There are a couple of guys on my league team who are appreciably better players than me. I watch their games closely so I can learn. But now and then I see them playing shots I would never play in that situation and which often turn out to be errors of judgement. I then have to decide whether it's rude of me to point these things out later. Depends whether they won the match or not
Of course, it's always easier to criticise others' work than to produce good work of your own. That's true in any human endevour.
Just because someone is "better" than you doesn't mean they know more than you. They just are able to execute what they know better than you are able to execute what you know. I've seen some really good players take some really dumb shots. Conversely, I've seen some really bad players attempt some really good shots, but just not have the tools to execute them they way they drew it up in their head.
Whenever i see something i try it to see how it works. I always keep my mind open. I have learned more by accident about pool than i ever learned on purpose.
Every little thing you can learn with this game is huge.
My dad took me fishing when i was younger. I learned how to do everything from tying on a hook properly to netting the fish properly and everything inbetween.
It didn't take long when i would take friends with me fishing before they noticed what i was doing because i was catching most of the fish. If i was using worms and i would catch 2 or 3 fish it wouldn't take them long to switch to the worms from the minnows they were using.
But if they kept that bigger hook on their line it still didn't work very well. Soon they would learn they needed a smaller hook.
With pool we all have a vast collection of knowledge. Whenever we learn something knew we can add this to our arsenal. One more weapon in your bag.
I always keep me eyes and mind open when i'm giving lessons. I see many things that i already know but by keeping my mind open every once in awhile i pick up a real gem.
If you teach you always need to keep learning and you never know where you're going to find that gem..........
I expect that your likelihood to listen also comes with the delivery of said advice. I, as a lesser player, will often times mention something like "do you mean to be shooting that such-and-such a way" or "wasn't ball-x a better option there" as a means of deflecting that feeling of trying to give advice to the better player. And quite often I get back the response of what I had missed in the situation earlier. Though occasionally something I'm pointing out is valid to the player, too. But by trying to deliver it as a means of making my understanding it better, it sometimes makes the whole exchange easier for all concerned.
And I learn a lot more that way. Help a little, learn a lot.
Tate: I realize that there are plenty of acceptible paths here... pros can probably do the first 3 balls 20 different ways and make it work. Most of the routes are perfectly safe and have lots of "plan B" options if they don't go as planned.
What I'm trying to say is what while there are many "fine" options, some have small flaws that may cause them to not work out 1 in 50 attempts, while others will work out... say, 199 out of 200 attempts. You prune away the slightly imperfect ones and there will eventually be an ideal pattern that requires the least speed control (meaning your margin for error is huge cuz you're going on the ideal line), has the most predictable path, the least missability, the least risk of scratching or getting hooked, less force, less spin, etc. etc.
...and there are tradeoffs. Like you could leave yourself thinner on the 7 and one rail to the 8 (less force and sidespin needed)... but the tradeoff is the 7 becomes more missable and the CB is going against the line of the shot.
So, with all that, here's how I'd play the first three balls.
1. Stop shot. Can't screw it up, easy shot on the next ball, natural path to the 7. I stun a little closer to the 6 too. You could argue a short player might opt not to do that but we're effectively talking the same shot.
Why not draw to get straight in on the 7? It's tricky to draw the exact amount needed for this. If you go over or under you'll be fine, but why go to the trouble? 1 in a thousand times you might fail to draw or miscue due to some chalk issue. And if you draw a little too far, you end up with an angle sending you to the side rail. That's fine and can be dealt with but you may end up with that funny angle where you must either pound it a little to go into the rail and back out... or hold the cue ball and leave yourself a tiny bit closer to the rail than you'd like.
2. Follow, probably no sidespin or if anything a touch of right. I'd have to be shooting this to be sure that the angle shown in this aerial view leads to the line I've drawn. Once the CB reaches "B", it can travel about 1.5 feet before it's too close to the rail and uncomfortably thin.
Why not stun a little below center to "B"? Well, if you go too far you can end up stuck on the rail or straight in or both. You can play to avoid that by making sure you hit firmly to reach the rail and bounce off, but then you must hit kind of hard, and you may overcook it. Follow is more predictable and the CB is moving along the exact angle you want on the 7. The draw option is moving almost opposite that angle.
3. The typical 3 rail spinout. A touch of right and a firm hit. An old axiom of 9b position says if you can move the CB through the center of the table, you can't scratch.
This last shot might look overdone to some but the reason it works is you come in at a great angle where the 8 is shootable for almost 3.5-4 feet. The angle I want is usable for about 1.5 feet of CB travel but I can go 2 feet in either direction and be fine to shoot the 8 and get on the 9. You can even get stuck on the side rail and still play shape for the 9 by just rolling it in.
