Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

[JCIN]

You seem to be a standup WPA guy. Can you tell me just what the WPA has done for pool that has made pool better than it would be without them??

You really like putting words in my mouth don't you ?

I have lots of issues with the WPA but they are what we have to work with. Like it or not they are the recognized sanctioning body for world championships. When I say recognized I mean by our national federation the BCA. I have a lot of issues with them too but once again they are whats in place. Yes I think its better to have some structure than none at all. Just because its not perfect doesnt mean its worthless.

I think the WPA has done a pretty good job with the game everywhere but in the United States. One of many reasons for that I think is demonstrated quite nicely in this thread.

 

[JCIN]

What further mystifies me is that D players are trying to tell the professionals how they should feel about themselves after this tournament, lest they get too thrilled.

Nice tactic. Paint people who disagree with false advertisement as trying to belittle pro players. When logic fails go to the emotional. Time honored.

 

[softshot]

Nice tactic. Paint people who disagree with false advertisement as trying to belittle pro players. When logic fails go to the emotional. Time honored.

Oliver Ortman won the World Championship title in this same event last year..

is he still the reigning world champion?? will he remain world champion in perpetuity?? forever??? despite losing the same event this year??

I mean after all he was beaten by Ray Martin who has a "Real" World Championship... or does he?? the WPA didn't sanction any of them... who's title's should be stripped???

how many of Ortmans WC'S are suspect??? how many can he legally claim? if no one scrapes up $200,000 in 10 years can he claim 10 straight World Championships??????

where is Dennis Walsh when you need him?

 

[softshot]

AZ frontpage " Thorsten Hohmann dominated the 71st World Tournament of 14.1."

WRONG!!! he didn't win the 71st annual anything.. he won the FIRST annual World Tournament..

If I'm Charlie Williams who bought the rights to hold the world championship... I want my money back..

what a JOKE..

 

[JB Cases]

I think that the criticism here goes in the wrong direction. Some blame the players. Others blame DP and Charlie Williams. But the biggest question is why is the WPA so weak that it cant control what event is a legitimate one when it comes to World titles?
If the WPA had full fan and player support then any promoter who wanted to do a World Championship would be questioned? Unfortunately many of us, ok Ill speak for myself, dont know what the WPA does. What the structure is and what is the make up of the group.
Is it my fault? Partly. But if the NFL or NBA makes a decision I know it carries weight. The WPA has got to be more productive as well as the BCA to inform the public and also to regulate the game fairly.
When I was a kid and came to the big city I always saw diners advertise "best food in town". I thought well how could that be? Whose got the "best" food? Do people see that as false advertising?
I realized its one of the basic tenets of capitalism. Capture the heart of the consumer.
Charlie Williams/DP built it and people came. Its up to a governing body that people trust and believe in to accept it or not. Dont blame him or the players that participate in it.

Keone

The WPA cannot stop anyone from holding an event and calling it the World Championship. UNLESS they somehow hold the worldwide trademark on that title and are willing to sue to stop anyone else from using it. I am not familiar with how trademark law works in regard to events. Certainly one would think something like a well known music festival would be protected under existing trademark law.

What the WPA can do is simply withhold sanctioning and refuse to recognize the title. Thus the winner never gets their name listed in the record books as a 2011 14.1 World Champion.

And in fact that's what has happened. Thorsten can claim the title if he wishes to. He can put it on his resume. He can feel like a World Champion. But I am willing to bet that Thorsten doesn't CHERISH this victory as much as he does his European Championships in 14.1 which were won over super tough competitors who had to earn the right to play there.

And he probably doesn't cherish it as much as the WPA 9-Ball World Championship he won.

Only he knows that.

What I can't understand is that with all the wealthy people around who profess to love 14.1 why is it so hard to simply come up with the 75k added and the sanctioning fee?

The best food comment reminds me of this joke;

Walking down the block I see a pizza place with big neon signs proclaiming "Best Pizza in the Universe" - Next to it is another place with a big painted window that says "Best PIzza in the Country" - and another Best PIzza in teh City! in the middle of the block in a little run down place was a small place with a simple handwritten sign, "best pizza on the block".

 

[JAM]

This article on AzBilliard Main Page says these are "World Champions."

What I'm trying to find out is why. Does anybody know? I cannot find the money payouts, if any. The president of the WPA, Ian Andersion, is the honorary chairman of this organization: http://www.makmarketing.pl/worldchampionships2011/honorary_commitee.php

The rest of the members appear to be Polish, I think, but I may be wrong.

Here is the article: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=9192

Maybe it is semantics, but the timing of the actual titling this article "World Champions" on the heels of the Dragon 14.1 event, with all of the semantic colloquy about that one little word "world," is interesting.

 

[yobagua]

What was the WPA supposed to do ? They have a sanctioning process in place for world championships. DP chose not to meet the qualifications for sanctioning. As is their right. They can call the event whatever they want as far as I know. The WPA can and did say they don't recognize it as a World Championship. End of the day if you don't care about what the WPA says and don't care that individual promoters use the world champion title without sanction then it's all much ado about nothing. If you do care about having some sanctioning and organization then it does make a difference.

Also when this event was first released it was said to be a "half BCA points event" whatever that it is. The BCA came out and made it clear there would be no points awarded for this event. Just call it what it is.

I never did say I didnt care about organization or the sanctity of sanctioning but to tell you the truth. I really dont care about what the WPA says. I dont care what the BCA says. Until they make me care I guess I wont. They have to work hard to get my support. They have to be accesible to me in terms of the process they go through to make pool a legitimate sport.
I have respect for DP as well as CSI, TAR, ACCU-Stats, because they work hard to make me care. Caring about the concept of the quality of organization versus caring about what the WPA/BCA does are two different things.

