Did Mark Wilson finally kill "aiming systems" ?

[dendweller]

Shoot a bunch of straight-in shots (where the "aim" is obvious). How many did you miss? That's the percentage of times you miss because of something other than aim.

pj
chgo

And when they had that spot shot shoot out some of the best players missed. I don't think those same players would have missed the straight in shots as often. I think they missed the spot shots more often because it was a more difficult shot and they aimed or accounted for spin, deflection or throw wrong.

I think to say it's almost always a break down in fundamentals is a little over the top.

 

[Zerksies]

aiming systems don't work because everyones brain processes information diffrently. I've probably said this dozens of times here. I can't use the ghost ball for shit.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Aiming an Alignment are one in the same......Everyone uses a/a even if on a subconscious level....aka even if they don't realize it.......but no two brains are the same....so a method that works for one may not work so well for another.....but most everyone should be able to find one that fits their brain.

Guys have been using a/a systems since hookers first opened up shop..........Some guys natural internal (subconscious) a/a methods are lousy as witnessed by the seat of a toilet and using an external a/a method would enhance their natural a/a.

The very first shaft aiming system was most likely invented by a hooker.

 

[lakeman77]

Doesn’t that seem like an aiming problem as well?

I stand behind the OB and pocket, get the exact point to hit, so I know where to aim. How I set up and stroke determines if I make the shot.

 

[Quesports]

I stand behind the OB and pocket, get the exact point to hit, so I know where to aim. How I set up and stroke determines if I make the shot.

Just to add another thought to your statement which I agree with, btw. When I am looking for the contact point on the object ball I have made it a habit of looking at the horizontal middle of the object ball. It is the exact point of collision between the two balls and has helped me pocket balls with greater consistency. It is something I had to force myself to do at first but it became habitual after a while. Just my 2 cents, hope your well up in the land of Lincoln!

I miss the league at Shooters, lots of good folks there!

 

[Bob Jewett]

But if you can't break successfully, you are immediately giving up control of the table. For a lower level player that might not matter much in rotation, but in 8 ball you are getting the opportunity to choose your group and one additional offensive opportunity at the table. ...

In a game of eight ball that is going to go at least five innings, that advantage fades. I'm talking about players and opponents who almost never run out, yet they are really concerned about their break. I think such players probably don't need break cues, either.

An interesting experiment would be to keep track of matches of FargoRate 400 (or so) level players and find the conversion rate of "good" breaks into wins. I guess a good break would be one that pockets a ball. I suspect that rate would not be significantly different from 50%.

 

[boogieman]

I’m going to hell for how funny this is.

pj
chgo

"It looked like an epileptic snake!"

 

[Oikawa]

However, one component of "some" aiming systems, is the precise place where your eyes focus on. I do believe if you look at the wrong place, your eyes will steer your stroke crooked, no matter if its 1000% perfectly straight otherwise. This is Geno Machino's main principle in his Perfect Aim system.

For all I know, this could very well be true for a large amount of people with different techniques, but as someone whose stroke is built on the core idea of a dead-straight, simple muscle movement that is always in the same direction relative to my stance, as long as I'm looking roughly near the OB, the exact point I look at on the delivery is completely irrelevant to my consistency.

I typically just look somewhere on the OB, conceptualizing the OB as a whole, not focused on any specific point, not even visually aware of what exact point the CB will hit the OB at.

I did the aiming instinctively while standing (visusalized the shot and let my subconscious pick the correct CB/OB overlap), then set my body and cue up such that (assuming I do everything else properly) a straight stroke will cause whatever I visualized before to happen. In this framework, the muscles moving the cue straight forward don't care where my eyes are looking at.

For me, the purpose of looking at the OB last is to have better speed control, get a clear holistic picture of the shot after I pull the trigger, and make it easier to stay completely still (it's harder to notice tiny body movements if you don't see your whole surroundings). So it makes sense to look at the OB for many reasons, it just doesn't affect my cue delivery direction.

 

[trob]

In a game of eight ball that is going to go at least five innings, that advantage fades. I'm talking about players and opponents who almost never run out, yet they are really concerned about their break. I think such players probably don't need break cues, either.

An interesting experiment would be to keep track of matches of FargoRate 400 (or so) level players and find the conversion rate of "good" breaks into wins. I guess a good break would be one that pockets a ball. I suspect that rate would not be significantly different from 50%.

