Diamond Pro-Cut vs Olhausen Rattle?

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Miss on a Diamond and it's the pro cut pockets. Miss on a Olhausen and it's the rattle. What is the difference between the Olhausen "rattle" and Diamond "pro cut" pockets? Both rattle the ball if not hit right. Why call one pocket a "rattle" and the other "pro cut?
I have not played on an Olhausen for years and only have about 50 hours on a Diamond, so maybe I'm remembering an Olhausen wrong. Johnnyt
 

djkx1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The short version is the difference in the angle that the pockets are cut. Diamonds are the correct angle if you ask me, or the majority of people whose opinions actually matter, unlike mine.:)
 

budonahog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems to me, every Olhausen I have ever played on, the slate seems to go deep in the pocket. I personally enjoy their tables, but again, thats just my opinion.
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
I am no expert but I owned a 9ft Olhausen for 14 years, it was the Montrachet. On that table you could not hit a ball hard at the facing and expect it to go in. Long shots down the rail were only possible when hit slow to medium speeds. I have owned a Diamond now for about 3 years and the pockets do not reject well hit balls. Down the rail shots drop even when hit hard as long as the object ball hugs the rail. The pro cut pockets will rattle their fair share of balls but its more because the pockets are 1/2 inch tighter on these tables then my Olhausen. If I would of got the Diamond with league cut pockets the ghost would of hated me rather then haunted me:eek:.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
They really do not play the same. My local pool hall has Olhausens so I'm very familiar with them. The first time I played on a Diamond was in the TAR BAR last May, and I was quite surprised about this corner pocket thing I'd heard. I found the pockets actually quite accepting, of a good shot of course. So yes, the deeper shelf does require a little more presicion but the pocket will accept a good shot.

The problem with the Olhausens is two fold.

First off, as mentioned, the angle of the facings are splayed out more so that when a ball hit along the rail firm hits the facing, it tends to rebound it less into the pocket and more into the other facing across the way. Once the ball hits the opposite facing you are for all intents and purposes screwed.

The second thing was explained to me by Real King Cobra. The Accufast cushions used on Olhausens are (for lack of a better term) softer. So even if the pocket angles are cut correctly, when a ball hit along the rail with speed hits the facing, the facing compresses and "opens up" more on an Olhausen. This again causes the ball to rebound across the mouth of the pocket into the other facing rather than into the hole.

Take a typical 9 Ball situation where the 8 Ball is near or along the rail up near one of the corner pockets at the head end, and you have to hit the 8 Ball with speed in order to get the cue ball back up table for the 9 Ball that's on the foot rail. On a Diamond, as long as you make a good shot, the pocket will accept the 8 and you can get back down table for the 9. On the Olhausens at my local pool hall the 8 Ball will likely rattle no matter how well you hit it. So you find yourself in a position of having to decide if you should hit the shot you know you are supposed to play, realizing that you will likely rattle the 8 and sell out, or play the 8 softer and probably not have a shot on the 9.

That's been my experience.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
They really do not play the same. My local pool hall has Olhausens so I'm very familiar with them. The first time I played on a Diamond was in the TAR BAR last May, and I was quite surprised about this corner pocket thing I'd heard. I found the pockets actually quite accepting, of a good shot of course. So yes, the deeper shelf does require a little more presicion but the pocket will accept a good shot.

The problem with the Olhausens is two fold.

First off, as mentioned, the angle of the facings are splayed out more so that when a ball hit along the rail firm hits the facing, it tends to rebound it less into the pocket and more into the other facing across the way. Once the ball hits the opposite facing you are for all intents and purposes screwed.

The second thing was explained to me by Real King Cobra. The Accufast cushions used on Olhausens are (for lack of a better term) softer. So even if the pocket angles are cut correctly, when a ball hit along the rail with speed hits the facing, the facing compresses and "opens up" more on an Olhausen. This again causes the ball to rebound across the mouth of the pocket into the other facing rather than into the hole.

Take a typical 9 Ball situation where the 8 Ball is near or along the rail up near one of the corner pockets at the head end, and you have to hit the 8 Ball with speed in order to get the cue ball back up table for the 9 Ball that's on the foot rail. On a Diamond, as long as you make a good shot, the pocket will accept the 8 and you can get back down table for the 9. On the Olhausens at my local pool hall the 8 Ball will likely rattle no matter how well you hit it. So you find yourself in a position of having to decide if you should hit the shot you know you are supposed to play, realizing that you will likely rattle the 8 and sell out, or play the 8 softer and probably not have a shot on the 9.

