Do you use stun run-through?

[dr_dave]

I thought that stun creates more throw, but also that softer shots create more throw. I wonder if a firmer shot with less roll creates more or less throw, or if the two factors are just a wash and there’s no difference.

Good explanation and question. Soft stun definitely creates the most throw. For more info, see maximum throw and throw speed effects.

Concerning the comparison between a firm shot with less roll vs. a soft shot with more roll, it is "a wash" in general, but it depends on the speed and spin differences and cut angle. For more info, see: follow shot throw effects.

Enjoy!

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm not sure it's been mentioned above but...

If you have to keep the cue ball from rolling too far forward (to hit a window, for example), it's good to know how far forward the cue ball will follow on a soft, rolling shot relative to the distance the OB is driven. That is close to one sixth of the travel of the object ball. So, if the OB is three diamonds from the pocket and you play a soft, rolling shot, the cue ball will go forward at least half a diamond if you get the OB to the pocket, and it will be real close to half a diamond if the OB barely gets there.

Of course it is risky to play a shot that barely gets the OB to the pocket, both for roll-off and for coming up short. To build in some margin, you could use a 1:4 distance ratio for soft rollers to be sure the OB gets to the pocket.

When you can't afford to let the cue ball roll more than 1/6 (or 1/4) the pocket distance, then you need to change to stun runthrough. (Or earlier if you don't trust the table, as mentioned above.)

 

[Imac007]

Damn it’s hard, especially at a distance. If I misjudge the speed or the tip placement, things can go really bad, much worse than a roll shot. Sometimes I try to go forward 2 feet and it will go an inch. And I miss the shot more often.

You are right about long distances to the object ball being finicky with stun run through.
On many I prefer to use drag. I calibrate the speed more easily by using the stop shot as my reference.
My starting calibration reference is to hit the cue ball as if it was a stop shot half the distance of the actual shot.
That way roll only starts half way there and adjusted by how low rather than high much above center tip contact is made.
I seem to sense the contact point of the tip from above better with low contact than the bottom part of my tip from above on higher contact.

 

[Imac007]

I’ve been working on hitting my follow shots firmer and a little lower on the cue ball. I think I’ll be less likely to get roll-off and cling, and I see pros shoot a lot of their shots like this, so I’m trying to emulate them.

One situation for me where I use a stun run through on a longer shot is when I need to alter the cue ball angle on a cut shot where the 30° natural roll is too narrow and stun is too wide. That said your description seemed to relate more to straighter shots.

 

[straightline]

I use it but it's too difficult to talk about.

 

[Geosnookery]

Just to mention another variable. I’d be confident doing a straight in stun run on my own table that I play on everyday. Not on another cloth/table. And different balls.

Risk vs reward. Good position on next shot vs being in good position for a safety shot? Also, If I miss the pot what have I left my opponent?

I ‘might’ make a stun shot and run through to within a couple inches where I want the cueball to be ...but? I’m ‘ok doing stun runs after 50 years but still not ‘good’. I’d dig into my tool box for an alternative

 

[7stud]

Not sure of the terminology here, but to me, a stun follow and a stun run through are two different shots. To me, a stun run through is using stun to go slightly forward a little on a straight shot with a very similar stroke.

Every decent player uses stun follow, but I think the stun run through is more the domain of the most elite pros.

...and what do you consider to be stun follow? Is it this:

I think stun follow is hard follow for changing path of cueball upon contacting object ball and before the top takes.

In other words, increasing cue ball speeds(with follow/top) cause the cue ball to move further and further along the tangent line before the follow/top bends the angle forward of the tangent line.

 

[sjm]

...and what do you consider to be stun follow?

I cannot improve on Tin Man's definition in Post #13. To quote from his post "The stun follow is any shot in which the cue ball is turning forward (i.e. not sliding or back spinning) at a rate LESS than a naturally rolling ball." That's pretty much the textbook definition.

I will add the geometry to embellish. Stun follow is the stroke that sends the cue ball somewhere between the follow line (the path it would take with follow) and the tangent line.

 

[FeelDaShot]

Concerning the comparison between a firm shot with less roll vs. a soft shot with more roll, it is "a wash" in general, but it depends on the speed and spin differences and cut angle. For more info, see: follow shot throw effects.