I‘ve told apa players who are trying to get better to hit the cue ball the length of the table and have it come back to your tip (something I start and end every practice with) if you can’t do that consistently you need to figure out why because until you can accurately hit the cue ball nothing else you do will matter.

 

[maha]

you get naturally into the right stance for the shot. its all in making that straight stroke.
people miss because they do not have a straight stroke all the time.

or because in pressure situations their body chokes and they don't stroke straight. most times they tighten up.

ill add some days you just dont see the contact point well when down on the shot or at least your mind doesnt process it so it may take some time shooting to get in the so called groove.

 

[Oikawa]

As for the main topic of this thread, I agree with his main premise. Obviously there aren't only "two differences" between an amateur and a pro, but his point stands.

"He also pointed out that if you are an experienced pool player, you very rarely miss shots because of your aim. You miss shots because of a breakdown in your stance or stroke."

As for this, it can be a vicious cycle for lower-rated or intermediate level players who don't have their fundamentals worked out. Their stance/stroke sucks, so they miss shots, which in turn makes them trust their aim even less, causing even more misses. Once they fix their fundamentals up to a certain standard, they will start trusting their aim more as a result, even if nothing changed in their aiming process.

-

One effective habit I have in my practice, is to always switch to shooting straight-in shots, if something starts feeling funny in my fundamentals for a given shot, or I miss a shot by more than what is reasonable for my standards. The idea is to take the essence of the shot at hand that I missed (e.g. a certain type of an awkward bridge or body position, being elevated, power-draw), and remove the variable of aim from it by setting it up as a straight-in shot.

Then I repeat that straight-in shot a couple times, and depending on the results, usually know pretty confidently why I missed earlier (e.g. some old habit creeping in or forgetting to do a certain thing in my PSR). Sometimes the original miss might be a 100% aiming issue, e.g. some touchy sidespin shot, where I haven't done enough reps yet to feel the required aim well enough. Sometimes the results are very weird, and I can't figure out the pattern of my misses (which usually means a technical issue, not being aware of something I am doing differently with my body which can cause a miss, these are most common for awkward body positions e.g. elevated shots), in which case it's time to stop doing whatever practice routine I was doing, and switch to working on that particular type of problem shot until it makes more sense.

Put it simply, when practicing, I always want to know why I missed, not just mindlessly repeat the same shot over and over until I don't miss, because that can lead to fixing mistakes with other mistakes, e.g. compensating for a stroke deficit with faulty aim.

 

[justadub]

I have a lot of requests from 450-level players for suggestions on their smash break shots. I tell them something similar. I point out that the best they can do on the break is to not embarrass themselves. Keep the cue ball on the table and spread the balls OK. They think that the break can be a significant part of their game. It can be ... sometime after they pass 600 or so.

I doubt I'd even rate as high as 450, but I learned a long time ago to try and shoot my 9-ball break in a fashion that Corey Duell was teaching in an online video, showing the basic cut break. If I do that relatively consistently, I may not make a ball every time, but they should at least be headed in the right direction and give me a chance.

I can embarrass myself rather easily in this game

 

[Justaneng]

In a game of eight ball that is going to go at least five innings, that advantage fades. I'm talking about players and opponents who almost never run out, yet they are really concerned about their break. I think such players probably don't need break cues, either.

An interesting experiment would be to keep track of matches of FargoRate 400 (or so) level players and find the conversion rate of "good" breaks into wins. I guess a good break would be one that pockets a ball. I suspect that rate would not be significantly different from 50%.

I feel like this is my wheelhouse - league guy who plays in the 400-525 range (granted, on Diamond bar boxes).

I'm going to guess in "take what you make" formats (APA), breaking success won't be correlated much with winning, and if you're a truly weak player you may be better off with a poor break, as increasing inning counts is probably your best chance of success against good (but not great) league players who are going to let you have the table a few times as it takes some time for them to solve their own problems.

However, I'm going to say there is a bit of advantage in "open on the break" formats (USAPL/BCA). The reason being a good break (ball sunk, cue ball in a manageable location) allows the breaker to pick their suit, and most 400+ types are knowledgeable enough to make a decent solid/stripes choice. So for two Fargo 4-somethings facing off who can reliably run 5 open balls but can get iffy with breakout shots and long shots down the rail, the one with the fewer problem balls is a reasonably heavy favorite.