That's been my experience.

Thank you. Makes sense to me. Johnnyt
 

donny mills

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think olhausens pockets are gaffy. I also think if you play one long enough it will make your stroke jerky. I played on a table for a long time with gaffy corner pockets. It made me scared to hit a ball hard with draw etc. down the rail. I feel that same fear on every olhausen I've played on.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I think olhausens pockets are gaffy. I also think if you play one long enough it will make your stroke jerky. I played on a table for a long time with gaffy corner pockets. It made me scared to hit a ball hard with draw etc. down the rail. I feel that same fear on every olhausen I've played on.

Thanks Donny. So you are saying that balls hit well hard will go on a Diamond, but not an Olhausen? Johnnyt
 

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
I avoid playing on a table which has pockets that will not accept a ball hit properly. It is annoying, it changes the game and it messes with your stroke and concentration. I want to play pool, not factor in gaffy pocket prevention/avoidance into my game.


What I mean by that is, if the ball has a direct line to the pocket (no contact with rails, points of the pocket etcetera), the pocket should accept the ball at the highest stroke speed you could use.

I have played on tables where the corner pocket angle is too wide, causing the rebound to be outward of the pocket. The opposing pocket facing sends the ball into the point and you have the dreaded rattle. This is on a perfectly hit shot with anything greater than medium speed. Only way to make the ball on said table is to roll the ball in.

But that is why I won't play on a table like that anymore. The table is altering the entire game by taking away shots. If you need to hit with more speed for position, you can't make a ball. Make the ball, you can't get shape. The table has prevented you from playing what is the proper pattern or proper play.

Some people think that is whining or a weakness and to just deal with it. I think that thinking is silly. Why not just block a pocket entirely and play with 5 pockets? Or, have hardened dead spots in the rails to add a new challenge! :rolleyes:


Diamond has perfect pockets. You can blast balls in at any angle on the table, and as long as you hit the hole - the pocket will accept the ball. Which is how it should be.


Also, a lot of folks incorrectly intermix the issue of pocket size into this matter. Pocket size has nothing to do with it. Large or small, the angle has to be right. The table in my example above had 5" pockets and would not accept a ball shot down the rail perfectly with medium speed or more. That large of a sewer and you can't make the damn ball down the rail with a perfect hit! That's how bad the angle of the pocket can be.


I like to do this following test to see if a table's pockets are OK. First, I set up 3 balls or more frozen in a line. This is to eliminate any aiming errors on my part, eliminate as much spin as possible and other factors. Just a ball going straight to a pocket. Nothing else influencing the ball. I fire this in with as much force as I can, but not break-speed. The idea is to simulate the strongest possible stroke I could ever use. Also, sometimes I do it in front of the side pocket as shown below to check to see if the "tit" is sticking out. It shouldn't get in the way of a properly built and set up table.


CueTable Help




Now, this one below is where Diamond tables simply dominate. Fire these in at full speed on most other tables and see what happens! There are other tables that can handle this, but they have to be set up perfectly. All Diamonds handle this ALL the time. Lesser tables will reject this ball either all the time, or 20% of the time or at some percentage which creates uncertainty even when perfectly hit. Diamond will always eat this ball. That's how it should be. If you don't hit the points, and you hit the hole - the ball should go in, regardless of speed.

On a Diamond, you always know it's YOU that missed the ball.

CueTable Help





On Diamond tables, the small pockets are not there to stop balls from going in. They are there to force you to have to hit the hole more precisely. However, the pocket itself does nothing to stop the ball from going in. In fact, the Diamond pockets are probably the most accepting of the ball because of the proper angles.

People who say it is tougher to make a ball on a Diamond really mean it's tougher for them to make the ball because of the smaller size and deeper shelf. But the pocket itself does nothing to stop a properly hit ball. Can't say that about other tables where the pocket actually rejects or makes perfectly hit balls harder to make. On the Diamond, the pocket is perfectly functional, just more difficult. On other tables, the pockets are dysfunctional - which makes them difficult, even though they were designed to be easier (larger) pockets.
 

tonmo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Should the definition of a "perfectly" hit ball depend on the table you are playing on? Every athlete has to adjust to playing conditions, e.g., astroturf vs. grass in football, day game with sun glare vs. night game in baseball... A player may have a preference, and may be better in one environment vs. another... So to the discussion here, I'd say there are no "dysfunctional" tables or pockets, they're just "different".

