Digital Camcorder/Video Editing Software (Pool related)

Matt_24

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I want to make some pool videos, etc and wanted some advice on some good Digital Camcorders and video editing software. I'm not looking to do anything fancy....just some basic editing with perhaps a few subtitles.

Is there a machine you need other than your computer to transfer these videos to a DVD (say if you wanted to do it in more of a bulk format)?

To all of you tech gurus out there, thanks in advance.
 
Depends on the type of camera you have/buy. The kinds that take a tape of any kind, like miniDV tapes or DVDs, are the cheapest of the real cameras*.

Example**:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8428506&type=product&id=1181832841570

Unfortunately with the miniDV cameras, you need a firewire port to have you computer be able to capture the video off the camera. Chances are great that you don't have one of these and would have to purchase a video capture card, or possibly an external unit, either of which are gonna be a few more dollars, and a few more headaches. Not my recommendation.

Or you can get a camera that stores its videos on a hard drive//memory card. These you should be able to transfer the video over to your computer through a USB(2.0 preferred) port. These are much more expensive (like $350-$400+), but will be(already are...) the standard shortly.

Example:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8883568&type=product&id=1210982242713

*Fake Cameras:
Depending on how fancy you want to get, and how well you want the picture to look, you can get the cheap-o digital camcorders.

Example:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8764651&type=product&id=1203815243680

I use one of these (not this exact model but you get the point). This is an easy to use video camera we used to record our strokes and help retune them. We also made some video montages of some ridiculously difficult (read as extremely lucky) shots. The quality wasn't the greatest but it sufficed. If you were putting out a video like John Shmidt's 14.1 video, I would NOT use one of these. If its just to better your game, or make fun videos, for ~$100, this is a pretty good way to go. Easy to transfer, easy to use. I suggest also investing in a battery recharger and a few rechargable batteries for this.

As for the program to make videos. Simple ones can but cut and put together really basically in Window's Movie Maker. Its free, and its gonna be your best bet unless you want to go out and spend some dough. These programs aren't cheap. I use Sony Vegas 6 personally, but I got a full version from a teacher of mine a few years back.

good luck!

**Some miniDV cameras and DVD ones have usb interface ports on them. DO NOT BE FOOLED. YOU CANNOT TRANSFER VIDEOS OFF THE CAMERA THIS WAY. I don't care what the guy at Best Buy or target says. Take this one from me.
 
As far as a camera goes... the easiest thing is something that records straight to a hard drive or flash drive. I have a canon hf10 that i used sometimes to film myself. It works just like a little digital camera, it records onto a built in 16gig SD card and you can also add more SD cards if you want. Its also 1080p HD, so the quality is amazing for a consumer camera. Then its as easy as transferring the files onto your computer. My camera costs $800 but you can find other hard drive cameras for as little as $350 or so.

I use a mac and can use imove (free), final cut express ($199) or final cut pro ($1200) to transfer the video and edit, add titles etc.
 
Matt_24 said:
Is there a machine you need other than your computer to transfer these videos to a DVD (say if you wanted to do it in more of a bulk format)?
Click to expand...

If your looking to put burn a large bulk of DVDs, you can either A) do it manually or B) get one of these. http://www.discmakers.com/duplicators/automated/

we have one at work, and i must say, its AWESOME! But, its also $1300.
 
I have been using the flip camcorder from pure. You can get it at best buy or amazon.com. I love the small size (it fits in the pool bag). Give it a try and the price is great.
 
I run http://www.poolvids.com -- I've found it easy to manage this with my digital camera, the Cannon PowerShot A540. It supports video mode, as most cameras do. I got a 2 gig memory card for something like $30 or so (maybe half that, hard to remember) and I adjusted the video quality settings to maximize the amount of video I could capture. At lowest settings, I can record for about 47 minutes. Then I just USB to my computer and move it to my hard drive, and edit with Windows Movie Maker (it's free!). Here's a couple of example videos I made with this:

http://www.poolvids.com/view/38/random-shots/

http://www.poolvids.com/view/16/playing-the-ghost-9ball/

(of course my server is down at the moment but check it soon)

EDIT: it's back up.
 