Why not get thinner on the 7 and 1 rail to the 8? You're moving more against the desired line of the shot and have a greater chance of getting too thin on the 8 or straight in on it. The angle needed to use natural top leaves you missably thin. Your natural line with follow carries you towards a scratch in the lower left corner, and there's some chance of hitting the nipple near the bottom side pocket, or getting stuck close to the rail.
Why not high+inside to 1 rail to the 8? Well sidespin can be funny, inside especially. Even more when you're hitting with enough force to move the CB 8 feet. It might take too little and send you directly against the line you want (so you're heading towards the footspot and need good speed control) or too much and send you towards the side pocket. And shooting with inside spin is a little harder to aim, you are dealing with spin-induced and collision induced throw. Whereas the outside I would use is gearing english and cancels out CIT, meaning you really don't need to account for throw at all. You can actually do this with a careful centerball hit if you want but the outside actually makes it a touch easier and makes sure you don't send the CB on a line towards a scratch in the upper left corner.
Tate: I realize that there are plenty of acceptible paths here... pros can probably do the first 3 balls 20 different ways and make it work. Most of the routes are perfectly safe and have lots of "plan B" options if they don't go as planned.
What I'm trying to say is what while there are many "fine" options, some have small flaws that may cause them to not work out 1 in 50 attempts, while others will work out... say, 199 out of 200 attempts. You prune away the slightly imperfect ones and there will eventually be an ideal pattern that requires the least speed control (meaning your margin for error is huge cuz you're going on the ideal line), has the most predictable path, the least missability, the least risk of scratching or getting hooked, less force, less spin, etc. etc.
...and there are tradeoffs. Like you could leave yourself thinner on the 7 and one rail to the 8 (less force and sidespin needed)... but the tradeoff is the 7 becomes more missable and the CB is going against the line of the shot.
So, with all that, here's how I'd play the first three balls.
1. Stop shot. Can't screw it up, easy shot on the next ball, natural path to the 7. I stun a little closer to the 6 too. You could argue a short player might opt not to do that but we're effectively talking the same shot.
Why not draw to get straight in on the 7? It's tricky to draw the exact amount needed for this. If you go over or under you'll be fine, but why go to the trouble? 1 in a thousand times you might fail to draw or miscue due to some chalk issue. And if you draw a little too far, you end up with an angle sending you to the side rail. That's fine and can be dealt with but you may end up with that funny angle where you must either pound it a little to go into the rail and back out... or hold the cue ball and leave yourself a tiny bit closer to the rail than you'd like.
2. Follow, probably no sidespin or if anything a touch of right. I'd have to be shooting this to be sure that the angle shown in this aerial view leads to the line I've drawn. Once the CB reaches "B", it can travel about 1.5 feet before it's too close to the rail and uncomfortably thin.
Why not stun a little below center to "B"? Well, if you go too far you can end up stuck on the rail or straight in or both. You can play to avoid that by making sure you hit firmly to reach the rail and bounce off, but then you must hit kind of hard, and you may overcook it. Follow is more predictable and the CB is moving along the exact angle you want on the 7. The draw option is moving almost opposite that angle.
3. The typical 3 rail spinout. A touch of right and a firm hit. An old axiom of 9b position says if you can move the CB through the center of the table, you can't scratch.
This last shot might look overdone to some but the reason it works is you come in at a great angle where the 8 is shootable for almost 3.5-4 feet. The angle I want is usable for about 1.5 feet of CB travel but I can go 2 feet in either direction and be fine to shoot the 8 and get on the 9. You can even get stuck on the side rail and still play shape for the 9 by just rolling it in.
Why not get thinner on the 7 and 1 rail to the 8? You're moving more against the desired line of the shot and have a greater chance of getting too thin on the 8 or straight in on it. The angle needed to use natural top leaves you missably thin. Your natural line with follow carries you towards a scratch in the lower left corner, and there's some chance of hitting the nipple near the bottom side pocket, or getting stuck close to the rail.
Why not high+inside to 1 rail to the 8? Well sidespin can be funny, inside especially. Even more when you're hitting with enough force to move the CB 8 feet. It might take too little and send you directly against the line you want (so you're heading towards the footspot and need good speed control) or too much and send you towards the side pocket. And shooting with inside spin is a little harder to aim, you are dealing with spin-induced and collision induced throw. Whereas the outside I would use is gearing english and cancels out CIT, meaning you really don't need to account for throw at all. You can actually do this with a careful centerball hit if you want but the outside actually makes it a touch easier and makes sure you don't send the CB on a line towards a scratch in the upper left corner.
