Do You Spot A Ball Hanging Over the Line Or On The Line?

[KoolKat9Lives]

Please vote on this poll before reading the posts. You're playing a ring game of 9 ball and the guy before you scratched. You get ball in hand in the kitchen.

But the one ball is "hanging over" the head string. The bottom of the ball is not touching the line, but part of it definitely overhangs the line. Does it spot?

If you believe different leagues or tournaments have different rules governing this, please vote based on if you were playing a gambling ring game in the US.



Thanks for playing,

Matt

 

[mdavis228]

I've always understood the definition of in or out of the kitchen to be dependent on the point where the ball touches the cloth. If that point is on, or outside of, the headstring, the ball is out of the kitchen. If that point is inside the headstring, the ball is in the kitchen. Hanging over doesn't have anything to do with it.
Where's Jay?

 

[metallicane]

I would go with Jay too.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I would go with Jay too.

I know Jay's position, it was discussed before. He will state if any part is overhanging, it spots. However, two long time pool playing addict experts and AZ posters at my home hall last night disagreed. One, AZ's nancewayne, said "I've been playing for 50 years and more than half the ball must be in the kitchen to spot. If the bottom of it is dead on the line, it does not spot."

AZ's EZMoney cited "North Carolina" rules stating in all his years that Carolinians spot it when the bottom touches the line.

I hope you two don't mind me quoting your thoughts here. :thumbup:

I find it amazing that this simple rule has 3 different interpretations amongst long standing players.

I think this poll, if people vote what they believe and not read the thread first, will show just how divided we are on this very important rule.

I should find the link for the rule book... Which rule book governs this?

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I'm so confused, I wanna suck my thumb and clutch my blanky

From the WPBA website, it says don't spot unless more than half is in the kitchen... Jay, have I misremembered your ruling on this or is there more to the story?

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1000671

"CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player's scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball."

 

[sfleinen]

Matt:

I think the only "controversy," if you will, is not the idea of whether a ball "overhangs" the spot (that is clearly defined in the WPA rules), but rather what to do if the ball's resting/contact point on the cloth is smack-dab on the headstring? Notice the bolded areas below -- one says the ball doesn't spot, the other says it does. Now also keep in mind when the WPA rules say "...base of the object ball is on or below the head string," when they say "below," they mean in reference to the head-end of the table -- i.e. "above" is in the kitchen, "below" is not.

According to the WPA rules, a ball contacting the cloth smack-dab on the headstring line is "a legal ball" and can be shot at where it lies -- therefore it does not spot.

So Wayne Nance's stance agrees with the WPA rules, and is correct.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

I know Jay's position, it was discussed before. He will state if any part is overhanging, it spots. However, two long time pool playing addict experts and AZ posters at my home hall last night disagreed. One, AZ's nancewayne, said "I've been playing for 50 years and more than half the ball must be in the kitchen to spot. If the bottom of it is dead on the line, it does not spot."

AZ's EZMoney cited "North Carolina" rules stating in all his years that Carolinians spot it when the bottom touches the line.

I hope you two don't mind me quoting your thoughts here. :thumbup:

I find it amazing that this simple rule has 3 different interpretations amongst long standing players.

I think this poll, if people vote what they believe and not read the thread first, will show just how divided we are on this very important rule.

I should find the link for the rule book... Which rule book governs this?

From the WPBA website, it says don't spot unless more than half is in the kitchen... Jay, have I misremembered your ruling on this or is there more to the story?

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1000671

"CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player's scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball."

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Thanks Sean. I tried searching Jay's posts for when I recall him discussing this, but the man has more posts than a fence factory! :wink:

I pm'd him and asked his contribution.

 

[EZMoney]

So many rules

There are many versions or interputations of rules governing games in billiards. I guess that's because these games have been around for years. The important thing here is to know what rules your opponent subcribes to. I don't think either way is correct or incorrect its just that you dance with who brought you. Or in Rome do as the Romans do.

 

[mdavis228]

I just looked in the BCA rules area...
They are very clear that the kitchen is the area behind the headstring, and that the kitchen does not include the headstring.
This supports the contention (which includes the understanding I stated) that balls are spotted only when they are IN the kitchen. If they are sitting ON the headstring, they are NOT IN the kitchen, and can therefore legally be shot where they sit, INCLUDING being shot with a cue ball that is in the kitchen - in spite of the fact that the point of contact and the base of the cue ball will be in the kitchen when the shot is made.
This isn't all that hard to understand, and I don't believe it is any change from what has been posted in the BCA rules for decades.
You're right though, Matt. It's amazing to have so much dissent on such a tiny matter. All this "over half, or less than half, or approximately between a half & a quarter on odd days that end in Y, or...".

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here are the rules. From Rule 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand :

An object ball that rests exactly on the head string is playable.​

Of course, bars, leagues, rogue tournament directors, and others can make up any rule they please, but proliferation of unofficial rule sets if fundamentally destructive to the game.

 

[jay helfert]

Here are the rules. From Rule 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand :

An object ball that rests exactly on the head string is playable.​

Of course, bars, leagues, rogue tournament directors, and others can make up any rule they please, but proliferation of unofficial rule sets if fundamentally destructive to the game.

