Do you take advice from players below your level?
- Thread starter CreeDo
- Start date
It looks good on the WEI but in reality it's hard to play the 3 railer if the 7 is too close to the rail. Try it on a table, you'll see what I mean. The angle is wider and you get more of this shape:
Chris
Take what she said with a grain of salt. Sometimes people see things differently that can help you keep your eyes open to new options, avenues, patterns. Unfortunately knowledge does not always amount to talent. But the more you know and are aware of the better armed and ready you will be. Putting your ego aside is best in most of these situations. Another thing is that you need to play to your strengths not hers. And where you are weak work on it to become the complete moster that we all want to be.
Well said-
But in my opinion some people choose *the wrong route* just because they re a bit scary- no matter if it s caused by the idea if they think they re not able to do the shot or are just too frightened (related on the situation, leagure/money or so).
And in those cases a good advice is much worth
lg
Ingo
@Tate
Generally many good responses and advices here- and i really don t want to get too off-topic here, but especially this situation shows a (in my opinion) a standard-shot which is an absolutley *must have* in a players repertoire.
A very good drill for this is here-
Generally many good responses and advices here- and i really don t want to get too off-topic here, but especially this situation shows a (in my opinion) a standard-shot which is an absolutley *must have* in a players repertoire.
A very good drill for this is here-
You can learn something from everyone in life...Good & Bad........Recently I was playing with a friend and later that night I said something like "you seem to get the cue ball where you're trying to move it... but I don't like some of your choices for positional routes".
She came back with "I don't like your position routes. You don't always play for the easy sensible shape. And you seem like you go more rails than you need to, always following with the cue ball and playing these 2 and 3 rail shapes when you don't have to. And you don't draw enough" ...etc.
Here's the thing. I'm a solid B. But I don't have a big stroke and I play much better 8 ball than 9 ball. She plays a couple of speeds below me but does much much more 9 ball. I won't say she beats me at 9 ball but she can break and run sometimes. Also she has reached that level in just 2-3 years and it took 11 to get where I am.
So, do I listen to her even though I beat her pretty solidly?
PS: hope she's not reading this and getting offended. I wouldn't be asking at all if I didn't take her seriously
Tate: lol looks like it from the sample doesn't it? I played one rail where many play to get straight and just nip draw... and I played 3 rails where others suggest just 1.
There are lots of interesting replies. The big debate seems to be whether to do the 3 rail route or the pure follow route for 7 to the 8. Before I got into pool videos, I never really paid attention to that 3 rail route. But I've got a zillion of them and I see players get position for and play it all day long. It looks more complicated than a 1 rail route, but it's infinitely safer.
Several votes for it have got me convinced it's the shot.
But, about that 6 - I set it up at the pool hall last night and it worked perfectly. Stop shot, then 1 rail to the 7. I went a little long on my shape and it was completely fine, I still had the exact angle I wanted and then did the 3 rail route to the 8. It was so natural that I really don't see how anyone can NOT like it. Why draw to get straight in and then occasionally be forced to improvise if you don't fall straight in? The stop shot is a plan you can execute 1000 times in a row.
I played one rail where many play to get straight and just nip draw... and I played 3 rails where others suggest just 1.There are lots of interesting replies. The big debate seems to be whether to do the 3 rail route or the pure follow route for 7 to the 8. Before I got into pool videos, I never really paid attention to that 3 rail route. But I've got a zillion of them and I see players get position for and play it all day long. It looks more complicated than a 1 rail route, but it's infinitely safer.
Several votes for it have got me convinced it's the shot.
But, about that 6 - I set it up at the pool hall last night and it worked perfectly. Stop shot, then 1 rail to the 7. I went a little long on my shape and it was completely fine, I still had the exact angle I wanted and then did the 3 rail route to the 8. It was so natural that I really don't see how anyone can NOT like it. Why draw to get straight in and then occasionally be forced to improvise if you don't fall straight in? The stop shot is a plan you can execute 1000 times in a row.
very good post and a great example of different options. I absolutely see the last 2 examples as being my choices. I play both of those patterns a LOT. I feel a have an extremely high chance of executing either one successfully. I think I would favor the seocnd to last example, but if for some reason I did not get there, then I would be perfectly happy to play the last one, and not reduce my chance for success.
