discussion on stance

macguy

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Today, 04:38 AM
While Ray may have posted this, he says the exact opposite in his own book, 99 Critical Shots. The first chapter speaks to the importance of good fundamentals. People who don't believe fundamentals are important will likely struggle with consistency...unless perhaps you play 8-10 hrs a day...FOR YEARS...and even then you may or may not play well. Good mechanics are a stepping stone to a better game, and imo are the first step towards a confident stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolSharkAllen View Post
Here's the comment made by Ray Martin:


Well it is about time someone woke up,i agree, over a period of 50 yrs i have seen champions and great players stand differant they do not tilt there heads the same and arms some straight down some out a little and some in a little, the only thing that counts is how he or she strikes the cue ball. there is no magic bullet to playing better pool it is work.
Ray Martin


Professional BCA Instructor
 
I don't think Ray was saying that it doesn't matter what you do at all. It seems to me that he means there numerous ways to get the job done and there are no secrets.

As for the no instructors thing, people improve marginally because they don't practice properly. You can play your 10,000 hours but there is no guarantee that you will EVER get your cue consistently on the line of aim and if your not doing that then you will never play up to your potential.
 
PocketPoint5 said:
Try and explain that to Scott. But the league players will just keep funneling money to the instructors, and they will only improve marginally.

Here's the key. You get lessons, you see improvement, so you think the lessons helped you improve.

YOU WILL NATURALLY IMPROVE ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU ARE PLAYING MORE AND MORE. YOU ARE BOUND TO IMPROVE ANYWAY.

You need to hit 1,000,000 balls before your stroke is straight. It does not matter if you sit with Earl Strickland 24 hours a day, you still need to hit a million balls.
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If you really want to get the most out of hitting those 1,000,000 balls you would be better served learning to do it right. All playing wrong does is help you to get away with mistakes through repetition, in other words you will become a better player in spite of yourself, but is not the road to reaching your maximum potential.

Some people are un-trainable, that is just a fact ask any sports coach. But give them a player with some raw talent and a players with the ability to learn and they will turn out a first class athlete. This stuff by the way is not just speculation or theory, books have been written on the subject and it has been studied for years. Take any two players of any sport there is; give one an instructor and let the other try to play and learn by trial and error and I can tell you which one will become the better player. The biggest waste is talent that never developed due often to a players own arrogance and inability listen and learn.
 
macguy said:
Today, 04:38 AM
While Ray may have posted this, he says the exact opposite in his own book, 99 Critical Shots. The first chapter speaks to the importance of good fundamentals. People who don't believe fundamentals are important will likely struggle with consistency...unless perhaps you play 8-10 hrs a day...FOR YEARS...and even then you may or may not play well. Good mechanics are a stepping stone to a better game, and imo are the first step towards a confident stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolSharkAllen View Post
Here's the comment made by Ray Martin:

Well it is about time someone woke up,i agree, over a period of 50 yrs i have seen champions and great players stand differant they do not tilt there heads the same and arms some straight down some out a little and some in a little, the only thing that counts is how he or she strikes the cue ball. there is no magic bullet to playing better pool it is work.

Ray Martin

Professional BCA Instructor
Click to expand...




Truthfully I don't see a difference between the two statements above because Ray is only talking about champions. I agree with Scott - there can be major flaws that prevent consstency.

What if Ray had said:


Well it is about time someone woke up,i agree, over a period of 50 yrs i have seen hacks who stand differant they do not tilt there heads the same and arms some straight down some out a little and some in a little, the only thing that counts is how he or she strikes the cue ball. They can't hit the ball worth a crap and should take up bowling for chissakes.

There is no magic bullet to playing better but if you can't hit the cue ball the same place twice, you're never going to be any good.

Ray Martin

The word "stance" is misleading. I take that as how a player "sets-up" to the shot. There are many stances in pool. It sounds like Ray is talking about the mechanics of the stroke, which could have a lot of idiosyncrasies.

Golf is probably the most anal of all sports in terms of established fundamentals. There are many philosophies and thoughts. Since the entire body moves, there are a lot of discussions about stance.

I'll never forget Jack Nicklaus' line to dismiss arguments about differences in "mechanics" - he would say "at impact all pros pretty much look the same".