Thanks Bob. The rule for years whether a ball was inside the line or not was determined by "the base of the ball." Meaning just over half the ball must be outside the line to shoot at it. This was the rule used in tournament play when balls were spotted, or when players got ball in hand behind the line. It is also important in determining where the cue ball may be placed on the table, and still remain behind the line. Is it the base of the ball or touching the line?

But this is a rule that has always been subject to local interpretations. In many places and many poolrooms they still play that the whole ball must be outside the line ("the edge of the ball"). It is played this way in many bars and bar leagues. To this day you will find different interpretations of this rule in different parts of the country, and overseas as well.

It is not a bad idea to check how they are playing this rule if you are in a tournament (14.1 or One Pocket) where it could come up. Even at DCC I see One Pocket players asking how they are playing balls on the line. Bottom line - there is no uniform rule that is adhered to everywhere.

 

[smoooothstroke]

cue ball

I have always played the base of the ball for object balls,this seams to be the most prevalent.

For the CB would it also be the base of the ball?One fella that I play 1P with checks to make sure the whole CB is in the kitchen when I break.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I have always played the base of the ball for object balls,this seams to be the most prevalent.

For the CB would it also be the base of the ball?One fella that I play 1P with checks to make sure the whole CB is in the kitchen when I break.

We now should know that being in the kitchen, regardless if it's an object ball or the cue ball, requires the base of the ball to be inside, or "above" the head string. Your one pocket guy could be corrected.

Interestingly enough, only 29% of the voters (so far) in this poll got the correct answer according to commonly accepted governing rules!

Spread the word. It's all base ball! Thanks to all for posting.

 

[pooltchr]

. You're playing a ring game of 9 ball and the guy before you scratched. You get ball in hand in the kitchen.


Matt

What rules are you using? I have always played that in 9-ball, any foul, regardless of whether it is on the break or not, is ball in hand anywhere. I've never heard of BIH in the kitchen when playing 9-ball.

The question would come up in OP or 8-ball, and in those cases, an OB touching or beyond the headstring can be shot. But then, I've not heard of spotting a ball that is in the kitchen either.

I'm confused.

Steve

 

[iusedtoberich]

To pooltchr, the original poster used an example from a ring game of 9 ball, which is played BIH behind the line. This situation comes up all the time in one-hole.

In my area, everyone plays "whole ball must be past", which of course is the wrong way, but it is what it is.

I have a question on the phrase "base of the ball". I understand from a mathematical standpoint, there is a singular POINT that is defined by the tangency of the ball and the table. This is exactly below the center point of the ball.

However, when we put our heads to the cloth and look at the "base of the ball" because of the fuzz of the cloth, and other factors, it looks like a small patch of maybe 1/4 inch is touching the cloth, instead of only a singular point.

Does anyone here believe, or has seen someone refer to the base of the ball by this entire "patch" as opposed to the singular contact point? I have, and I couldn't convince the guy otherwise.

 

[pooltchr]

Even using that small patch, it would still be about the same. Consider that the head string is a line between the diamonds. How wide is the headstring? Is it just the very center of the diamonds, or the width of the diamonds?

I think at that point, it becomes a bit petty. Most of us can tell if it is "on the line" or behind the line.
Steve

 

[iusedtoberich]

Even using that small patch, it would still be about the same. Consider that the head string is a line between the diamonds. How wide is the headstring? Is it just the very center of the diamonds, or the width of the diamonds?

I think at that point, it becomes a bit petty. Most of us can tell if it is "on the line" or behind the line.
Steve

I think it deserves to be exact, which is not petty. The terminology should be changed to "exact center of the cue/object ball" and the "exact center of the diamonds defining the head string".

There should be no room for interpretation in the rules on this. It should be crystal clear. If you allow the "contact patch" of the ball to the table, and also the "width of the diamonds" you could allow a ball placement variation from one interpretation to another of close to 1/2 inch.

If you are a onepocket player, you will understand the significance of this rule being crystal clear.

 

[TX Poolnut]

I've always understood the point where the ball and cloth come together is the determining factor as to wether a ball is over the line.

 

[CreeDo]

It's pretty obvious that the only thing that matters is where the ball touches the cloth, if you're playing in the spirit of the rules.

The reason for the "Whole ball must be over" mentality is some whiner somewhere didn't like it when his opponent got a drop dead easy shot due to the ball being juuuust over the line.

So he made up a rule that the whole ball has to be over so he could dupe the other guy into shooting a much harder shot. He couldn't bear watching the other guy just pop in an easy ball from 4 inches away with CB in the kitchen.

It's the same mentality is that gave us "8 must go in clean".

 

[Pushout]

It's pretty obvious that the only thing that matters is where the ball touches the cloth, if you're playing in the spirit of the rules.

The reason for the "Whole ball must be over" mentality is some whiner somewhere didn't like it when his opponent got a drop dead easy shot due to the ball being juuuust over the line.

So he made up a rule that the whole ball has to be over so he could dupe the other guy into shooting a much harder shot. He couldn't bear watching the other guy just pop in an easy ball from 4 inches away with CB in the kitchen.

It's the same mentality is that gave us "8 must go in clean".

This is my take, also.