Now, a table in a bar with damaged equipment (like loose rails, pock-marked CB, damaged cloth) is dysfunctional, but a quality Olhausen isn't dysfunctional, just different. Same as a football field with large divots / holes in the field - that's dysfunctional, and should be fixed -- but a game on a rainy day with a softer ground than normal is different, and the player must adjust.

Sounds like most people prefer playing on a Diamond since Olhousen pockets behave differently than most would seem to prefer.

I have an Olhousen and when playing on other tables (Brunswicks) I've generally found them to be more forgiving. If I could do it all again, I probably would have gotten myself a Diamond or a Brunswick but the Olhousen is quite nice in itself.
 
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Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Should the definition of a "perfectly" hit ball depend on the table you are playing on? Every athlete has to adjust to playing conditions, e.g., astroturf vs. grass in football, day game with sun glare vs. night game in baseball... A player may have a preference, and may be better in one environment vs. another... So to the discussion here, I'd say there are no "dysfunctional" tables or pockets, they're just "different".

Now, a table in a bar with damaged equipment (like loose rails, pock-marked CB, damaged cloth) is dysfunctional, but a quality Olhausen isn't dysfunctional, just different. Same as a football field with large divots / holes in the field - that's dysfunctional, and should be fixed -- but a game on a rainy day with a softer ground than normal is different, and the player must adjust.

Sounds like most people prefer playing on a Diamond since Olhousen pockets behave differently than most would seem to prefer.

I have an Olhousen and when playing on other tables (Brunswicks) I've generally found them to be more forgiving. If I could do it all again, I probably would have gotten myself a Diamond or a Brunswick but the Olhousen is quite nice in itself.

If you or someone with an Olhausen table would set up the 3 balls on the rail and see how hard you can hit them and the pocket the ball. I tried it all over the rails on my Valley with the Ridgeback rails and I could hit them as hard as I can and the 4 1/2" pockets took all 24 shots with no rattle. Johnnyt
 

tonmo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you or someone with an Olhausen table would set up the 3 balls on the rail and see how hard you can hit them and the pocket the ball. I tried it all over the rails on my Valley with the Ridgeback rails and I could hit them as hard as I can and the 4 1/2" pockets took all 24 shots with no rattle. Johnnyt

I will try, but I can tell you straight up that me and my pool night buddies are often caught on the shelf. I've learned that it happens when I hit too hard and it happens after a brief rattle. I can see what folks are saying here about the "give" on the accufast cushions inside the pocket.

I've adjusted the way I play a corner pocket on rail shots (but can't say my overall stroke has changed as mentioned in a post above). I go soft to medium speed to avoid those issues. I've jammed such shots into a brunswick and valley corner pocket and can get away with it.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
If you have the pocket facings changed on the Olhausen tables, from stock 1/8" soft, to neoprene 3/16" you'll lose an 1/8" in pocket opening, but you'll also stop about 95% of the pocket rattle;)
 

tonmo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, I made a quick video and uploaded it to my poolvids.com site. These are the 4 attempts I made; I did not edit any out. I couldn't remember if the three balls on the rail were supposed to be in front of or behind the side pocket so I did both. The last two are the side pocket tests. I failed the first one but made the second.

http://www.poolvids.com/pocket-test.wmv

Size is just over 3mb.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
OK, I made a quick video and uploaded it to my poolvids.com site. These are the 4 attempts I made; I did not edit any out. I couldn't remember if the three balls on the rail were supposed to be in front of or behind the side pocket so I did both. The last two are the side pocket tests. I failed the first one but made the second.

http://www.poolvids.com/pocket-test.wmv

Size is just over 3mb.

Thank you very much tonmo. Seems to take the balls alright to me. Johnnyt
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
If you or someone with an Olhausen table would set up the 3 balls on the rail and see how hard you can hit them and the pocket the ball. I tried it all over the rails on my Valley with the Ridgeback rails and I could hit them as hard as I can and the 4 1/2" pockets took all 24 shots with no rattle. Johnnyt

Hi Johnnyt;

I am getting together with my buddy this afternoon at his club for a session before they officially open the doors. They have 9' Olhausens and I will experiment with and report back to this thread on the 3 ball rail shot.

Best,
Brian kc
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Hi Johnnyt;

I am getting together with my buddy this afternoon at his club for a session before they officially open the doors. They have 9' Olhausens and I will experiment with and report back to this thread on the 3 ball rail shot.

Best,
Brian kc

Thank you Brian. Johnnyt
 

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
OK, I made a quick video and uploaded it to my poolvids.com site. These are the 4 attempts I made; I did not edit any out. I couldn't remember if the three balls on the rail were supposed to be in front of or behind the side pocket so I did both. The last two are the side pocket tests. I failed the first one but made the second.

http://www.poolvids.com/pocket-test.wmv

Size is just over 3mb.


Looks good to me. On that test, I shoot harder than that. But it won't make a difference because your corners look fine at the speed you shot them which I would categorize as fast.

On the side pocket, I use a bit more angle. I should have illustrated it better on the cuetable :frown: ...nevertheless, you used high speed on the sides and it worked. Sides usually don't like that much speed.

On the first one that bounced out, it looked like you hit the point or just inside the left point. Don't think it was set up correctly. Should do it so that it hits the pocket as full as possible, but at the least possible angle. On that first one, the cue ball had room to spare on the right side of the side pocket. I replayed it at 50% speed. That's why it didn't go.


Overall, table looks fine. No delay on the ball drop which to me is an indicator of a potentially problematic pocket. On ones that are borderline, you fire down the long rail, and when the ball hits the pocket there is a sort of slight delay before the ball goes. Like an almost wants to rattle but doesn't sort of effect. That didn't happen.


Great job on the video!
 

tonmo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Looks good to me. On that test, I shoot harder than that. But it won't make a difference because your corners look fine at the speed you shot them which I would categorize as fast.

On the side pocket, I use a bit more angle. I should have illustrated it better on the cuetable :frown: ...nevertheless, you used high speed on the sides and it worked. Sides usually don't like that much speed.

On the first one that bounced out, it looked like you hit the point or just inside the left point. Don't think it was set up correctly. Should do it so that it hits the pocket as full as possible, but at the least possible angle. On that first one, the cue ball had room to spare on the right side of the side pocket. I replayed it at 50% speed. That's why it didn't go.


Overall, table looks fine. No delay on the ball drop which to me is an indicator of a potentially problematic pocket. On ones that are borderline, you fire down the long rail, and when the ball hits the pocket there is a sort of slight delay before the ball goes. Like an almost wants to rattle but doesn't sort of effect. That didn't happen.


Great job on the video!
Thanks! I appreciate the insight on that. On that third clip, it seemed I caught the left side a bit, and got a slight rattle effect (ie., bounced off the left side then to the right, then out).

I think your illustration was fine, I just didn't follow it exactly... should have brought my laptop downstairs with me...
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
OK, I made a quick video and uploaded it to my poolvids.com site. These are the 4 attempts I made; I did not edit any out. I couldn't remember if the three balls on the rail were supposed to be in front of or behind the side pocket so I did both. The last two are the side pocket tests. I failed the first one but made the second.

http://www.poolvids.com/pocket-test.wmv

Size is just over 3mb.

Doing that kind of a test, you can fire the balls into the corner pockets on a 6 x 12 snooker table as well, just like on your table. The shot you're demonstrating is a one in a million type of shot, because of the use of 3 balls in a combo, you're eliminating any chance of throw, spin, as well as running the balls straight down the face of the cushion into the deepest part of the facing and back of the pocket.

Try this, line up only 2 balls in a combo, then fire them into the pockets. Then while you're doing that, start putting a little throw into the shot by hitting the 2 ball combination a little off center...so what you're doing is injecting a little error into your shot...as when you're actually playing pool, that way you can see the difference in how balls are pocketed when they come off the rail at a slight angle, hit the facing farther out, hit the rail further up yet still be inside the pocket.

In other words, replicate shots you actually make on a table, because no one can miss a 3 ball combo down the rail...even with 4" corner pockets;)

Glen
 
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