Creedo, it does seem you are playing unecessary rails for shape. I think your friend may have made a great observation. I am not saying that yours won't work, and I am sure you are successful with it. If I found myself on the 7 like your diagram, I may even play it that way. The main difference is that I would not plan to be there. There are many recovery shots I use when I am in less than an ideal situation, but they are not part of my original plan, or part of my pattern as I planned it from the start.
My question to you is this: Take away the 5 and the 6 ball- take ball in hand on the 7. Do you still play the 3 rail shape to the 8? I personally would NEVER play the route you diagrammed with BIH. I was wondering if you might see things a bit differentl in this context, and maybe you would re evaluate things.
Jw
I have no problem listening to anyone that might have a better way of doing things. I am very open minded. I can log it into my memory for a later date, or if it is utterly stupid, politely listen and choose to immediately forget it.
I play with a guy that has a head harder than granite. He listens to noone, and has been playing at the same level for years and wonders why his game never progresses.....go figure.
If you are closed minded and stubborn..it's you loss ...no one elses. I love it when someone shows me something...and a few weeks later I use it to beat them!
I play with a guy that has a head harder than granite. He listens to noone, and has been playing at the same level for years and wonders why his game never progresses.....go figure.
If you are closed minded and stubborn..it's you loss ...no one elses. I love it when someone shows me something...and a few weeks later I use it to beat them!
I had almost that exact same layout last week on the WEI. Ran 29 consecutive racks of 9 ball. Finger slipped on the mouse or I would have had 30.
Advice
I agree with this poster. Also, once you hear the feedback, you can then bounce that up against your overall knowledge of the game and what you know about your strengths, weaknesses and tendencies and act accordingly. Worst case scenario, you discount everything she says and you are no better/worse off than if you had not listened, but if there's even a hint of a chance that she has some valuable insight, it is what we call in business school, a positive NPV project.
I agree with this poster. Also, once you hear the feedback, you can then bounce that up against your overall knowledge of the game and what you know about your strengths, weaknesses and tendencies and act accordingly. Worst case scenario, you discount everything she says and you are no better/worse off than if you had not listened, but if there's even a hint of a chance that she has some valuable insight, it is what we call in business school, a positive NPV project.
That's a good question, so I asked myself that honestly. Believe it or not, the answer is yes. But as I think about it, that might be because the OB is right in the middle, as far from either corner as it could be. If the OB is a little closer to one corner or the other, I'm almost certainly taking the 2 rail route with ball in hand. It's just that when the CB has over 2 feet to travel to hit that first rail, I feel like it's less predictable figuring out how much the top and/or side is going to take, and where I'm landing on the 2nd rail. But I'd probably be lying if I said I could predict the landing zone of the 3 railer any better.
I guess what I like about my plan is that if I tell someone what I'm going to do, I can then execute it literally 100 times in a row and not have to improvise, ever. I can draw and get straightish on that ball most of the time, and I can stun to the side rail or go to the head rail with high inside. But my preference is to take the pattern that goes exactly as planned, not the one where I improvise. How many times do you get a slightly wrong angle when forced to do that high-inside 1 rail position, or when stunning to the side rail and back out?
I also watch and study tons of pros on video and I can verify that the 3 rail route is what the pros do all day long.
If you don't know the 3 rail shot then the other option or options would be better for you but you have to learn to love the 3 rail shot. For a pro they know they will never scratch on it. EVER. They also get to let their stroke out which helps keep them in stroke. You can hit it all kinds of speeds and the cue ball dies at the end every time where you need it.
In fact you will constantly see them shoot the money ball last and go three rails with outside english where an amateur would play center ball and go one rail. The untrained think, "Wow he really risked scratching there." The experienced know that a scratch was never possible and it's easier to make the ball with that speed. It also helps with nerves to hit a little firmer sometimes.
If you don't know the 3 rail shot then the other option or options would be better for you but you have to learn to love the 3 rail shot. For a pro they know they will never scratch on it. EVER. They also get to let their stroke out which helps keep them in stroke. You can hit it all kinds of speeds and the cue ball dies at the end every time where you need it.
In fact you will constantly see them shoot the money ball last and go three rails with outside english where an amateur would play center ball and go one rail. The untrained think, "Wow he really risked scratching there." The experienced know that a scratch was never possible and it's easier to make the ball with that speed. It also helps with nerves to hit a little firmer sometimes.
