Does a touch of outside...

[Patrick Johnson]

With no English on the same shot you need to hit about an 1/8 of a ball less.

This is a huge exaggeration. 1/8 ball, even at nearly straight on, is a change of more than 7 degrees - way more than the OB is normally thrown. The exaggeration gets bigger as the cut gets thinner - and the throw gets smaller, compounding the error.

pj
chgo

 

[Colonel]

This is a huge exaggeration. 1/8 ball, even at nearly straight on, is a change of more than 7 degrees - way more than the OB is normally thrown. The exaggeration gets bigger as the cut gets thinner - and the throw gets smaller, compounding the error.



pj

chgo

What is your agenda precisely? I mean nothing from nothing but you spend a LOT of time seemingly telling a LOT of people how wrong they are. Not a judgement just an observation

 

[HawaiianEye]

What is your agenda precisely? I mean nothing from nothing but you spend a LOT of time seemingly telling a LOT of people how wrong they are. Not a judgement just an observation

He seems to enjoy distracting people from obtaining any knowledge rather than adding to it most of the time, IMHO.

I would love to see him play.

 

[Dognit]

Wondered the same thing. Sure finds a way to be involved with EVERY discussion.

Sometimes you are smarter by what you dont say.

 

[ps611846]

He seems to enjoy distracting people from obtaining any knowledge rather than adding to it most of the time, IMHO.

I would love to see him play.

That's his "style".

Wanna See him play ? Only in your dreams.......

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What is your agenda precisely? I mean nothing from nothing but you spend a LOT of time seemingly telling a LOT of people how wrong they are. Not a judgement just an observation

What's your agenda? To ensure that readers here are misled without interference?

Used to be you could find good technical/teaching info here. You might be happy to know that it's pretty much not worth my time any more.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Colonel,

Knuckle ball pitchers KNOW how to throw one, while a book worm can tell them that they are doing it wrong.:wink:

 

[(((Satori)))]

What's your agenda? To ensure that readers here are misled without interference?

Used to be you could find good technical/teaching info here. You might be happy to know that it's pretty much not worth my time any more.

pj
chgo

FWIW I enjoy your posts. You are one of the few on here I trust gives accurate info.

 

[ps611846]

FWIW I enjoy your posts. You are one of the few on here I trust gives accurate info.

Hahaha, nice one !!!!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

FWIW I enjoy your posts. You are one of the few on here I trust gives accurate info.

Thanks. Too bad you have to say "the few" now - it wasn't always like this.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

What is your agenda precisely? I mean nothing from nothing but you spend a LOT of time seemingly telling a LOT of people how wrong they are. Not a judgement just an observation

His agenda is simply that correct information be posted on here. Not a bunch of hearsay and myths. It's called actually helping instead of just saying any old thing that comes to mind just to say one participated in the discussion.

Pat is rarely wrong in the things he post on here. It would behoove many to listen for a change instead of thinking they know it all and mocking those that do have the knowledge on here.

 

[Poolplaya9]

What is your agenda precisely? I mean nothing from nothing but you spend a LOT of time seemingly telling a LOT of people how wrong they are. Not a judgement just an observation

The way you end up with a bunch of misinformed people is to let them get taught by misinformed people. It perpetuates itself and unfortunately we are absolutely overrun with a lot of misinformed people. A lot of misinformed people is never good for anyone or society. The way you end up with a lot of informed people with accurate information is when they are taught by smart people with accurate information. Somebody has to care enough to step up and do it and thank goodness Pat Johnson is one of the few that is willing to do it even in the face of having to fade the obnoxious heat from idiots that don't know any better.

The fact is, PJ is literally almost always right in matters regarding pool. I am not talking about stuff like which player is better than who, but on things about what is happening on a pool table or what a player is actually doing. Those that are less informed or less intelligent don't see this and don't believe it. People that aren't smart aren't smart enough to realize that they aren't smart. It is a real catch 22. But because they don't realize their knowledge or intellectual inadequacies they end up trusting their own largely false judgments and wrong beliefs about what they think is happening on the pool table over someone like PJ who actually factually and accurately knows. In almost all cases it can be proven, but again, it is a real catch 22 because often people aren't intelligent or knowledgeable enough to be able to understand the proof so they stay non-believers. Did I mention yet what a catch 22 this is?

The fact is what you (as in people in general) think you are doing is often not what you are doing at all, and what you think is happening on the table is often not at all what is actually happening. All PJ and the few others that have been willing can do is to keep trying to inform and explain and hopefully over time people start to get it. And it does work and there has been progress in some areas but it takes time and is a very slow process. I and many others, who just aren't as vocal as the idiots, are highly appreciative of PJ and the few others who dedicate tons of their time and efforts into trying to help the pool community by providing factually correct information all the time every time.