What he was saying is despite differences, ultimately it does come down to delivering the clubface precisely to the ball at the desired angle, position and speed. If you can't do that and you want to play the game, you better figure out why.

Here's an example. My buddy is a tall guy who has natural laser-like shotmaking ala Johnny Archer. When he would get nervous, he would bob his head up and down like a chicken over the shot. I could tell when he was going to miss by his pronounced head movement - a good 4 - 6 inches or more up and down - moving with the stroke. Then he would slowly rise before the final stroke.

I pointed this out to him and he was unaware of it. He worked on it, along with other things, and somehow corrected it over a period of time. The difference in appearance with his now rock solid head is amazing (well, it actually moves an inch or so) - he looks like a pro now. He's winning tournaments too. Without this correction, I don't think he could have done it.

Chris
 
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look at the pictures and video

Stance: Both legs dead square braced firmly against the table. That is how most of us will shoot many shots on a nine foot or bigger table. Proper stance is a wonderful thing to build fundamentals but nobody will make it far past C level if they can't deliver a shot from almost any stance when they need to. Is your left handed stance the same as your right handed stance? How about your behind the back shot stance? Is it textbook? The arm across the body which I sometimes use in preference to behind the back or offhanded as I get older and stiffer?

Building a perfect stance is a wonderful thing because it lets you shoot maybe 80-90% of your shots with the exact stance and stroke you want to use but if you can't deliver a stroke or aim a shot when you aren't in perfect position that other 10-20% of shots is going to make sure you are never competitive.

Much the same is true of stroke. While a perfect stroke perfectly executed is a thing of beauty one stroke hit exactly as recommended will never get the job done. Also I've never seen an instructor that practices what he preaches in actual play. Even in instruction you see and hear a pendulum stroke recommended with contact with the cue ball being made when the forearm is perpendicular to the floor or the cue stick. Good advice, but very very few people do this in actual play. Look no further than pro video along with the instructional video's and images in the books when the instructor isn't trying to illustrate the perfect time to hit the cue ball and the vast majority of instructors and the vast majority of pro's hit the ball later in their stroke. One reason that follow-through is critical for most, if they start decelerating at the point they may believe they hit the cue ball with a perfect pendulum they will be decelerating when they hit the cue ball. A lot of bad things happen then including stroke misalignment due to the muscles in almost anyone's arms not being perfectly balanced.

The golfer dedicates years to developing a perfect stance and stroke on perfectly flat level ground. Then he may have to execute on a hillside, out of the side of a sand trap, contorted around a tree, in the bleachers, on and on. The Golden Bear once blasted a ball out of seven inches of water! The pool player is the same. Developing perfection in perfect circumstances is nice but a player has to be able to execute when stance, stroke, and sight lines are all far less than perfect too. There is many a low level player that shoots beautiful drills but doesn't get there in competition. The mental game is often the issue but those shots from less than perfect positions that they see a lot of when playing more experienced players have a lot to do with it too.

Seek perfection in stance and stroke. It is a very good starting point. However to be a winner it is only a starting point.

Hu
 
IMO, people like PocketPoint have completely misinterpreted Ray Martin's comment.

Ray is not advocating that players not learn the proper fundamentals from qualified instructors. Ray is simply saying that over time some players and even champion players have modified their stroke or stance or grip in a way that uniquely suits them.

I think Fran Crimi's post from another thread says it best on why good fundamentals are so important:

Sure, anybody can learn to play with bad form with repetition. They can also learn to deal with body aches resulting from shooting with their little 'quirks,' and fatigue from standing for so many hours off-balance in a tournament. Sure, anyone can teach themselves to play well like that.

But why? Is torture and fatigue the smarter way to go than efficiency and balance?

Anyone ever take golf or tennis lessons? Ever listen to the commentary during a golf or tennis tournament? It's all about form. Not only does good form maximize your performance level, but your body will thank you for it in later years.​
 
Any stance will be painful over long session providing you are old enough.

Instructor can show you general way of standing.
Unfortunately, instructor cannot force you into an optimal position, it is up to the player because only he can feel what is right.
Observe the results and make adjustments, it takes time and practice.
You can learn the general stance by yourself just by observation of top players. Physical characteristics come to play as well.


The stance will be different depending if you are shooting to the right, left, straight up, long shots, short shots etc.
No such thing as one stance for all shots, which complicates everything.
 