Dave, I don't find your above statement to be accurate. Please explain. Below is my understanding of CIT throw effects for comparison:

At the fuller cut angles that we are discussing, less roll = more throw. I can't think of an example of when this wouldn't be true, regardless of speed.

If both balls were hit with the same amount of stun (i.e. frozen object balls), you're correct that the slower shot would produce more CIT throw. But in all other situations where the cue ball is rolling to some extent, this is not true. You can't simply say that slower shots produce more throw. It all depends on the amount of roll at the time of contact with the object ball.

 

[dr_dave]

Good explanation and question. Soft stun definitely creates the most throw. For more info, see maximum throw and throw speed effects.

Concerning the comparison between a firm shot with less roll vs. a soft shot with more roll, it is "a wash" in general, but it depends on the speed and spin differences and cut angle. For more info, see: follow shot throw effects.

Dave, I don't find your above statement to be accurate.

Have you checked out the information and supporting resources at the links? If so, what do you think is inaccurate?

At the fuller cut angles that we are discussing, less roll = more throw.

Less roll creates more throw at any cut angle per the info here: follow shot throw effects.

I can't think of an example of when this wouldn't be true, regardless of speed.

Speed has no effect on stun-shot throw at small cut angles, but it does affect throw on most shots (over a wide range of cut angles and top/bottom spin amounts). See throw speed effects.

If both balls were hit with the same amount of stun (i.e. frozen object balls), you're correct that the slower shot would produce more CIT throw.

Not at small cut angles. Throw is independent of shot speed with shot close to stun (very little top or bottom spin) at small cut angles. See throw speed effects.

But in all other situations where the cue ball is rolling to some extent, this is not true.

Not true. Speed affects the amount of throw regardless of the amount of top or back spin (except at small cut angles close to stun, where speed has no effect). And throw is less with more top or back spin. And all these effects change gradually. For example, as you increase the amount of topspin from stun, the amount of throw goes down in proportion. Also, as you increase the amount of topspin from stun, speed has an effect over a larger range of angles (even small angles at larger amounts of topspin). FYI, a good summary of all throw effects can be found here:

Squirt (cue ball deflection), Swerve, and Throw Effects Summary​

And graphs showing how throw changes with everything can be found here:

TP A.28 – Throw plots for all types of shots​

The graphs clearly show all the effects and answer all your current or future questions about throw.

You can't simply say that slower shots produce more throw.

Agreed. That's why I had this is my quoted post above: "it depends on the speed and spin differences and cut angle."

It all depends on the amount of roll at the time of contact with the object ball.

And it also depends on cut angle, shot speed (for most shots), and the amount of sidespin (if there is any).

 

[SBC]

Thanks, that makes sense to me. I believe I was under the mistaken impression that it would always be a better idea to hit firmer/lower.

Really stun follow is only needed on a long shot where you only want to go forward under 6 or 8 inches. On long shots center or follow strokes pickup forward roll from friction with the cloth. It it hard to shot straight in from far away and move forward a little because of it.

With a hard stun the cueball powers through the object ball and essentially slides forward. It is a tougher shot to pocket the ball accuracy wise, but cueball control in these situations is easier.

You could play all night and never need it, but when it's needed you better know it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With a hard stun the cueball powers through the object ball and essentially slides forward.

Not unless it's heavier than the OB. If it's the same weight, it will stop on contact, and then, only if it has some forward rotation, it will roll forward (more or less depending on the speed of rotation).

pj
chgo

 

[Chili Palmer]

I’ve been working on hitting my follow shots firmer and a little lower on the cue ball. I think I’ll be less likely to get roll-off and cling, and I see pros shoot a lot of their shots like this, so I’m trying to emulate them.

Damn it’s hard, especially at a distance. If I misjudge the speed or the tip placement, things can go really bad, much worse than a roll shot. Sometimes I try to go forward 2 feet and it will go an inch. And I miss the shot more often.

On the other hand, a soft roll is really easy to judge and I rarely have problems with it. In a competitive situation, I’m going to play the soft roll 10/10 times over the stun run-through.