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Matt_24 said:
I want to make some pool videos, etc and wanted some advice on some good Digital Camcorders and video editing software. I'm not looking to do anything fancy....just some basic editing with perhaps a few subtitles.
Click to expand...
If you have a recent digital camera, you can simply use the video function to record pretty decent video. However, if you want a dedicated camcorder, I suggest one that records to DV Tape or flash memory card. IMO, you should stay away from the hard drive or DVD based camcorders, as sometimes bumping or shaking will cause them to immediately shut off. But if you are tripod mounting it, or just walking with it, you should be ok with it.

As for price, you have many different factors to consider, all of which add cost to the device, including: lenses (i.e., zoom), battery type/life, features, number of CCDs and resolution, size (normal or widescreen), compression, view finder, HighDef or regular def, stabilization, size of camera, weight, etc, etc. A little poking around on the internet should get you over the hump.

For a general motion camcorder, you should be able to get something that fits your needs for around $100. In fact, I have recently seen Aiptek HighDef camcorders for under $200. These have no moving parts, record to flash memory, and have a small LCD viewfinder. However, there is no optical zoom and everything appears to be compressed when saving.

My personal "billiards" camera is a Panasonic 3-CCD PV-GS320, which records to mini-DV tape, has optical zooming, can record in regular and widescreen, and has a number of other cool features. The regular battery lasts about 2 hours, and the extended one, about 4. The downside is that DV tapes require you to use your computer to "capture" the video in real time (generically, this means every minute you record takes 1 minute to get into your computer). This is in contrast to flash memory which allows you to transfer movies digitally (i.e., just like copying files from your hard drive). This is much faster.

Is there a machine you need other than your computer to transfer these videos to a DVD (say if you wanted to do it in more of a bulk format)?
Click to expand...
To record to normal DVD, you only need a simple DVD writer. As you suspected, this will only do 1 at a time. Each 4.7GB DVD will take between 5 and 15 minutes to actually create. However, this doesn't include the hours needed to get your DVD in final format (editing, menus, soundtrack, etc) For bigger DVD projects, you can get a Dual Layer burner (DVD-DL) which will store up to 8.5GB. Write times are about twice as long as the 4.7GB version. Both of these should be readable by just about all DVD players. You could also get a BlueRay burner if you needed to store 25GB of data.

As for bulk, DVD duplicators are quite expensive (say around $1000) and may be cost prohibitive at the early stage.

Let me know if you have any other Q's.

-td
 
Here are some considerations. I do quite a bit of video editing and conversions from VHS to digital. I'm going to generalize for you.

1. Source format (camcorder choice) for ultimate output to DVD TV set top DVD player. Keep in mind that no matter what source format you choose, the output format for use on set top TV DVD players will always be MPEG-2 for standard definition video.

Standard definition video for DVD TV playback is ntsc 720x480. That is not what you get from a digital camera. You get 640x480 of highly compressed video. ( not to mention compression codec conflicts will torture you.)

2. How edit friendly is your source video format? The most practical format to use for trouble free editing is in fact MiniDV.

MiniDV video is formatted to the dv-avi ntsc 720x480 format. This is "FRAME ACCURATE" lightly compressed digital video. I'll explain 'frame accurate" in a second.

3. Backup storage and in field access to recordable media.

Do you want to save any of your footage. If so MiniDV once again is the perfect media. Do you concern yourself of running out of space on your camcorder while shooting? If so MiniDV is the perfect solution. Tape storage and tape changing are the best ways to archive your work without jumping through hoops.

Now, back to editing and the term I used "frame accurate". Here are some numbers.

Uncompressed (raw) full information digital video is about 65 gigabytes per hour.

Lightly compressed (frame accurate) MiniDV digital video is about 13 gigabytes per hour.

Highly compressed (GOP accurate) digital video is about 4 gigabytes per hour. This is the format used on hard drive camcorders. It is an MPEG format and a PRESENTATION FORMAT not an EDITING FORMAT.

Now that's not to say you can't edit mpeg video because you can. It just becomes more problematic and involved the more you want to edit.

No one ever that I've spoken to INITIALLY INTENDS to do much editing, but once they get involved, and learn the capabilities, that changes. Often times they are handcuffed by the MPEG format their camcorder produces.