Thanks for the nod PoolSharkAllan. Much appreciated.

I'll never forget my first golf lesson. I had a slicing problem. My instructor adjusted my stance and it felt 100% awful. I actually remember saying to him, "If I have to stand this way, I may have to quit." That's how awful it felt. He told me to just hit the ball and try to forget for a minute how uncomfortable I was feeling. I did, and it went straight down the middle.

It took me a couple of months to get used to my new alignment. There were times during those months that I seriously contemplated quitting. I had been playing golf since I was 14 and this was 20 years later.

I learned that sometimes you can fall into something that's right and it feels great, but sometimes you have to struggle with something that feels awful for awhile. It all depends on how ingrained your old haibits were and how far off the mark you were.
 
FranCrimi said:
It took me a couple of months to get used to my new alignment. There were times during those months that I seriously contemplated quitting. I had been playing golf since I was 14 and this was 20 years later.
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Many players try something new for about 5 minutes, and then abandon it when they don't see immediate results. Back in 1988, Cowboy Jimmy Moore showed me a different type of grip to generate follow action on the cue ball. I was unable to hold the cue and deliver the cue properly. I whined and complained the entire time. He said to me, "Keep at it, some day it will become second nature to you. It's not your way of doing things, and resisting the resistance to change is half the battle."

He was right.
 
With enough time and desire, any funky stance and stroke can be made to work. I've seen some great players with ugly technique. The vast majority of good players have good fundamentals. With good technique, you hit the cue ball where you want more consistently. When you're hitting the ball where you want, you can start learning how to get different reactions from the cue ball.
 
The difficulty with trying something new is that over the course of play you start drifting to the old way.
Sooner, or later ending up somewhere in between the old and new which just doesn’t work.
If you change one thing, you are changing another, law of two’s.
 
Rays book was not about basics, or how to play, it was about how to make 99 shots. Many of them were 14.1 shots, and that game is now dead. You also have to be careful about reading books that are now, 30-40 years old, because a lot of what's in them, has now changed.

Many of these older 14.1 players, including Mosconi, has very narrow stances with their feet, almost together, and today we see wide stances.

They held the cue forward, today, they hold the cue back on the butt almost.

They were very upright, today, all are much lower.

Just find your own stance, one that is balanced, that feels natural, and allows the cue to hang in place like a hinge.

Never copy a pros stance. Find your own.
 
macguy said:
Today, 04:38 AM
While Ray may have posted this, he says the exact opposite in his own book, 99 Critical Shots. The first chapter speaks to the importance of good fundamentals. People who don't believe fundamentals are important will likely struggle with consistency...unless perhaps you play 8-10 hrs a day...FOR YEARS...and even then you may or may not play well. Good mechanics are a stepping stone to a better game, and imo are the first step towards a confident stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolSharkAllen View Post
Here's the comment made by Ray Martin:


Well it is about time someone woke up,i agree, over a period of 50 yrs i have seen champions and great players stand differant they do not tilt there heads the same and arms some straight down some out a little and some in a little, the only thing that counts is how he or she strikes the cue ball. there is no magic bullet to playing better pool it is work.
Ray Martin


Professional BCA Instructor
Click to expand...

They stand different because their bodies are different, not because they chose to be different or that they have a choice. If they are champion, they share a lot of traits of other champions. Some will deviate, but not by much.

Bridge length has a specific formula based on years of trial and error. That's where it needs to be. But if you are playing out of its advised zone you'll be swimming uphill against a guy playing right.

Stance also has its specifics.
 
Curly Howard said:
Rays book was not about basics, or how to play, it was about how to make 99 shots. Many of them were 14.1 shots, and that game is now dead. You also have to be careful about reading books that are now, 30-40 years old, because a lot of what's in them, has now changed.

Many of these older 14.1 players, including Mosconi, has very narrow stances with their feet, almost together, and today we see wide stances.

They held the cue forward, today, they hold the cue back on the butt almost.

They were very upright, today, all are much lower.

Just find your own stance, one that is balanced, that feels natural, and allows the cue to hang in place like a hinge.