 

[maha]

open break yes it is always a plus. but i dont think its right. gives the breaker too much advantage.

nine ball or 6 ball for weak players the break is a disadvantage. you should hit the break straight on and draw cue ball back to the short rail.

 

[tomatoshooter]

In a game of eight ball that is going to go at least five innings, that advantage fades. I'm talking about players and opponents who almost never run out, yet they are really concerned about their break. I think such players probably don't need break cues, either.

An interesting experiment would be to keep track of matches of FargoRate 400 (or so) level players and find the conversion rate of "good" breaks into wins. I guess a good break would be one that pockets a ball. I suspect that rate would not be significantly different from 50%.

I was thinking about this, I think your 400 players are playing on tougher equipment than I'm used to. Or I'm vastly overrating 400s, because I'd expect most games to be 3-5 innings. If someone is getting past 5 innings most of the time, they probably don't need to spend a lot of time working on the break. And the difference between a 1-3 inning game and a 5+ inning game is often a good spread on the break.

I guess the next question is can there be an advantage to a soft break, and when is that? It may make the game go longer, but if your opponent is a big threat to run out, they are probably also more skilled at breaking up clusters and maneuvering through traffic. I guess if you break dry a lot, you are guaranteed to get to the table instead of setting up a runout. Against a near peer adversary, I feel like a ball down and a good spread puts me at about a 60-40 favorite.

 

[dr_dave]

A friend of mine recently suggested that I watch the Mark Wilson tutorials on YouTube. He said something in one of those videos that really stood out to me. Basically he said that there are only 2 differences between an average player and a pro player:

1. A pro player has a straighter, more fluid stroke
2. A pro player has a better and more repeatable stance

I would add the following to this list:

3. A pro player has a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine

He also pointed out that if you are an experienced pool player, you very rarely miss shots because of your aim. You miss shots because of a breakdown in your stance or stroke.

Pro players also aim better because they do all of the DAM things that help people aim better:

 

[tomatoshooter]

I would add the following to this list:

3. A pro player has a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine



Pro players also aim better because they do all of the DAM things that help people aim better:

If you don't mind a bit of unsolicited advice, I've watched many of your videos (thank you!) and you shoot much better without the backwards cap. Thanks for another excellent video.

 

[BlueRaider]

I think eye alignment has to account for at least a few %..... just look at a bunch of
top pros and how their head is either tipped at an angle or aligned over the cue in
a variety of ways....

I also think that this issue is key to many players seemingly "natural" playing ability
in that they hit the sweet spot in this issue early on and the confidence it built just
catapalted (sp?) their confidence and started the 'ball rolling'.... just my $.01

td

I've often thought this as well. I think there's a small subsection of players who have never found pocketing balls difficult. And it's because they were properly aligned or very close to it the first few times they played pool. For some it happened sort of accidentally and they naturally fell into a good stance, and for others it's because someone instructed them the first time they picked up a cue.

Proper alignment right away meant that they never developed any significant bad compensating habits and that their brains learned cut angles quickly and easily. And perhaps most importantly, they never developed a fear of seemingly random misses.

IMO, the longer someone spends as a relatively weak player, the harder it is for them to become a strong player regardless of practice and instruction. And that's because they will always have some lingering fear and doubt in their minds when they play stemming from when they couldn't pocket balls consistently.

Not saying it's impossible to make that leap, of course. But it requires a lot of work on the mental game. Anyone who was once a banger for longer than a couple of months will always have that inner banger voice in their head.

 

[MmmSharp]

aiming systems don't work because everyones brain processes information diffrently. I've probably said this dozens of times here. I can't use the ghost ball for shit.

Aphantasia is the inabilty to create mental images. Ghost ball has never worked for me because i can not actually picture it. I never knew this was a thing until a few years ago. I never understood how people could picture things in their head, when i just really associate things them with concepts or definitions.

Aphantasia: Thinking That’s Out of Sight

Aphantasia is a characteristic where you can’t form mental images to “see” things in your head. Learn more about this trait.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[straightline]

aiming systems don't work because everyones brain processes information diffrently. I've probably said this dozens of times here. I can't use the ghost ball for shit.

So how do you manage?