Lightly compressed digital video is frame accurate. That means that while each frame has compressed digital information in it, each video frame is a complete frame unto itself.

Not so with MPEG highly compressed video. GOP compression (Group Of Pictures) is a compression method that takes information from ONE FRAME of video and so long as the scene doesn't change drastically OMITS that information on all subsequent frames of video within the group. That may be 15 to 20 frames of video before another full frame of video is compressed.

Here's where the MPEG editing becomes a problem. Say you want to make an edit at 01:22:12:09 Hrs, Mins, Secs, Frms. of your video. The ONE full frame of video information that feeds the 15 to 20 frames of compressed video is the only real frame with information. So to edit this one frame you want, your computer, your computer software and your system resources have to but up to the task of completely rebuilding this GOP.

Doesn't sound bad but if you are affecting 100 GOPs the process slows the computer down quite a bit if it isn't up to the task.

Next, of course since a compressed video is being modified, the output quality is affected since the compression type is "lossy" which means you change something you loose digital information.

Next problem that is commonly encountered with trying to edit MPEG formatted video is "field order". Standard definition video for TV is interleaved. Each frame is made up of two fields. An upper and a lower. MPEG editors commonly have issues with which field to display first. The resulting burned DVD when played on a TV displays very jittery.

Bottom line, any MPEG based camcorder is great for a quick shoot so long as you have no fear of filling up he hard drive in the field ( then you're SOL) and no real concerns ever for in depth editing. (by that I mean transitions, titles, special effects) and so on. Remember MPEG format is an output format not designed for editing.

Now for software. If you must use one of these hard drive camcorders, at least be sure you pick an editing program that supports "NATIVE" mpeg editing. What that means is the sofware will still have to decode and re-encode your edited GOPs, but it won't have to edit your entire clip.

Higher end video editing software usually will not support NATIVE mpeg video editing. It will edit mpegs but what it does is totally and completely decode you ENTIRE video even if you only want to edit one second of a 1 hour video. It will be forced to decode, and encode the whole video just to accommodate your one second edit.

I use Adobe Premiere Pro, but I would recommend to you the ULEAD Video Studio program. It supports native mpeg editing. Stay away from Pinnacle. No matter what you buy, its is always the best idea to try the demo on your system.

By the way it is true that to download video from a MiniDV camcorder to your PC you will need a Firewire port. The cards cost about 15 bucks on Newegg.com and plug into an open PCI slot on your computer. No software drivers are needed when you use WindowsXP so its no big deal.

USB based digital video transfers present another whole set of nighmare possibilities, so again. IMHO MiniDV, Firewire and Ulead, NICE trouble free work and built in automatic backups when you take the tape out. :)
 
Suppose the only "editing" you want to do is to cut out sections of your video where nothing is happening? For instance, you record yourself shooting ten straight-in shots and you want to edit out the parts where you're moving around the table, taking the object ball out of the pocket, etc. All you want to see is your stance and stroke, and then your stance and stroke again, ten times in a row. Can you do that base level of editing with MPEG video?
 
Windows Movie Maker is easy and free -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/moviemaker2.mspx

There was another thread a few months back asking about other editing software which could support overlay graphics to do things like show trajectory, support drawing tools and whatnot. There are some products out there for that -- but for simple editing and subtitles like what's being discussed here, I think Windows Movie Maker is great.
 
I transfer video from my miniDVD camera by simply putting the miniDVD in the DVD drive on my computer and copying the video file.

No firwire needed.

btw: Can anyone recommend a video camera that deals better with low light recording as is often encountered when videoing pool?

Colin
 
I had to record some speeches for this class, and I had a little camera that me and my friends had spent about 250$ on to tape ourselves playing pool. It taped to the tiny dvd's which you can put right in a computer, and then we just edited where we needed to with Windows Movie Maker, which I think is still free.
 
Still_Learning said:
Suppose the only "editing" you want to do is to cut out sections of your video where nothing is happening? For instance, you record yourself shooting ten straight-in shots and you want to edit out the parts where you're moving around the table, taking the object ball out of the pocket, etc. All you want to see is your stance and stroke, and then your stance and stroke again, ten times in a row. Can you do that base level of editing with MPEG video?
Click to expand...