You ever heard that there is more than one way to skin a cat? A lot of our choices have to do with what we are comfortable with. I for one will accept advice from anyone, if it has merit. We have a tendency to get tunnel versioned and often miss the second or third option because we are concentrating so much on our initial plan of attack.
OK, well I appreciate that you gave it a good look. I understand what you are saying, and can see the merit in your explanation. I do agree with playing through the center of the table to eliminate scratches. I play very similar routes with the same logic. In this exact context, I saw the pattern differently. I think that was the whole point of this exercise, to prove that many players will see the same layout very differently.
I still think it will come down to the individual player, what they are comfortable with, and what they feel that their chances for success is. However, there are def better choices than others, and you always need to give new ideas a chance, or you will always be stuck in the same place.
For example, I play on an APA team as the only SL7. I often get asked for advice on situations, etc. A good example is when a lower ranked player gets ball in hand and will place it mostly straight in for a 7 foot follow shot for the next ball at the far end of the table, instead of just giving themselves an angle and going off one or more rails. As in this example, putting the cueball between the rail and the 7 and playing the 7 in the far corner and following straight up for the 8. It seems absolutely ridiculous, but that is what they feel as their best chance for getting shape. They do not have the confidence to see and predict angles off the rails.
If they were to never be open to new information, they will be stuck there forever. I feel that there is always more than one correct answer, HOWEVER, there are def wrong ( or far worse) options.
I think that this was prob the MOST effective way I learned this game. I would play the best players I could find. I would play the game in my head with them as they would be playing patterns. I would feel reassured when they would be executing the patterns that I saw. Whenever they would make a different choice than what I saw, I would ask them " why did you play that shot, and not ....". Often they would give a great explanation that made perfect sense, that I never would have seen. Now I had something new to work on and add to my game.
The more options that you know, the greater chance you have of picking the best one for you and your situation when it matters.
Creedo, the only other thing I would mention in your pattern is the 6 to the 7. Why would you play position to go off the rail there? You are playing out of the position zone and then back into it when it is absolutely unneccessary. You are taking a longer route to leave the position zone. Often I will play longer routes to stay IN the position zone, but not to leave it. If you play for a straighter shot on the 5 you never have to be out of line, you can fine tune your angle on the 6, but it would be impossible to not have a shot on the 6. The only danger, really would be getting dead straight on the 7. Though you don't eliminate that risk by going off a rail, you could still make an error and end up straight there too.
Jw
I really wish the pros would post on these what would you do threads. Donny would explain that rolling forward and using the end rail from the 6 to the 7 is not the best way to go for the reasons above and for the risk of being way closer to the side rail than you would want when you need to go three rails on the next shot.
Recently I was playing with a friend and later that night I said something like "you seem to get the cue ball where you're trying to move it... but I don't like some of your choices for positional routes".
She came back with "I don't like your position routes. You don't always play for the easy sensible shape. And you seem like you go more rails than you need to, always following with the cue ball and playing these 2 and 3 rail shapes when you don't have to. And you don't draw enough" ...etc.
Here's the thing. I'm a solid B. But I don't have a big stroke and I play much better 8 ball than 9 ball. She plays a couple of speeds below me but does much much more 9 ball. I won't say she beats me at 9 ball but she can break and run sometimes. Also she has reached that level in just 2-3 years and it took 11 to get where I am.
So, do I listen to her even though I beat her pretty solidly?
PS: hope she's not reading this and getting offended. I wouldn't be asking at all if I didn't take her seriously
Yes, consider her advice and with an open mind decide if she is right or not. Just because she doesn't possess the physical skills to beat you doesn't mean that she doesn't sometimes see something about your game that you miss.
<edit> One thing though I'd be suspicious of any advice that calls for more drawing. An instructor early on told me to use natural roll as much as possible, make follow your second option, and draw your last resort. I have to agree with him.
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Do you take advice from players below your level? - 04-01-2010, 09:51 PM
Just going from the title of your thread, I would say "definitely". I'm about 5'11" and Nick Varner is about 5'4". He gave me a few pointers and he is way below my level.
Just going from the title of your thread, I would say "definitely". I'm about 5'11" and Nick Varner is about 5'4". He gave me a few pointers and he is way below my level.