Did Mark Wilson finally kill "aiming systems" ?

[tomatoshooter]

I've often thought this as well. I think there's a small subsection of players who have never found pocketing balls difficult. And it's because they were properly aligned or very close to it the first few times they played pool. For some it happened sort of accidentally and they naturally fell into a good stance, and for others it's because someone instructed them the first time they picked up a cue.

Proper alignment right away meant that they never developed any significant bad compensating habits and that their brains learned cut angles quickly and easily. And perhaps most importantly, they never developed a fear of seemingly random misses.

IMO, the longer someone spends as a relatively weak player, the harder it is for them to become a strong player regardless of practice and instruction. And that's because they will always have some lingering fear and doubt in their minds when they play stemming from when they couldn't pocket balls consistently.

Not saying it's impossible to make that leap, of course. But it requires a lot of work on the mental game. Anyone who was once a banger for longer than a couple of months will always have that inner banger voice in their head.

I'd include eye pattern in this, too. I think a lot of the people we think are highly coordinated or talented, especially those who seem skilled right away, tend to naturally have good alignment and eye pattern. They sort of stumble upon, or naturally gravitate to an effective method maybe more than having a distinct physical capability that most lack.

 

[MattPoland]

I'd include eye pattern in this, too. I think a lot of the people we think are highly coordinated or talented, especially those who seem skilled right away, tend to naturally have good alignment and eye pattern. They sort of stumble upon, or naturally gravitate to an effective method maybe more than having a distinct physical capability that most lack.

I also want to add we sometimes say things like “stumble upon” or “naturally gravitate to” for people that have put in a degree of table time we can’t fathom. Enough so I would suggest it’s not an accident they land where they land. They put in the work to get there.

 

[JoeyInCali]

There is no magic.pill.

 

[tomatoshooter]

I also want to add we sometimes say things like “stumble upon” or “naturally gravitate to” for people that have put in a degree of table time we can’t fathom. Enough so I would suggest it’s not an accident they land where they land. They put in the work to get there.

I'm thinking of the the people who seem to be good the second they start playing. The pros have all put in an unfathomable amount of work to hone their skills. At that level, that obsessive work ethic is probably even more rare than whatever physical talents they possess.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm thinking of the the people who seem to be good the second they start playing. The pros have all put in an unfathomable amount of work to hone their skills. At that level, that obsessive work ethic is probably even more rare than whatever physical talents they possess.

From the Wikipedia page on Allen Hopkins:

At seven years old, after watching many tournaments on television, Allen began to play pool on a small table his parents bought for him. As an amateur, at the age of 12, Hopkins ran a prodigious 110 balls and took this talent to play against grown men.​

​

According to another story, he ran the table (or maybe 12 balls) the first time he played. He also had the work ethic.

But you gotta wonder which aiming system he used to run 110.

 

[BlueRaider]

I also want to add we sometimes say things like “stumble upon” or “naturally gravitate to” for people that have put in a degree of table time we can’t fathom. Enough so I would suggest it’s not an accident they land where they land. They put in the work to get there.

I actually think that being a "natural" at pool (which usually just means standing correctly and making a decent bridge right off the bat) can often make people LESS interested in the game because it seems simple to them. The Fillers and Shaws of the world are probably the guys who started out making balls pretty easily and developed a love for/addiction to pool. And they worked their butts off to get even better and eventually reach world-class level. But the combination of those traits is rare.

I played pool casually for several years with a lot of friends and acquaintances starting in college and my early 20s, and it was obvious that some people simply shot straighter than others even with no instruction or significant history of playing. They couldn't play position beyond slow rolling the cue ball, and if they kept playing and advanced a little they would learn to stop and draw a bit, but they never struggled to send the cue ball where they wanted. They also never got truly invested in pool, whereas I and a few of my other friends who struggled to pocket balls initially were hooked because we wanted to get better.

The biggest tell to me for the "naturals" is the break. I used to play in a room that was half dive bar, half pool room, and most beginners who came through the door and ended up at a table couldn't break at all. But occasionally someone would blast the rack open and you'd assume they were a good player, but watching them shoot 2 balls made it clear they were a beginner. However, they just so happened to stand right and had good mechanics by default, so they sent the cue ball where they intended, even with power behind it.