Never copy a pros stance. Find your own.
Click to expand...
I can't completely disagree with you but if you saw many of those older players actually play and not just posing for a camera you would have seen something much different. Mosconi would often have his chin close to the cue, same with Lassiter.

http://www.billiardsexpert.com/images/lutherlassister1.jpg
Trust me, he didn't look anything like this when he played.

For Mosconi this is a closer representation of what he looked like when he was playing. This is just a lag, if he was shooting say a long cut he would be way down on the cue. Notice the stance, it is a bit like I mentioned about Camp with the weight shifted to the back leg.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/Mosconi&Moore.png/710px-Mosconi&Moore.png

Some like Danny DLiliberto have a close stance but squat bending both legs, Jimmy Reid also squats. I used to watch Marcel Camp play and he bent his back leg and his front leg was straight seeming to lean backwards. They all may have looked different but in the end did a lot of the same things just with a different approach.
 
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macguy said:
I can't completely disagree with you but if you saw many of those older players actually play and not just posing for a camera you would have seen something much different. Mosconi would often have his chin close to the cue, same with Lassiter.

http://www.billiardsexpert.com/images/lutherlassister1.jpg
Trust me, he didn't look anything like this when he played.

For Mosconi this is a closer representation of what he looked like when he was playing. This is just a lag, if he was shooting say a long cut he would be way down on the cue.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/Mosconi&Moore.png/710px-Mosconi&Moore.png

Some like Danny DLiliberto have a close stance but squat bending both legs, Jimmy Reid also squats. I used to watch Marcel Camp play and he bent his back leg and his front leg was straight seeming to lean backwards. They all may have looked different but in the end did a lot of the same things just with a different approach.
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If you look at your own photos, it shows what I just said, Willies feet close together, grips up on the cue, and his chin is a foot above the cue, Moore is two feet above the cue, they were never low on the cue, none of them, including Luther, they were all fairly upright, which proves, pool can be played that way. Most 3-cushion pros today, are fairly upright. It proves, there is not one way to stand, many different stances won big over the years. Archer is about 3" off of the cue, which to me, seems about right, something most can do, few can get that chin on the cue and not cripple their selves in the process.
 
macguy...Marcel Camp??? Didn't he play with Greenleaf? Just how OLD are you sir? LOL I'm thinking near 100...and you must have been a kid or teenager when you saw Camp play. :D J/K...kinda!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

macguy said:
I used to watch Marcel Camp play and he bent his back leg and his front leg was straight seeming to lean backwards.
Click to expand...
 
Following your method of several hundred balls a day, how much time would you say it takes to develop a straight stroke?

What about the little things in life.....job, wife, children. Not all of us have the luxury or time do to nothing else but play pool.

Which is why I choose to do specific drills that provide me immediate feedback.

As far as position, patterns, and the mental game they are all important factors to be sure. However, if you cannot deliver the cue tip through the cue-ball with any degree of consistency, you will really struggle with them.




PocketPoint6 said:
Let's put it this way.....

Stand any way you want. Hit several hundred balls per day.

Over time, you will develop a straight stroke.

If you pay an instructor to help you with your stance, you will still need to hit those several hundred balls per day to develop a straight stroke.

So stand however you want.

YOU ARE BETTER OFF SPENDING YOUR TIME WORKING ON POSITION, PATTERNS, AND THE MENTAL GAME.

YOU NEED TO GET OUT THERE AND CHALLENGE YOURSELF.
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I do't think it really matters how you stand with in reason. As long as your solid, can sight down the cue, the cue clears your body, and you can hit the CB where you want and straight and repeatable. I do think beginers should try to start with a classic stance and change it a little over time for comfort if needed. (just change one thing at a time). Johnnyt
 
Come on Mini Me, take your own advice get out there and challenge yourself, I am waiting for your game in Southern Maryland.

I am only a lowly league player, you should have no problems getting into my head on my 9 foot double shimmed GC II.



PocketPoint6 said:
Let's put it this way.....

Stand any way you want. Hit several hundred balls per day.

Over time, you will develop a straight stroke.

If you pay an instructor to help you with your stance, you will still need to hit those several hundred balls per day to develop a straight stroke.

So stand however you want.

YOU ARE BETTER OFF SPENDING YOUR TIME WORKING ON POSITION, PATTERNS, AND THE MENTAL GAME.

YOU NEED TO GET OUT THERE AND CHALLENGE YOURSELF.
Click to expand...
 
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