I think you should listen to everyone, but listen selectively. Everyone from the lowest to the highest level knows shots that you may not know. If you consider the infinite number of shots that can come up on a table you can see that someone with a lower ability than yourself may see a better way than you do.
I have said this before on here and I will say it again: When you think you know it all you stop learning and when you stop learning you stop knowing it all.
The reason why this layout doesn't favor one particular way is because the 8 is in a neutral position - there is no short side.
Most players would be concerned about 3 things - 1) first, just having a shot on the 8, 2) the scratch, and 3) having an angle on the 8 to get to the 9.
I am a rotation player, so I am comfortable with long shape. I would probably go one rail if I knew the table well. So I would just shoot it like this and make it almost all of the time - I am very comfortable with this shot.
Tournament players are playing on different equipment all the time. They would probably go 3 rails like this where the speed isn't critical (the cue ball dies off the thrid rail) and I do this sometimes too - this would probably be the most popular route:
There are some players who favor a different route - they are gamblers road players and and straight pool players. They play natural angles and are very comfortable with follow shots. Many of them shoot it like this:
Then you have the pinoys and guys with big strokes. No matter where they get, they can get to the next place. If they get a little off line, it doesn't matter - they can get the cue ball anywhere they want no matter where they leave it.
Basically, you go with the shape you think you can pull off - there's no given, it's all optional.
Going around the 7 is a bad choice because it's easy to get out of line - you would go around the seven like you showed as an option if your shot on the five didn't draw enough.
It sure is nice to know that I'm making some progress seeing the table.
Before I read the replies, I tried to work it out for myself, to see how I would (try to) do it. Turns out what I liked was the same as Tates 3rd (or 4th) response, the one like Neils 1st choice.
Now then, just because I saw that approach doesn't mean I could actually make all those shots that way. But you can't make'em if you don't see'em, so maybe I'm on the right track! It is reassuring to see that I'm seeing the same way you better, more experienced players are.
Again, I LOVE those exercises. I love it every time someone puts up a "How would you shoot this" thread. Thanks guys, this is truly good stuff for we beginner-types.
Couple years back I'm playing in a tournament at Herberts in NJ, they have a big bar, waitresses, good food, etc. I'm in 5th-6th at the time and I was playing a match and my parents came to watch me. I squeaked by that match and won, and my mom comes up to me and says "You played ok, but all you did the whole time was stare at the waitresses. Try staring at the table like the rest of the players". She's never picked up a stick and to this day doesn't know a thing about pool.
Couple years back I'm playing in a tournament at Herberts in NJ, they have a big bar, waitresses, good food, etc. I'm in 5th-6th at the time and I was playing a match and my parents came to watch me. I squeaked by that match and won, and my mom comes up to me and says "You played ok, but all you did the whole time was stare at the waitresses. Try staring at the table like the rest of the players". She's never picked up a stick and to this day doesn't know a thing about pool.
Neil, I actually like your second choice better. I practice shooting the 7 ball shot trying to keep the cue ball close to the middle diamond on the last rail, that way I don't worry about scratching in the corner pocket or the side pocket.
Some shots look a little harder but to me the two shape shots (in both of your choices) off of the 7 ball are equally easy as far as difficulty is concerned. I know follow should be a little easier than draw but I shoot the draw shot so frequently I have more confidence doing it and I seem to be able to shorten or widen the angle of the cue ball easier and with more accuracy.
would personally always would choose this way to get out- every time, no matter if new cloth or bad cloth- just about percentage and going easiest way for a good angle:
There s almost 25 % of the table for position to play the 8-Ball comfortable (for right-handed player like me). As long as i m coming over the middle of the table i m able to pocket the 8-ball and get always position for the 9-ball- no matter if for a thin or thicker cut.
lg from overseas,
At first glimpse, I think a lot of people would agree with Neil's first choice. But IMHO this is one of those 98 out of 100 compared to 99 out of 100 type of patterns.
I think the second choice is slightly better. Not because of the path to the 8 ball, but its the path to the 7. I like the path from the 7 to the 8 better in the first choice, but you take the chance of getting straight in on the 7 when you roll forward off of the 6.
If the cue ball and the six "lock up" a little, you may be straight in on the 7 and in trouble. It wont happen often, but that is that little difference we are talking about. If you shoot a stop shot on the six you will NEVER get straight in on the seven. This is why I would take the second choice.
Neil, I actually like your second choice better. I practice shooting the 7 ball shot trying to keep the cue ball close to the middle diamond on the last rail, that way I don't worry about scratching in the corner pocket or the side pocket.