Any tips on making this shot work? Or is it even worth it when the roll shot is so much easier?

I practice stun follow shots when warming up. I will put an OB near the center of table and put CB about foot behind it and shoot OB in corner pocket. I will see how hard I can hit it and have it move 1 ball, 2 balls, etc. Just like anything else it's a tool in my tool box so I try to practice them.

 

[Tin Man]

If we consider only straight shots 'stun follows' then it might not come up more than a couple of times a set. If we include any shot in which we utilize a partially rolling (but not fully rolling) cue ball, including fudging the tangent line on angled shots, it is very, very common.

I would bet that if I picked a random youtube match of 10 ball it would be used an average of once every other rack, or 5-10% of the shots. That is common enough to demand accuracy with controlling the rotations of the cue ball.

 

[sjm]

If we consider only straight shots 'stun follows' then it might not come up more than a couple of times a set. If we include any shot in which we utilize a partially rolling (but not fully rolling) cue ball, including fudging the tangent line on angled shots, it is very, very common.

I would bet that if I picked a random youtube match of 10 ball it would be used an average of once every other rack, or 5-10% of the shots. That is common enough to demand accuracy with controlling the rotations of the cue ball.

No-one I've ever encountered defines stun follow as only pertaining to straight shots, but stun run through is a different puppy, and in my opinion, stun run through only pertains to straight shots. I'd guess that stun run through comes up about once per race to thirteen.

As you've astutely pointed out, the drag follow has come more and more into vogue in recent years, and has, in some cases, replaced the stun run through shot.

Had the thread title been "Do you use stun follow?", every player with a Fargo of 550 or higher would have probably said yes. As you point out, having a good command of it is critical, especially if one aspires to play the best patterns.

 

[SBC]

Not unless it's heavier than the OB. If it's the same weight, it will stop on contact, and then, only if it has some forward rotation, it will roll forward (more or less depending on the speed of rotation).

pj
chgo

No true...
Objects in motion, stay in motion unless acted on by an equal force. A stationary ball isn't going to stop a cueball. Cueball pushes through, a short controllable distance.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I’ve been working on hitting my follow shots firmer and a little lower on the cue ball. I think I’ll be less likely to get roll-off and cling, and I see pros shoot a lot of their shots like this, so I’m trying to emulate them.

Damn it’s hard, especially at a distance. If I misjudge the speed or the tip placement, things can go really bad, much worse than a roll shot. Sometimes I try to go forward 2 feet and it will go an inch. And I miss the shot more often.

On the other hand, a soft roll is really easy to judge and I rarely have problems with it. In a competitive situation, I’m going to play the soft roll 10/10 times over the stun run-through.

Any tips on making this shot work? Or is it even worth it when the roll shot is so much

For me, it depends largely on the distance between the cue ball and the object ball and on how much confidence I have in the levelness of the table. The further the distance between the two balls, the more likely even a very slight roll off is going to result in a missed shot if you are rolling the cue ball as opposed to stroking firm enough to glide the cue ball across/above the surface of the cloth.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

No true...
Objects in motion, stay in motion unless acted on by an equal force. A stationary ball isn't going to stop a cueball. Cueball pushes through, a short controllable distance.

All the cue ball's momentum is transferred to moving the equal weight object ball (its inertia is the equal force). That's how a stop shot works - the cue ball is stopped dead by the object ball and, with no forward or backward rotation, doesn't move from that spot.

One way to see that is by noticing that the equal weight cue ball never "pushes through" the object ball before reversing with draw (a heavier CB will).

pj
chgo

 

[Poolmanis]

All the cue ball's momentum is transferred to moving the equal weight object ball (its inertia is the equal force). That's how a stop shot works - the cue ball is stopped dead by the object ball and, with no forward or backward rotation, doesn't move from that spot.

One way to see that is by noticing that the cue ball never "pushes through" the object ball before reversing with draw.

pj
chgo

have you ever done cigarette trick to illustrate short momentum forward motion with draw stroke? Or seen it?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

have you ever done cigarette trick to illustrate short momentum forward motion with draw stroke? Or seen it?

Haven't seen it. Can you describe it?

pj
chgo