Yes you can. Keep in mind we are talking standard definition video and not high def which is totally another story. This is about the extent I'd be willing to lend to editing MPEG although there are big software advances in attempting to deal with folks who want to edit mpeg.

The key words above are "attempting to deal with". Because nothing you do can make GOP editing mpeg video as easy and trouble free and flexable as AVI editing.

www.womble.com is a place to look for software specific to mpeg editing. But again, from my view I see no reason to flirt with mpeg editing when it's not necessary, and I see no reason to risk limiting creativity when it's not necessary.

Don't only take my word for it, here is a spot to look.

http://tangentsoft.net/video/mpeg/edit.html

The thing is mpeg hard drive and mini DVD camcorders are so attractive as a quick recording format that it sells well with the masses of less informed folks.

MiniDV tape offers higher quality, easier editing and instant backups of your original shoots on a media that will last longer than burned DVDs.

MiniDVD and hard drive camcorders offer faster transfer to burned DVD and one less step in accomplishing that.

IMO the trade off nowhere equals the drawbacks. Talk to your average Best Buy or Circuit City salesman and they will tell you whatever you want to hear.

ps. The free Windows Movie Maker is an AVI editor. It does NOT support Native Mpeg editing nor on its own can it save to the mpeg format. It is extremely limited in its features. It will read Mpeg video, splice it, and save to DV-AVI or possibly WMV for internet or computer playback video. Windows XP does NOT ship with an mpeg codec. A third party sofware is needed to encode to mpeg video.

Every time you transcode (encode/decode from one format to another) you lose quality, time and risk tons of issues including field order, and audio sync. issues.

WHY? :shrug:


edit ...
Truth is, if you already have an old analog video camcorder, buying just an analog to digital external video converter (a good one that encodes to dv-avi) for about 125 bucks is a great way to go as well.
 
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Here is my "buyers guide" to cameras. Ive owned TONS of cameras from Hi8, Dig8, MiniDV, HD mpeg2 and full HD.

1. MiniDVD cameras - If all you want to do is shoot and play it on your tv... then this may be your best bet. Its simple, but VERY limited.

2. Hard drive cameras - great concept, but hard drives are bad news. The smallest bump, and they will crash.

3. MiniDV camera - No longer the way to go. Tapes can be a pain... and build up. Ive got two HUGE boxes full of them! Cameras with "heads" can really mess up your picture if your heads are not taken care of properly (and I dont mean a head cleaner) Capturing is a pain. Takes too long and also wears down the heads. Unless your shooting at DV (720x480) on a good DV camera, your picture is compressed. HDV is a compressed picture going on a tape.

4. SD memory cameras - THE BEST WAY TO GO. Recording straight to SD memory is the BEST. First off, you can drop your camera off of a mountain and your media will be fine. Solid State memory is rugged and will last forever. Its also easy. Its as easy as taking pictures with a digital camera and transferring to your computer. Quick and painless.

I just picked up a Canon HF10 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16186) to film my new child... and pool :) Its small enough to fit in my cue case along with a mini tripod. Its also HD. Even with the MPEG compression, the 1080P picture looks STUNNING for a consumer camera and only $800!

If you want to go a more professional route, I would recommend the Panasonic HVX200. Also HD, but without the MPEG compression. Its an amazing camera, but its around $5k!
 
3andstop said:
Yes you can. Keep in mind we are talking standard definition video and not high def which is totally another story. This is about the extent I'd be willing to lend to editing MPEG although there are big software advances in attempting to deal with folks who want to edit mpeg.
Click to expand...


Just to be sure we are on the same page,(the original poster and I that is) I assumed the poster was thinking of a solid simple solution under 200 bucks. You can't even burn a high def DVD without blu-ray, not to mention to play it back you need a high def dvd player, and of course a high def TV and certainly a much higher end computer to edit your (MPEG-4 btw) video. Even if we were to assume you had the Hot Rod computer and the high def TV for playback, we are still talking 10x that 200 bucks to get it all together for TV viewing.