 

[tomatoshooter]

I actually think that being a "natural" at pool (which usually just means standing correctly and making a decent bridge right off the bat) can often make people LESS interested in the game because it seems simple to them. The Fillers and Shaws of the world are probably the guys who started out making balls pretty easily and developed a love for/addiction to pool. And they worked their butts off to get even better and eventually reach world-class level. But the combination of those traits is rare.

I played pool casually for several years with a lot of friends and acquaintances starting in college and my early 20s, and it was obvious that some people simply shot straighter than others even with no instruction or significant history of playing. They couldn't play position beyond slow rolling the cue ball, and if they kept playing and advanced a little they would learn to stop and draw a bit, but they never struggled to send the cue ball where they wanted. They also never got truly invested in pool, whereas I and a few of my other friends who struggled to pocket balls initially were hooked because we wanted to get better.

The biggest tell to me for the "naturals" is the break. I used to play in a room that was half dive bar, half pool room, and most beginners who came through the door and ended up at a table couldn't break at all. But occasionally someone would blast the rack open and you'd assume they were a good player, but watching them shoot 2 balls made it clear they were a beginner. However, they just so happened to stand right and had good mechanics by default, so they sent the cue ball where they intended, even with power behind it.

I think my stance and bridge were at least tolerable to start with, the changes I've made are primarily refinements, but learning the quiet eye and eye pattern transformed my game. The game didn't become truly addictive for me until I reached the level where I can execute position and see patterns. Then it became "I have the pieces, why can't I put them together reliably? "

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...at the age of 12, Hopkins ran a prodigious 110 balls

Wut???

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

Wut???

pj
chgo

Shtt where do you even get prodigious balls? Brat...

 

[Bob Jewett]

Wut???

pj
chgo

And here is Luca Brecel making a perfect game (147, in practice) at snooker at 12. He won the world championship last year.

 

[straightline]

If I stroke a draw shot like that, the rock's headed for the wall. sStill han't figured it out.

 

[VarmintKong]

Aphantasia is the inabilty to create mental images. Ghost ball has never worked for me because i can not actually picture it. I never knew this was a thing until a few years ago. I never understood how people could picture things in their head, when i just really associate things them with concepts or definitions.

Aphantasia: Thinking That’s Out of Sight

Aphantasia is a characteristic where you can’t form mental images to “see” things in your head. Learn more about this trait.

my.clevelandclinic.org

This is totally interesting to me. I think it is human nature to assume that everyone else experiences things like you do… BUT… this is something that is completely unrelatable.

I don’t even know how to describe a scenario…. If you make a shot, how do you remember how to hit it the next time it comes up? Can you recognize that same shot if it is left or right cut, short or long rail? How do you know how to tighten or lengthen an angle? How do you recall and recognize if you can’t picture what has been successful or failed in the past?

 

[Oikawa]

This is totally interesting to me. I think it is human nature to assume that everyone else experiences things like you do… BUT… this is something that is completely unrelatable.

I don’t even know how to describe a scenario…. If you make a shot, how do you remember how to hit it the next time it comes up? Can you recognize that same shot if it is left or right cut, short or long rail? How do you know how to tighten or lengthen an angle? How do you recall and recognize if you can’t picture what has been successful or failed in the past?

As someone who also has some degree of aphantasia, I don't need to "see" visual images in my head to know different types of shots, all I need is to conceptualize the locations of the balls. When I imagine a shot in my head it's happening in like an abstract 2D geometry plane, with the locations of the balls relative to the table and other balls conveying all relevant information to be able to recall and recognize shots/situation etc.

When I "visualize" the ghost ball, I don't actually see it, rather I move my eyes around the edges of the spatial location where I intuitively perceive it to be. This eye movement gives my subconscious similar information as someone visualizing it would give.

And as for aiming, I aim 100% subconsciously without being aware of contact points or any point on the OB at all, just CB/OB overlap feels correct and then I keep that while going down and stay still.

 

[straightline]

As someone who also has some degree of aphantasia, I don't need to "see" visual images in my head to know different types of shots, all I need is to conceptualize the locations of the balls. When I imagine a shot in my head it's happening in like an abstract 2D geometry plane, with the locations of the balls relative to the table and other balls conveying all relevant information to be able to recall and recognize shots/situation etc.

When I "visualize" the ghost ball, I don't actually see it, rather I move my eyes around the edges of the spatial location where I intuitively perceive it to be. This eye movement gives my subconscious similar information as someone visualizing it would give.