Some shots look a little harder but to me the two shape shots (in both of your choices) off of the 7 ball are equally easy as far as difficulty is concerned. I know follow should be a little easier than draw but I shoot the draw shot so frequently I have more confidence doing it and I seem to be able to shorten or widen the angle of the cue ball easier and with more accuracy.
The one above is probably the most common route, but a lot of players do go past the 7 and go two rails like Neil's first diagram showed.
If I have clear routes I play the two rail shape like above, but I've become accustomed to playing long shape one rail like my first diagram because it's easier to avoid blockers - so typically I would do that on a congested table.
Neil's first shot is a common choice among experienced money players, bar table players, etc. My experience is those players are prefer follow shape.
Among hard core 9 ball players, you see this a lot too - they like to move the cue ball to the rail and back to get the exact position they want on the 7 - almost like it's a habit because it sure isn't necessary:
Anyway, just showing the variation in styles that make this game interesting. There are many different syles of play and they can be equally effective.
As to the original post, you can learn something from EVERYONE, even if its what not to do. When talking to different people some things need more explanation. Ask the WHY they feel the way they do, and if they can back it up with a solid explanation you may find something you were about to dismiss is actually valid.
One thing I keep reading in this thread that I think deserves further discussion is the "I listen to all and discard what I don't agree with" mentality. In some ways I agree with this, but do so with caution. Just because you don't initially agree with it does not always mean its wrong. Too many times I have seen people receive good advice and they will try it once and dismiss it before they really learn how to execute it properly. You will often hear people say it doesn't feel right. When they should understand the it just feels different and need to give it time to see if it is really a change that they should make.
At first glimpse, I think a lot of people would agree with Neil's first choice. But IMHO this is one of those 98 out of 100 compared to 99 out of 100 type of patterns.
I think the second choice is slightly better. Not because of the path to the 8 ball, but its the path to the 7. I like the path from the 7 to the 8 better in the first choice, but you take the chance of getting straight in on the 7 when you roll forward off of the 6.
If the cue ball and the six "lock up" a little, you may be straight in on the 7 and in trouble. It wont happen often, but that is that little difference we are talking about. If you shoot a stop shot on the six you will NEVER get straight in on the seven. This is why I would take the second choice.
If the 7 were just 3 or 4 inches inches closer to the rail, Neil's first choice (2 rail follow) or even one rail would make the most sense and it would be easy getting the angle for it. Since the 7 is sitting out where it is (I did that on purpose) the 3 railer is a duck so I have to agree with you.
Anyway, I was just trying to show that people have different shots they like and don't like - sometimes it's a matter of style and personal preferences. It doesn't surprise me that I am the only player that would consider one rail shape in this situation - I know it's one of my idiosyncracies.
If the 7 were just 3 or 4 inches inches closer to the rail, Neil's first choice (2 rail follow) or even one rail would make the most sense and it would be easy getting the angle for it. Since the 7 is sitting out where it is (I did that on purpose) the 3 railer is a duck so I have to agree with you.
I agree with you too The position of the seven makes the difference in this example. Moving it a few inches up or down could totally change the pattern.
As to the original post, you can learn something from EVERYONE, even if its what not to do. When talking to different people some things need more explanation. Ask the WHY they feel the way they do, and if they can back it up with a solid explanation you may find something you were about to dismiss is actually valid.
One thing I keep reading in this thread that I think deserves further discussion is the "I listen to all and discard what I don't agree with" mentality. In some ways I agree with this, but do so with caution. Just because you don't initially agree with it does not always mean its wrong. Too many times I have seen people receive good advice and they will try it once and dismiss it before they really learn how to execute it properly. You will often hear people say it doesn't feel right. When they should understand the it just feels different and need to give it time to see if it is really a change that they should make.
I can honestly say I have never had a tip or suggestion from a less skilled player, but if I did, I would pay attention.
There was an instructor here locally who really had some far out theory's. He messed up my friend's game for years teaching him a very unreliable aiming system.
Anyway, I took a couple of lessons from him. He straightened out my stance and at least got me thinking about a better grip. I was using an old style finger-cradle- slip stroke and it wasn't all that great for 9 ball.
80% of the changes he made were very helpful - especially opening up my hips to the shot with foot position Then he moved my grip back to the butt sleeve of the cue trying to get my arm perpendicular - and I could see and feel this was past perpendicular and it gave me this odd banana looking stroke. I tried it for awhile and realized it was a crock before it did any damage.
If I would have rejected all of what he said because some of it was hooey, I would still be standing poorly and shooting with a weak grip.
It is reassuring to see that I'm seeing the same way you better, more experienced players are.
The position of the seven makes the difference in this example. Moving it a few inches up or down could totally change the pattern.