It is a beautiful reproduction, but we are talking an entirely different animal.
 
video editing methods

Matt_24 said:
I want to make some pool videos, etc and wanted some advice on some good Digital Camcorders and video editing software. I'm not looking to do anything fancy....just some basic editing with perhaps a few subtitles.

Is there a machine you need other than your computer to transfer these videos to a DVD (say if you wanted to do it in more of a bulk format)?

To all of you tech gurus out there, thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
FYI, the equipment, methods, and software I use are described here:


I send a master DVD to a commercial a "replicator" (replication is much better than burning) to get large numbers made.

Happy producing,
Dave
 
3andstop said:
Just to be sure we are on the same page,(the original poster and I that is) I assumed the poster was thinking of a solid simple solution under 200 bucks. You can't even burn a high def DVD without blu-ray, not to mention to play it back you need a high def dvd player, and of course a high def TV and certainly a much higher end computer to edit your (MPEG-4 btw) video. Even if we were to assume you had the Hot Rod computer and the high def TV for playback, we are still talking 10x that 200 bucks to get it all together for TV viewing.

It is a beautiful reproduction, but we are talking an entirely different animal.
Click to expand...

The original poster wanted a solution for "good Digital Camcorders"... Good luck under $200.

I was just running him though all of his options and telling him what I personally thing is the best for him. Not because its HD, but because its easy.

Either way, I think your very misinformed about what it takes to put something together. It doesnt take a "hotrod" computer to handle MPEG4... infact, quite the opposite. MPEG4 has a smaller file size than any MiniDV solution. And once the HD video is on your computer(which doesnt take long), its cheap/free to burn your movies to a DVD to play on ANY DVD player or FREE to put your movies on youtube.

You dont need A blu-ray player or an HDTV or a "hotrod" computer to enjoy your HD videos.
 
cleary said:
Either way, I think your very misinformed about what it takes to put something together. It doesnt take a "hotrod" computer to handle MPEG4... infact, quite the opposite. MPEG4 has a smaller file size than any MiniDV solution. And once the HD video is on your computer(which doesnt take long), its cheap/free to burn your movies to a DVD to play on ANY DVD player or FREE to put your movies on youtube.

You dont need A blu-ray player or an HDTV or a "hotrod" computer to enjoy your HD videos.
Click to expand...

Cleary, I don't want to turn this into a debate, please look into your information regarding mpeg4 HD. Here is a good source of information.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/f1

The smaller file size of mpeg4 is EXACTLY the reason it takes more PC power to edit than dv-avi. Your memory card format is even more difficult to deal with than HDV video.

There is NO DIGITAL VIDEO in the world that is edited while in its compressed state.

ALL digital video, regardless of its format, has to be decoded, (expanded) edited, and re- encoded after editing. This is the job of the NLE (non linear editing) software.

The more the compression (smaller file) the more demanding the decoding and encoding process is for a computer. This isn't an opinion its simply a fact.

You may be thinking about being easier on a computer storage wise. That has nothing to do with processor power, that is merely hard drive size.

Yeah,AVCHD takes up less room on a computer to store, but it more than makes up for its storage size when your video editing software has to produce tons of huge temporary expansion files on that hard drive to deal with the decoding and encoding while you are editing.

You can't put AVCHD video on a standard DVD and expect to view it in high definition on most set to DVD players. Most DVD players require mpeg2 standard definition video. Only very few accept DivX.

The AVCHD video has to be down converted and transcoded first by the computer software to ntsc 720x480 mpeg2 for most DVD players.

Of all the current digital video formats it is common knowledge that AVCHD is the trickiest to work with.

As far as the under 200 buck is concerned. Shoot, just go to ebay and type in miniDV and you will find any number of fine camcorder such as the Panasonic pv-gs series of camcorder which is a great choice for these type uses ranging in price from 75 dollars and up.

Anyway, I hope everyone has good luck in their endeavors. :)
 
Sony DCR-SR82 camcorder.

I use the sony DCR-SR82 camcorder. It has a 60gb hard drive. I can record quite a bit and then download to my computer and turn it into dvd, avi, mp4 or whatever. I use a tripod and record 2-3 hour straight pool matches. I think it holds about 20 hours, maybe more.

I bought it about a year ago. No problems. Don't know if they have better products for similar $$ available now.
 
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