How do you align the cue?

 

[Oikawa]

How do you align the cue?

With my chin. Head is always in same place/angle relative to the shot line (OB/CB overlap) that I'm seeing with my eyes, so aligning the back-end of the cue with the chin always fixes it to be on the correct line. Front-end of the cue is then obviously aligned by pointing at the correct point on the CB. These two points form the correct cue alignment.

 

[straightline]

With my chin. Head is always in same place/angle relative to the shot line (OB/CB overlap) that I'm seeing with my eyes, so aligning the back-end of the cue with the chin always fixes it to be on the correct line.

And success rate? (promise not to expound on CPG)

 

[Oikawa]

And success rate? (promise not to expound on CPG)

Very good for 99% of shots, it's effortless and fast to do. Only gets troublesome with extreme elevation or super-awkward stretches, because it's tricky to keep your head in the same angle relative to the shot with those, but those are tough no matter what you do.

I mean, of course I miss many shots just like any 600-650ish fargo would, but those misses are most likely from the intuition of the correct CB/OB alignment being slightly off on tougher shots (which slowly improves over time from shooting the shots), or for very tough shots, other technique-related issues can start causing misses too. Then there's stroke related misses, like power draws, but those have nothing to do with alignment either. So yeah, it's not the chin-aided cue alignment causing misses to correct CB/OB alignments, that cue-alignment part is very repeatable and trustable for me.

What is CPG?

 

[straightline]

Very good for 99% of shots, it's effortless and fast to do. Only gets troublesome with extreme elevation or super-awkward stretches, because it's tricky to keep your head in the same angle relative to the shot with those, but those are tough no matter what you do.

I mean, of course I miss many shots just like any 600-650ish fargo would, but those misses are most likely from the intuition of the correct CB/OB alignment being slightly off on tougher shots (which slowly improves over time from shooting the shots), or for very tough shots, other technique-related issues can start causing misses too. Then there's stroke related misses, like power draws, but those have nothing to do with alignment either. So yeah, it's not the chin-aided cue alignment causing misses to correct CB/OB alignments, that cue-alignment part is very repeatable and trustable for me.

What is CPG?

Contact Point Geometry. Ok so you fire at stuff like a commando locked to his rifle? We differ on the process but the destination is functionally similar.

 

[MmmSharp]

This is totally interesting to me. I think it is human nature to assume that everyone else experiences things like you do… BUT… this is something that is completely unrelatable.

I don’t even know how to describe a scenario…. If you make a shot, how do you remember how to hit it the next time it comes up? Can you recognize that same shot if it is left or right cut, short or long rail? How do you know how to tighten or lengthen an angle? How do you recall and recognize if you can’t picture what has been successful or failed in the past?

Not being able to visualize does not prevent me from aiming. I can not visualize something not there, but i can line up to objects that are there and understand how they interact together. I dont see the outcomes in my mind, but i can understand and predict them.

Lining my cue up from my back leg, getting down on the shot and looking at the spot on the cue ball i need to hit to send in the line it needs to go is how i shoot. I also use things i can see as part of my process. The diamonds help, different landmarks around the table "spot on the wall" but i never use the wall. I often look beyond the table for the line i want to sent the cueball on.

I am not a great player. I typically play 5-8 hours a week in league, twice a week. I always need time to warm up and figure out my body mechanics. I am not somone who can just go in cold. Working on establishing my fargo right now and i expect i will be 450-480 based on how i know others are rated that i play. I can get games from 550s, but rarely win a race, and i have to be on my top gear to win a race to 7. I get the occasional break/run or run out in 8 ball. I probably average 3-6 ball runs before playing safe. I also have poor eyesight so long shots on 9' tables are rough depending on the day.

It was eye opening when i learned about this aphantasia. I never understood when people talked about a mental picture and replicate them as art. One of my best friends entire family are artists. I was so amazed at what they could do. I am in late 40s and now i know why i dont have that same creativeity others have but instead i can identify and explain things verbally. Learning about this really made me start understanding how i learn and why it is different than others.

 

[MmmSharp]

Contact Point Geometry. Ok so you fire at stuff like a commando locked to his rifle? We differ on the process but the destination is functionally similar.

Good way of putting it. Yes, that is essentially what i do.

I know you were responding to someone else, but this fits for me as well ;p