 

[genomachino]

i use it and teach it everyday...........

This is a huge exaggeration. 1/8 ball, even at nearly straight on, is a change of more than 7 degrees - way more than the OB is normally thrown. The exaggeration gets bigger as the cut gets thinner - and the throw gets smaller, compounding the error.

pj
chgo

The friction induced throw is about 1/8 of a ball.

I don't care what some books might say or a video might say.

I show players how to measure shots. The measurement shows the ghost ball position on the shot. How much of the cue ball is going to hit the OB.

You can do the same with about a 1/2 ball hit , set up a ghost ball and position the cue ball so the hit would be 1/2 ball.

stand up in the preshot and look at the shot as though the cue ball is replacing the ghost ball.

Stay in the preshot and move the ghost ball. Now look at the shot and you can visually see that you need to hit less of the ball to go center hole. Approximately 1/8 ball.

If you put low outside English on the shot you can hit the amount that the ghost ball says.

This test will show you what your brain is already doing for you. If you can manually adjust to the way your hitting the cue ball it gives you allot better chance at consistency.

I teach it everyday to players here in Minneapolis.

It's just the way it is. 1/8 of a ball isn't very much but it can be huge when trying to pocket a ball VS missing it.

Unless a player understands this it's hard to improve. Just keep missing the same shots over and over. Thank goodness though the brain overrides and gets you there if your playing allot.

Most of us can't practice 5-8 hours a day. Manually is good as is with dominant eye while aiming.

All this goes hand in hand.

 

[Colonel]

What's your agenda? To ensure that readers here are misled without interference?



Used to be you could find good technical/teaching info here. You might be happy to know that it's pretty much not worth my time any more.



pj

chgo

I don't have one, I don't believe you can dig up any posts from me calling people idiots either, something that can't be said for you or Neil or several others that tear down other people's styles of play when it doesn't agree with your philosophies.

For instance CJ is a friend. He markets a style of play he calls TOI. He didn't "invent it". He marketed it as a style of play as it was shown to him.

It was shown to me by my father, who in turn was shown by Vernon Elliot, a former road partner of his, he could dab it a little. It's a style that is unobtrusive, looks vanilla when witnessed by all but those that understand the different style of pattern play it employs. It's the same shot, same speed every time.

Is it unorthodox? Yes it is. Is it for everyone? No it's not. Are there a plethora of nuances in the way it is applied that you develop when utilized for period of time? Yes there are.

In a nutshell it's a style that in long sessions, 18+ hours, doesn't have the pitfalls of those that spin balls. While at 20 hours in the spin player starts going long or falling short due to fatigue, the inside player is still hitting the same shot unperturbed by the fatigue.

Many here call my friend a charlatan, you, Neil, a host of others. I know first hand that not only was he a great tournament player, but an even better road warrior for the cash before that. I know that first hand.

What I find interesting is he doesn't claim his way is the "only way", even going so far as to say, "it isn't for everyone", because it's not. Those that decry his method do tell everyone that "their way is the only way", and cast aspersions and name calling about. It kind of detracts from your argument a little, that's all.

 

[Colonel]

Colonel,

Knuckle ball pitchers KNOW how to throw one, while a book worm can tell them that they are doing it wrong.

:wink:

Indeed sir, indeed.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Just to make sure this is not lost in the discussion.

The fact is what you (as in people in general) think you are doing is often not what you are doing at all, and what you think is happening on the table is often not at all what is actually happening.

 

[duckie]

I don't have one, I don't believe you can dig up any posts from me calling people idiots either, something that can't be said for you or Neil or several others that tear down other people's styles of play when it doesn't agree with your philosophies.

For instance CJ is a friend. He markets a style of play he calls TOI. He didn't "invent it". He marketed it as a style of play as it was shown to him.

It was shown to me by my father, who in turn was shown by Vernon Elliot, a former road partner of his, he could dab it a little. It's a style that is unobtrusive, looks vanilla when witnessed by all but those that understand the different style of pattern play it employs. It's the same shot, same speed every time.

Is it unorthodox? Yes it is. Is it for everyone? No it's not. Are there a plethora of nuances in the way it is applied that you develop when utilized for period of time? Yes there are.

Ina nutshell it's a style that in long sessions, 18+ hours, doesn't have the pitfalls of those that spin balls. While at 20 hours in the spin player starts going long or falling short due to fatigue, the inside player is still hitting the same shot unperturbed by the fatigue.

Many here call my friend a charlatan, you, Neil, a host of others. I know first hand that not only was he a great tournament player, but an even better road warrior for the cash before that. I know that first hand.

