and precise business model created solely by his hand in ways that look much like everybody elses' business model, but are totally unique to Dennis. All you'd have to do is think about ordering a cue and your money would be in his account. However, that is not his interest, building cues HIS WAY is.
If you want a Searing and don't want to pay double what Dennis charges then you have to deal with Dennis's poor business practices. Want a cue delivered on time, go to Schon or buy a Mezz off the rack, both play great.
Thanks
Kevin
Searing is an artist not a business man. Nobody buys his cues because of his business sense or marketing genius. Those that can get his cues get them because they are unmatched in precision and performance and innovation. Art.
Searing cues go for big bucks because of supply and demand. Dennis doesn't charge big bucks for his cues. Much like Barry, he charges a price so reasonable that a flipper can turn right around from their delivery and double their investment. That is due to the demand for their product, and as silly as people are willing to be here I don't think anyone is silly enough to believe that the demand that causes this is due to either Dennis or Barry "hyping" their product.
Poor business models? Yup. Does Dennis care? Nope. He, like Barry, is into the ART of cue building, not the business. Both of them have waiting lists longer than they will ever come close to filling. Both hand cues to people and watch them double their money with no value added other than they have one available. Both could immediately double their prices, and even if half the people fell off their list, would still have a lifetime of buyers left and be making exactly double what they are now.
Not doing that is a bad business decision and neither of them care. Dennis Searing is not in the business of building cues. He sees what he does as an art.
I think there was a Pope very upset with Michelangelo's schedule in painting the Sistine Chapel. Anybody think those millions of people craning their necks every year to look at the paintings give a rat's ass about the Pope and his anger at the artist? Its the art that survives.
Trust me if Searing's interest was taking your money he would be extremely good at it. If that was what he wanted, he'd have a pristine and precise business model created solely by his hand in ways that look much like everybody elses' business model, but are totally unique to Dennis. All you'd have to do is think about ordering a cue and your money would be in his account. However, that is not his interest, building cues HIS WAY is.
If you want a Searing and don't want to pay double what Dennis charges then you have to deal with Dennis's poor business practices. Want a cue delivered on time, go to Schon or buy a Mezz off the rack, both play great.
Thanks
Kevin
Last edited: