Diamond ProAm vs. Brunswick Gold Crown

[risky biz]

How many Gold Crown V Tournament Editions have you converted to play "more like a Diamond" Pro-Am?

These Brunswicks you're referring to which are being converted to play "more like a Diamond" are very likely Brunswicks with big pockets, arent thay? That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the table it just means that someone decided they want tighter pockets. That isn't much of an issue if you compare a Diamond to a Tournament Edition Brunswick because those Brunswicks have tighter pockets.

Here in Vegas, the Cue Club has a lot of non-Tournament Edition Brunswicks on which the pockets have been tightened up. The tables play fine. It would help if they'd clean them more often.

 

[jalapus logan]

This thread wasn't started as a discussion of price points. It was merely a question of which table was preferred to play on. You then proceeded to bash Brunswick as a piece of junk which is eminently false.

I never "bashed" Brunswick. Show me where I did this.

 

[jalapus logan]

Originally Posted by risky biz
I'll bet you've never seen a Diamond anywhere near as old as those Brunswicks you're referring to. See, you don't really know how the Diamonds are going to hold up when they're that old. But this is straying far from the primary subject. This thread isn't about how each table would fare in an abuse test. That's like arguing which of two golf clubs is better after banging the shafts against an anvil. Completely irrelevant.



It isn't irrelevant if you're describing a Brunswick as junk because of "peeling rails" or something to that effect when that table is a hundred years old, may have been abused by it's owner, and there isn't a Diamond in existence of an age that is even remotely near the Brunswick's.

Um, I was talking about Gold Crowns. Show me a 100 year old Gold Crown. They don't exist.

And I am talking about laminate rails here. And they can come apart.

 

[jalapus logan]

This thread wasn't started as a discussion of price points. It was merely a question of which table was preferred to play on. You then proceeded to bash Brunswick as a piece of junk which is eminently false.

Actually, I started this thread thusly:

The question is simple. If you had the money to buy one and only one table AND keep that table for your pool playing lifetime, what would you buy? Sorry for adding the "other" option, but part of the purpose of this poll is to shed some light on the Diamond vs. Brunswick debate.

Notice that I meant to begin a discussion about BUYING a table. And that means that price points matter. You did read the thread, right?

 

[sfleinen]

It takes a while to get a Gabriels 9ft...because they first have to import all the MDF particle board they use in the construction of the rail side skirts and leg pedestal's

Hey now, Glen. You know a lot of midwesterners (U.S., that is) will take issue with your implied slight against MDF particle board! Afterall, their homes are likely made with the stuff. "Have MDF particle board + Tyvex + staple gun = a midwestern home built in a day."

All kidding aside, I thought MDF is a lot denser and less susceptible to atmospheric/barometric changes (i.e. warping) than plain ol' quarter-sawn wood? Wouldn't an "under skeleton" of MDF with an exoskeleton of beautiful heirloom-quality wood, be more durable/stable longer than the same made of just plain wood covered by the same heirloom-quality wood?

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

If the Diamonds were changed to play like Gold Crowns, then wouldn't the cushions that Diamond uses be interchangable with the Gold Crowns? The redesign I did on the Diamond rails to change how they play....being much better....would also have to be done to ANY Gold Crown as well....think about that for a minute

To be honest, I don't know. You are a master mechanic, I certainly am not. But I don't understand why the modification would necessarily have to be made on the GC's too. My understanding was that Diamond modified the cushions because of the rub that Diamonds banked short. I don't have enough time on Diamonds to know if that's true but I've heard enough guys mention it and Diamond did make the change. I've not heard of anyone complain about how GC's bank. At least not in any numbers that it has become an issue with GC's.

I guess what I'm saying is that making modifications to a specification of a table (such as brand of rubber or pocket size, cut angles) does not necessarily make it play more like another table that the specs come from. In my mind, when talking about Diamondizing a GC or Gold Crowing a Diamond, I'm thinking of trying to make one table PLAY more like the other, which I don't think will automatically happen by copying the specs or parts of one to the other.

When I got my GC4 I had Donny bring in the pockets to 4.25" by extending the subrails. I believe he changed some of the pocket angles a little so the pocket is a little more "U" and a little less "V". These specs may be closer to what are on a Diamond, but I can tell you that these changes did not result in the table playing like a Diamond. It still plays like a GC, but a tougher GC. This only stands to reason since for one thing, the shelf depth is still different, and this will have a significant effect on how the pockets play. Yes, the table plays closer in toughness to a new Diamond than a new GC, but the way a ball reacts to the pockets is still GC, not Diamond.

 

[bobroberts]

I voted for other. The reason being is for the home neither is a good looking piece of furniture. Had to appease the wife.
So i bought a table that is at least 40 years old and not manufactured anymore. 41/2 in. pockets K66 bumpers and 860 Simonis
This table looks and plays great.
So IMHO you can have the best of both worlds with a table that is neither a Brunswick GC or a Diamond.
Curious what it would be like though if there was a mechanic who defended Brunswick GCs.of earlier years when they were still made in the states.

 

[franko]

Diamond all the way

First they play head and shoulders above a brunswick.Second they are hand crafted tables made out of select woods and made here in the United States.Comparing a Diamond with a Brunswick is like comparing a Custom Cue with a imported production cue. There is no comparison. The only reason the vote is even close is because there are a bunch of 50 + players out there reliving their childhood when Brunswick was the table and actually made here not in China.If you can get by the nostalgic end of it you actually see it is very easy to pick the Diamond. Brunswick has been trying to Diamonize their tables for the last 10yrs. and find they need to price them out at almost 10k to even try and compete.

 

[cigardave]

Consider this...

I own a standard 9' Pro Am with Simonis 860 tourn blue cloth.

My buddy Jeff (Mr. J here on AZB) owns a 9' Gold Crown IV, which was modified last summer by Glen (RKC) with new cushions and extended rails to achieve 4.5" corner pockets. It also has Simonis 860 tourn blue.

Jeff and I practice together regularly. Jeff and I live within 10 minutes of one another.

Except for the very first time immediately after Glen finished modifying his table, we practice together on my table.

It's just tougher and better for both of our games.

 

[smashmouth]

If it isn't too much trouble how do the pocket dimensions and pocket shape on that compare to the Diamonds and Brunswick Tournaments?

sorry, can't remember , probably because pocket size/shape has never been an issue for me

this link has a decent pic

http://www.gabrielsbilliards.com/pool/

 

[smashmouth]

the made in China thing does nag me a little, I go back and forth on that issue, I think Connelley has gone overseas also

wouldn't be so bad if these companies actually did something for pool

I know a couple Olhausen dealers and owners who swear their stuff is the best built with the best cushions too

 

[evanlockhart]

I drive farther to play on Diamonds. GC's feel like buckets after playing on them...the amount of focus needed on every shot is not only required but demanded.

 

[risky biz]

Originally Posted by risky biz
"This thread wasn't started as a discussion of price points. It was merely a question of which table was preferred to play on. You then proceeded to bash Brunswick as a piece of junk which is eminently false."

Actually, I started this thread thusly:

The question is simple. If you had the money to buy one and only one table AND keep that table for your pool playing lifetime, what would you buy? Sorry for adding the "other" option, but part of the purpose of this poll is to shed some light on the Diamond vs. Brunswick debate.

Notice that I meant to begin a discussion about BUYING a table. And that means that price points matter. You did read the thread, right?

I read what you wrote. The specification "if you had the money" means price points don't matter. Maybe you should have said "if you could only afford the cheaper table which would you buy, the cheaper one or the more expensive one"? That isn't much of a poll if that's what you intended.

 

[jalapus logan]

Originally Posted by risky biz
"This thread wasn't started as a discussion of price points. It was merely a question of which table was preferred to play on. You then proceeded to bash Brunswick as a piece of junk which is eminently false."



I read what you wrote. The specification "if you had the money" means price points don't matter. Maybe you should have said "if you could only afford the cheaper table which would you buy, the cheaper one or the more expensive one"? That isn't much of a poll if that's what you intended.

Fine, you got me. Price does matter to most table buyers though. I continue to believe that the Diamond product is superior to the gold crown, regardless of price. You disagree. No problem.

Cheers...

 

[risky biz]

I never "bashed" Brunswick. Show me where I did this.

Originally Posted by 9 on the snap
"Everybody knows a Gold Crown is superior to a Diamond. Anyone who says different is disingenuous or a fool!"

You: "If, by saying superior you actually mean manufactured in China and then made to less exacting specifications and lesser longevity, then I suppose that you are correct."

OK, so you don't consider that bashing Brunswick?

You backpedaled on the "less exacting specifications", you imputed that someone in China who manufactured baby formula or sheetrock was an example of how Brunswicks are manufactured, you have zero proof that Brunswicks have a lesser longevity when everyone can see really old Brunswicks all over the place and they still play fine, there's nothing wrong with the rails, the cushions, or anything else.

As for others, they have stories about crowned slates years ago in one state or another but no name of a pool room where this supposedly occurred, stories about rock hard cushions which I've seen myself as often as I've seen flying saucers (and there are about 40 - 50 old Brunswick tables within 15 miles of me), yada, yada, yada.

Then, also, stories of Brunswicks changed to be "more like Diamonds" which simply means that the pool playing public is tending toward tighter pockets and is no comment at all on the quality or playability of the table.

I play on both Diamond Pro-Ams and GC V's and they both play fine although I notice more odd-looking rolls on the Diamonds, the Diamonds bank slightly goofy, the Diamond leg on the corner cramps my stance when I'm shooting from the corner, and there's no place at the foot of the table to shelve the balls.

 

[jalapus logan]

Originally Posted by 9 on the snap
"Everybody knows a Gold Crown is superior to a Diamond. Anyone who says different is disingenuous or a fool!"

You: "If, by saying superior you actually mean manufactured in China and then made to less exacting specifications and lesser longevity, then I suppose that you are correct."

OK, so you don't consider that bashing Brunswick?

No, I don't consider that bashing brunswick. You see, since that is my opinion, and not a stated fact, it can not be proved wrong, so there.

You backpedaled on the "less exacting specifications", you imputed that someone in China who manufactured baby formula or sheetrock was an example of how Brunswicks are manufactured, you have zero proof that Brunswicks have a lesser longevity when everyone can see really old Brunswicks all over the place and they still play fine, there's nothing wrong with the rails, the cushions, or anything else.

Ok. I now go on record as reasserting my statement that I believe that Gold Crowns are manufactured using less exacting specs than Diamond's pro and pro am. Satisfied? Also, stop saying that I am comparing Diamond's tables to antique Brunswicks. There are NO GOLD CROWNS OF ANTIQUATED VINTAGE, AS BRUNSWICK DID NOT MANUFATURE THEM THAT LONG AGO.

As for others, they have stories about crowned slates years ago in one state or another but no name of a pool room where this supposedly occurred, stories about rock hard cushions which I've seen myself as often as I've seen flying saucers (and there are about 40 - 50 old Brunswick tables within 15 miles of me), yada, yada, yada.

Don't know what you're talking about here. Though, perhaps you can refute Mark Griffen's assertion that Brunswick uses inferior rubber than Diamond's use of Artemis.

Then, also, stories of Brunswicks changed to be "more like Diamonds" which simply means that the pool playing public is tending toward tighter pockets and is no comment at all on the quality or playability of the table.

Um, you are wrong here. Pocket "tightness" comes from shelf length, pocket cut angle, etc. You deny this?

I play on both Diamond Pro-Ams and GC V's and they both play fine although I notice more odd-looking rolls on the Diamonds, the Diamonds bank slightly goofy, the Diamond leg on the corner cramps my stance when I'm shooting from the corner, and there's no place at the foot of the table to shelve the balls.

Odd looking rolls? What the hell does that mean. Do the balls roll in a circle or something? Odd looking rolls, that's a good one. I'll remember that as an excuse when and if I ever lose another game...

 

[perfectpocketz]

No...not really...because the money I make from working on ALL the Gold Crowns I work on...is to make them play more like Diamonds...not like better playing Gold Crowns

Glen, we both know the reason for all the work on the GC's is mostly because of all the mechanic (hack) work on those tables in the poolrooms.
We both helped figure out how the Artemith cushion plays better on Diamonds..as well as GCs. People keep asking to Dimondnize their GC...please help me out here..what does that mean?

I think...to tell the truth....all we do is put Artemith cushions on a GC table...Yes, you change the pocket angles to 141 and 15...that's what Diamond uses on their table....personally, I like a 142 and 13...the table plays a little harder.

I think they are both great tables, but don't you think if we're working on a lot more GC than any other table....well, Brunswick tables hold up forever.

Some of the Brunswick frames are the best of all times, (IMO) nothing comes close to the GCV frame.....(bar none)

Some like Brunswick, and some like Diamond, both are great....all in what you like, that's all.

Mark Gregory

 

[jalapus logan]

Glen, we both know the reason for all the work on the GC's is mostly because of all the mechanic (hack) work on those tables in the poolrooms.
We both helped figure out how the Artemith cushion plays better on Diamonds..as well as GCs. People keep asking to Dimondnize their GC...please help me out here..what does that mean?

I think...to tell the truth....all we do is put Artemith cushions on a GC table...Yes, you change the pocket angles to 141 and 15...that's what Diamond uses on their table....personally, I like a 142 and 13...the table plays a little harder.

I think they are both great tables, but don't you think if we're working on a lot more GC than any other table....well, Brunswick tables hold up forever.

Some of the Brunswick frames are the best of all times, (IMO) nothing comes close to the GCV frame.....(bar none)

Some like Brunswick, and some like Diamond, both are great....all in what you like, that's all.

Mark Gregory

All joking aside, I would like to play on a GC V or a Gabriels, just have not had the chance. In reality, I never met a pool table I really didn't like. Now, if we could just convince Brunswick and some other manufacturers to contribute to the sport (or is that game???) of pool. Hell, at least sponsor a tourney...

 

[perfectpocketz]

All joking aside, I would like to play on a GC V or a Gabriels, just have not had the chance. In reality, I never met a pool table I really didn't like. Now, if we could just convince Brunswick and some other manufacturers to contribute to the sport (or is that game???) of pool. Hell, at least sponsor a tourney...

Trust me Brunswick sponsored tournaments for years...years ago (LOL)...the promotors and some players helped to make that go away...but that's has nothing to do with this thread.

Brunswick and Diamond both make great tables....Diamond sponsors tournaments and gets their table out in the pool playing market.

Remember this my friend...the table don"t make the player....the balls don't know what table they're playing on:thumbup: The truth be told, all tables have a funny roll at one time or another....if the ball does something funny and goes in, the players acts like he did something great..but if the ball does something funny and the ball rolls out of the pocket...all you hear is %*%$^....did you ever see a player have the ball fade in, and say hey that ball faded in....that don"t count...LMAO

Good Luck Playing
Mark Gregory

 

[risky biz]

....if the ball does something funny and goes in, the players acts like he did something great..but if the ball does something funny and the ball rolls out of the pocket...all you hear is %*%$^....did you ever see a player have the ball fade in, and say hey that ball faded in....that don"t count...LMAO

Good Luck Playing
Mark Gregory

If I hit a shot that's a little off and headed for the point then rolls off into the pocket I say, "WTF"? It happens more on Diamonds this way and the other way, too.