Derby 9ball rack mechanics

CJ Wiley said:
I would like to see the rules changed where there's a MANDATORY roll out after the break. This would make the game much more skillful and stop any and all the "Usual Suspects". ;) ...
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CJ -- What do you think of Paul Schofield's "No Conflict Rules," which include a random racking process and having the breaker shoot after a legal break regardless of whether a ball is made on the break? Here are the rules: http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/no-conflict-rules/

As to the mandatory push-out idea, Pat Fleming has been using a form of that in some of his recent events.
 
Let's not make the break{and rack} more important than the rest of the game combined

AtLarge said:
CJ -- What do you think of Paul Schofield's "No Conflict Rules," which include a random racking process and having the breaker shoot after a legal break regardless of whether a ball is made on the break? Here are the rules: http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/no-conflict-rules/

As to the mandatory push-out idea, Pat Fleming has been using a form of that in some of his recent events.
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If you want my honest opinion then here it is:

I DO NOT like "rack running contests". In all my years of playing one thing is clear, the true beauty and skill of the rotation games is not in running racks, it's in out-maneuvering your opponent for the shot and then running out. This brings out strategies and "two way shots" that you rarely get to see these days. Anyone from the "old school" will agree with these points.

I grew up playing Roll Out rules and you got ball in hand in "the kitchen" if your opponent scratched on the break. One foul was created to stop Buddy Hall, Sigel and Strickland from dominating and it did speed up the game for TV (but this was not the main reason). We don't have TV right now and we NEED dominant players. One foul is a watered down version of 9 Ball and that's just a fact. At the very least there should be a roll out mandatory after the break and you would see MUCH better pool, I assure everyone of that.

Again, if you don't believe me just ask someone like Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland or Rodney Morris that's been around since the Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel days and see what they say. One foul with the magic rack is comparable to a carnival game where you win a stuffed animal after running 5 racks.:rolleyes:

I played in the Texas State Championships and two players ran over 8 racks and the top 5 players weren't even there. I didn't have any desire to play that way again, the corner ball went every time and the rest is just a "rack running contest".....this is no better than pro golfers playing par 3 courses. Pocket Billiards is an awesome game, and the way it's played today makes it 50% of what it should be.

If someone is worried about slowing the game down, then play races to 7 with the mandatory roll out after the break - matches will go faster (than races to 11), and the skill level will climb much higher. The only ones that won't like these rules are the weaker players because they may never win a match against the true champion players.

This is how sports grow stronger, not by equalizing the field, by giving the cream the ability to rise to the top. This is {sports} capitalism, remember, the "battle cry" of {sports} socialism is "let's keep everyone the same" (and equalize the field). There's no bigger equalizer in pool than to make the break{and rack} more important than the rest of the game combined.

This will make everyone start practicing more than just the break and rack, and will bring back the "heart and soul" of the Game for everyone to witness. The Game must evolve to gain in popularity again. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
Over the last years the guys, who worked brutally hard on their break lost all the advantage. The *old* rules had been good. Referees are a must at the table for racking, too.

Nowadays there is just one difference- whe have many many more top-players. Where everyone can beat everyone. That s a big point. And in my opinion they should just make the races longer. And then the "Top 5 or Top 10" will win also more than the other *also strong guys*.

This non-stop-changing of rules and discussions about it are so laughable. One break/rack rule for all- that s it. And in big money tournaments: referee racks and the players have to shutup.
Basta
 
Maniac said:
There's a solution from a man who definitely thinks "outside of the box".

It's a step in the right direction. I like it (at least in a tornament format).

Maniac
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Not for nothing but this is an idea that's been around for a while. But It hasnt been executed much. however, they had a mini exhibition tournament this year at the Derby with a mandatory push out (8-man, single game DE) to try it out as well as see about having a bit of game show atmosphere.

Unfortunately, once you see it in action you see its flaws immediately. Whoever pushes out needs to make it a 50/50 proposition or else he has the bad end every time.