What I find interesting is he doesn't claim his way is the "only way", even going so far as to say, "it isn't for everyone", because it's not. Those that decry his method do tell everyone that "their way is the only way", and cast aspersions and name calling about. It kind of detracts from your argument a little, that's all.

What is bolded is the issue. There is no more fatigue in spinning balls than using TOI. When fatigue sets in, it is because the player is not in good physical shape and has nothing to do with style of play.

I do believe CJ stays in good shape.

 

[duckie]

What is 1/8 of a ball? I suggest yall divide the size of a ball by 8. Be a better figure on how much the movement really is.

Using 2.25 as ball size divided by 8 gets 0.28125....that's more than a quarter of a inch.

Just putting what's stated in a different form.

 

[ENGLISH!]

What one thinks they are doing or what they think is happening on the table does not make one bit of difference if the balls are going into the hole & the cue ball is getting shape & the player is getting the wins.

Telling them that what they think is wrong & it's actually this or that can ruin that player to the point where they might hardly ever win again or take a whole lot of time before they get winning again. Simply changing a set of irons has ruined quite a few Champion Golf Pros.

2 x 2 = 4 but... negative 2 x negative 2 also = a positive 4

There is more then one combination or method of doing something to the same conclusion.

The knuckle ball pitcher does not think about the science of what is going on, he just implements the bio-mechanics to get the ball to knuckle. A curve ball pitcher does the same thing.

I would hazard a guess that the older pitchers had NO idea of what the science was while some of the newer ones might, but they certainly do not think of it when throwing the ball.

I basically have 3 years of physics education, 2 H.S & one college.

I know very much of what actually goes on on the table & in the stroke & with the hit of the cue ball. I almost never give one thought to ANY of that science.

To shove science down an athlete's 'throat' can be the worse thing a coach or teacher can do. All it does is impress the student with the coach's book knowledge.

It is like Butch Harmon has said, 'I may not know how to build a Championship Swing... but if I am not very careful, I certainly know I can ruin one.'.

To continually just throw out scientific 'facts' (some of which are actually inconclusive & may actually be wrong because there has simply not been enough good scientific study in the area of pool) is reckless with no regard for the 'student' & borders on just selfish gratification of one's ARROGANT EGO, in the vein of 'look, see, I know more than you....you idiot'.

Colonel is correct in what he said. How something is put forth is as important as what is being put forth. I'm not speaking of any ONE in particular but am speaking toward an attitude that seems to run a bit rampant here on AZB.

The movement to have all instructors teach the same thing would ultimately give us a cloned society of mediocre players except for the fact that the truth will out for those players that are serious about getting to the upper levels. They will get there IN SPITE of the science & mediocre methods taught to them. A bit of tit for tat there, sorry.

Put up an athlete & a book worm & if I want to win, I'll challenge the book worm. They generally know all the info but have no idea how to implement it bio-mechanically to an upper level of actual performance.

Sorry for the rant...

but the war on athletes gets to me sometimes & to call the best athletes savants or that they are at a Championship level in spite of their non text book method & not because of them is insulting at best & shows how little those that say such know about the individuality of the human mind & body.

How does that saying go, Those that can... do & those that can't... teach.

That is NOT a knock on all instructors or teachers or coaches. Such are honorable endeavors or professions IF done for the right reasons, but... some have a good understanding while others have no clue.

An example is classes to teach baseball coaches how to teach youth hitting. I disagreed with what was being taught. The next year they bring in Randy Bush as a guest speaker. I ask him a question regarding my disagreement with what was being taught. He answers & confirms what I had been saying all along. He, the athlete, knows & the prescribed 'manual' approved for teaching was wrong. I received quite a few apologies & a change of what & how was being taught took place.

Naturally all of the above are just my opinions. There is no need to dissect what I've said & attack it to promote an argument.

If anyone disagrees, just say so & then express YOUR opinion.

Everyone have a great Sunday. There's Pro Football!

 

[ENGLISH!]

What is bolded is the issue. There is no more fatigue in spinning balls than using TOI. When fatigue sets in, it is because the player is not in good physical shape and has nothing to do with style of play.

I do believe CJ stays in good shape.

Greg,

It's not about physical fatigue. It's about mental fatigue & how it relates to physical performance.

Spinning the ball requires more constant precision & touch. That can certainly become taxing even in less that long marathon matches.

Even when two are playing the same spinning style it will often be the one with the mind that can stay precisely focused that will come out on top.

I can be dead tired & hurting & still lope to the table & execute a shot, but if my mind is tired I am much more likely to make a mistake.

I hope you can see & understand my points.

Best Wishes.