In this particular format if you don't make a ball on the break, should the incoming player have the disadvantage to be required to push.

If on a dry break we have the rule that the incoming player has the option to push or let the breaker push, then the breaker will always be at the disadvantage.

In other words, every obvious solution has its own issues.

Freddie <~~~ has his own issues
 
CJ Wiley said:
If you want my honest opinion then here it is:...

I grew up playing Roll Out rules .... One foul is a watered down version of 9 Ball and that's just a fact.

(ed: with roll out rules)...you would see MUCH better pool, I assure everyone of that... The only ones that won't like these rules are the weaker players because they may never win a match against the true champion players.

CJ Wiley
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Big events? ref racks with template.

I am not going to get too deep into it, but i think any rule change that discourages a large group of participants is a huge mistake.

I also think roll-out pool is the stupidest thing ever. Is there any other game where an incoming player can change his lie without penalty? No...hmmm, wonder why?:boring::deadhorse:

Bi
 
Obviously the rotation games have problems in the racking department, and obviously, there is no simple solution that will please everyone or one that can't/won't be manipulated.

Maniac (old school like C.J.)
 
CJ Wiley said:
If you want my honest opinion then here it is:

I DO NOT like "rack running contests". In all my years of playing one thing is clear, the true beauty and skill of the rotation games is not in running racks, it's in out-maneuvering your opponent for the shot and then running out. This brings out strategies and "two way shots" that you rarely get to see these days. Anyone from the "old school" will agree with these points.

I grew up playing Roll Out rules and you got ball in hand in "the kitchen" if your opponent scratched on the break. One foul was created to stop Buddy Hall, Sigel and Strickland from dominating and it did speed up the game for TV (but this was not the main reason). We don't have TV right now and we NEED dominant players. One foul is a watered down version of 9 Ball and that's just a fact. At the very least there should be a roll out mandatory after the break and you would see MUCH better pool, I assure everyone of that.
.......... 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
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Love this Post... and if you really want to get brutal ... here we go...

1. Roll out at any time ...
2. Ball in hand in the kitchen after on the break fouls
3. Call the pocket (not the shot)
4. All illegally pocketed balls spot through out the game...
5. AND.... loser breaks....

There are maybe 4 or 5 guys on the planet that will win big field tourneys under these rules and the rest will be in for a shock on how far behind they really are... IMHO

Express rules are great in local tournaments were player skill is so low vs. the pro level
 
Ive been watching last years all Japan Championship, they have a rack that stays on the table like cloth. Looks like it works well. Here is a proposal. Use that type of stay on table rack. 10 Ball. Neutral (ref/model) to rack. make the races like Tennis. Best of out 5 sets. Races to 7. But you have to win by 2 games. Tennis players can run around for 4 hours for the sport they love, and the fans love watching it. Its beyond me why billiard races are so short.
 
Maniac said:
Obviously the rotation games have problems in the racking department, and obviously, there is no simple solution that will please everyone or one that can't/won't be manipulated.

Maniac (old school like C.J.)
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I can say definitively and from experience: Play the No Conflict Rules and everyone will be pleased (even C.J.). C.J. needs to play with the rules to know what they mean. He does not know. Pushout after the break is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is just awful. I tried it and tried to sell it. Nobody wants to do that. Everybody wants to shoot after the break, even when a ball fails to find a pocket.

The cheating and fighting has got to stop. Shoot what you break. It's that simple.

Please tell me how the No Conflict Rules can be manipulated?
 
1. Rack 9 balls like usual.

2. Rack the other 6 balls (10-15) around the rack, so now you have a full rack.

3. Breaker breaks the balls, but only gets to keep shooting if he makes the 1-9 (9 gets spotted if made on the break).

4. Call pocket.

5. If the 10-15 is made at any point, it gets spotted.

6. #5 rule also applies to the 1-9 if made in the wrong pocket.

7. All fouls result in BIH behind the line, and if the lowest numbered ball is behind the line, it also gets spotted.

Obviously the game would be a little slower, but I don't think that matters since it's not like pool is on TV anyways. I think with the 6 extra balls, and BIH behind the line it would make the game more difficult and you would see the better player win more often.

Just a theory.
 
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These suggestions I'm making is for professional tournaments

double post
 
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Baxter said:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what you're referring to. I believe that the only issue that comes with the magic rack is pattern racking, which can be done no matter what kind of rack is being used.
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What he's referring to is that Shane playing 10 ball with the magic rack is a joke because he has the break down so good....
 
These suggestions I'm making is for professional tournaments

Maniac said:
Obviously the rotation games have problems in the racking department, and obviously, there is no simple solution that will please everyone or one that can't/won't be manipulated.

Maniac (old school like C.J.)
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Yes, the question that's key is: "How important (relative to the rest of the game) do we need to make the break?"

Another option that's exciting is that the player AT the table can push out or require his opponent to push out. Then, the player that takes the shot MUST make it or it's "Ball in hand" behind the head string.

Two fouls by the SAME person is essential as well. This makes the break important to keep possetion of the table, but keeps it at 20% (in level of importance), instead of 70% (which has made the game today very watered down unless you like seeing break/rack contests).

These suggestions I'm making is for professional tournaments, I'm not concerned with amateur tournaments, there are many people more qualified than me to make those suggestions and recommendations. The main point is to stop the "rack running contests" they are calling Pro Pool today with the fast cloth, and super sonic break/jump cues, that reduce the quality of play.

These things have naturally evolved for equipment sales, not for maintaining the integrity of the game. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. :eek:
rman13987l.jpg
My only interest is in promoting and showcasing the Game in the best way possible. 'The Game is the Teacher' :thumbup:

I do believe this would be a great change for pro tournaments where we're always more interested in quality, rather than quantity of players. I'm also talking in terms of funding the tournaments in ways other than entry fees, however, that's a different topic, for a different discussion.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Another option that's exciting is that the player AT the table can push out or require his opponent to push out. Then, the player that takes the shot MUST make it or it's "Ball in hand" behind the head string.

Two fouls by the SAME person is essential as well. This makes the break important to keep possetion of the table, but keeps it at 20% (in level of importance), instead of 70% (which has made the game today very watered down unless you like seeing break/rack contests).
Click to expand...

Have you run an event with these rules? We don't get to decide what will work. The players and the spectators will let us all know quick enough. They will show up or they will stay away. You go for it. Our industry needs more risk takers.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
If you want my honest opinion then here it is:

I DO NOT like "rack running contests". In all my years of playing one thing is clear, the true beauty and skill of the rotation games is not in running racks, it's in out-maneuvering your opponent for the shot and then running out. This brings out strategies and "two way shots" that you rarely get to see these days. Anyone from the "old school" will agree with these points.

I grew up playing Roll Out rules and you got ball in hand in "the kitchen" if your opponent scratched on the break. One foul was created to stop Buddy Hall, Sigel and Strickland from dominating and it did speed up the game for TV (but this was not the main reason). We don't have TV right now and we NEED dominant players. One foul is a watered down version of 9 Ball and that's just a fact. At the very least there should be a roll out mandatory after the break and you would see MUCH better pool, I assure everyone of that.

Again, if you don't believe me just ask someone like Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland or Rodney Morris that's been around since the Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel days and see what they say. One foul with the magic rack is comparable to a carnival game where you win a stuffed animal after running 5 racks.:rolleyes:

I played in the Texas State Championships and two players ran over 8 racks and the top 5 players weren't even there. I didn't have any desire to play that way again, the corner ball went every time and the rest is just a "rack running contest".....this is no better than pro golfers playing par 3 courses. Pocket Billiards is an awesome game, and the way it's played today makes it 50% of what it should be.

If someone is worried about slowing the game down, then play races to 7 with the mandatory roll out after the break - matches will go faster (than races to 11), and the skill level will climb much higher. The only ones that won't like these rules are the weaker players because they may never win a match against the true champion players.

This is how sports grow stronger, not by equalizing the field, by giving the cream the ability to rise to the top. This is {sports} capitalism, remember, the "battle cry" of {sports} socialism is "let's keep everyone the same" (and equalize the field). There's no bigger equalizer in pool than to make the break{and rack} more important than the rest of the game combined.

This will make everyone start practicing more than just the break and rack, and will bring back the "heart and soul" of the Game for everyone to witness. The Game must evolve to gain in popularity again. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
Click to expand...

I have made similar statements to folks in OKC. None will hear of it. They have never played this format for any length of time and do not understand how much of a better game it is. But they will spew about how they enjoy one pocket because it takes more strategy to play.

Go figure...

Closed mindedness prevails...

Nothing to see here, move along folks

Ken
 
There are spectators these days at events? hmmm, well..I guess you could say that....

Double Post Day it appears ;)
 
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There are spectators these days at events? hmmm, well..I guess you could say that....

Paul Schofield said:
Have you run an event with these rules? We don't get to decide what will work. The players and the spectators will let us all know quick enough. They will show up or they will stay away. You go for it. Our industry needs more risk takers.
Click to expand...

Spectators? You mean there are spectators these days at events? Is that what you call the 40 people yawning in the background. :eek: I'm kidding, but really, did you see what was going on in the early to mid 90s???

We had days 800 people came through the door at our events in Dallas. We had TV COVERAGE and promoted it with press releases, print ads, TV commercials, and Professional Player Presence at the pool rooms around the city. CLICK HERE TO SEE PROOF OF WHAT I'M SAYING :thumbup:

Is this done in this day and age? That's why there's no spectators, the rules don't really effect this even though they certainly do need to be addressed.

It's not a deep, dark mystery why pool has cycled down so much in the last 15 years. It's all about PROMOTION and the motion it takes to create it.....True Sports Popularity will never happen "by accident" or by it's own accord. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Maniac said:
Seriously??? You've never heard anybody b*tch about the MagicRack???

I personally don't like it for professional pool, especially 9-ball. Too easy to make a ball on the break. Heck, I personally know an APA SL2 that has made a ball on virtually every break I have seen her attempt using the MR, and it is over 20 break attempts (and normally, her breaking sux, big time). Wing ball is wired to the corner pocket (9-ball rack).

Maniac
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Perhaps with a "perfect" 9 ball rack, a ball will go every time. Could change the position of the foot string slightly. That would change the corner balls being wired.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Spectators? You mean there are spectators these days at events? Is that what you call the 40 people yawning in the background. :eek: I'm kidding, but really, did you see what was going on in the early to mid 90s???

We had days 800 people came through the door at our events in Dallas. We had TV COVERAGE and promoted it with press releases, print ads, TV commercials, and Professional Player Presence at the pool rooms around the city. CLICK HERE TO SEE PROOF OF WHAT I'M SAYING :thumbup:

I say this respectfully. You are changing the subject. We are talking about the racking and breaking debacle. Can we stay on point?

Is this done in this day and age? That's why there's no spectators, the rules don't really effect this even though they certainly do need to be addressed.

It's not a deep, dark mystery why pool has cycled down so much in the last 15 years. It's all about PROMOTION and the motion it takes to create it.....True Sports Popularity will never happen "by accident" or by it's own accord. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

I say this respectfully. You are changing the subject. We are talking about the racking and breaking debacle. Can we stay on point?
 
9-ball has become a joke with all of the rack mechanics out there. When two players who know how to manipulate the rack play each other, it's no longer a game of skill, imo. Instead, it turns into a "who can cheat rack better" game. I liked Earl's idea when he played a Tar match, 10-ball on a 10-footer w/ tight pockets. The better player should win that game. 9-ball is a joke these days.
 
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