 

[JAM]

I never did say I didnt care about organization or the sanctity of sanctioning but to tell you the truth. I really dont care about what the WPA says. I dont care what the BCA says. Until they make me care I guess I wont. They have to work hard to get my support. They have to be accesible to me in terms of the process they go through to make pool a legitimate sport.
I have respect for DP as well as CSI, TAR, ACCU-Stats, because they work hard to make me care. Caring about the concept of the quality of organization versus caring about what the WPA/BCA does are two different things.

Hear, hear, and tap, tap, tap. I'm with you, my friend! :smile:

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[JAM]

...The really strange part of all this, is that the WPA is supposed to be a unifying organization for all the federations. The BCA is the North American arm of the WPA. (We all know where the BCA stands on pool) Yet, the WPA does not recognize the BCA World Champions.????

Now, for anyone- some say having the WPA is a good thing for pool. They are a unifying body to make pool look like a world sport. How has this made pool any better than it was before the WPA.

Neil, Read Post No. 166 on this thread. I'm still scratching my head why these are "world champions." I don't understand how they passed the WPA sanctioning guidelines. Heck, I can't even find out the names of these so-called "world chamipions" in a photograph.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

This article on AzBilliard Main Page says these are "World Champions."

What I'm trying to find out is why. Does anybody know? I cannot find the money payouts, if any. The president of the WPA, Ian Andersion, is the honorary chairman of this organization: http://www.makmarketing.pl/worldchampionships2011/honorary_commitee.php

The rest of the members appear to be Polish, I think, but I may be wrong.

Here is the article: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=9192

Maybe it is semantics, but the timing of the actual titling this article "World Champions" on the heels of the Dragon 14.1 event, with all of the semantic colloquy about that one little word "world," is interesting.

JAM, you left out some very important information: These players are World Champions of the 9-ball Juniors Division and the Wheelchair Division.

There's nothing mysterious about the timing of the article. Both the DP event and the World Juniors and Wheelchair events occurred at about the same time.

As for your other posting where you 'can't even find out the names of these so-called "world chamipions" in a photograph', the World Junior champion Marek Kudlik's picture is displayed in the very article you cited. BTW, Tahti Jouni is the winner in wheelchairs division and her picture is also displayed in another article: http://www.makmarketing.pl/worldchampionships2011/news.php?inf_id=48

If you're really interested in the money payout of the Juniors or the Wheelchair event, you could try contacting the President of the WPA, Ian Andersion. (I'm not sure but the prizes are trophies, not money.)

 

[JAM]

JAM, you left out some very important information: These players are World Champions of the 9-ball Juniors Division and the Wheelchair Division.

There's nothing mysterious about the timing of the article. Both the DP event and the World Juniors event occurred at about the same time.

As for your other posting where you 'can't even find out the names of these so-called "world chamipions" in a photograph', the World Junior champion Marek Kudlik's picture is displayed in the very article you cited. BTW, Tahti Jouni is the winner in wheelchairs division and her picture is also displayed in another article: http://www.makmarketing.pl/worldchampionships2011/news.php?inf_id=48

If you're really interested in the money payout of the Juniors or the Wheelchair event, you could try contacting the President of the WPA, Ian Andersion. (I'm not sure but the prizes are trophies, not money.)

How can you ascertain who the winner is in the picture? Marked or Kudlik? And who is the blond?

Did this European tournament consisting of Polish participants pay the WPA the sanctioning fees required to labeled "World Champions"?

I didn't leave out the juinors or wheelchair, though. I did insert the link. In fact, I created a thread about this topic, but there's more interest in the topic of being gay, aiming, who's hanging on whose nuts, how is Fatboy feeling today, or why charging for water is a good thing.

In the end, what does a tin cup or a title mean for the player? Does it put money in their pocket? Does it bring them sponsorship? Who's getting fat off of the "world chamipion" moniker is the real question. I'm not so sure it's the players.

 

[beetle]

I wish it were just a tactic. See post 130.

Nice tactic. Paint people who disagree with false advertisement as trying to belittle pro players. When logic fails go to the emotional. Time honored.

 

[JB Cases]

How can you ascertain who the winner is in the picture? Marked or Kudlik? And who is the blond?

Did this European tournament consisting of Polish participants pay the WPA the sanctioning fees required to labeled "World Champions"?

I didn't leave out the juinors or wheelchair, though. I did insert the link. In fact, I created a thread about this topic, but there's more interest in the topic of being gay, aiming, who's hanging on whose nuts, how is Fatboy feeling today, or why charging for water is a good thing.

In the end, what does a tin cup or a title mean for the player? Does it put money in their pocket? Does it bring them sponsorship? Who's getting fat off of the "world chamipion" moniker is the real question. I'm not so sure it's the players.

I think when it comes to the juniors and the wheelchair athletes it's obvious that the guidelines applied to able-bodied adult professionals don't apply.

Love them or hate them the WPA IS trying to apply a minimum standard for promoters to live up to in order to be sanctioned. They would like to see a full roster of events which the professionals can depend on in terms of prize money and points.

Let's not go after the kids and get them involved in this.

 

[JAM]

I think when it comes to the juniors and the wheelchair athletes it's obvious that the guidelines applied to able-bodied adult professionals don't apply.

Love them or hate them the WPA IS trying to apply a minimum standard for promoters to live up to in order to be sanctioned. They would like to see a full roster of events which the professionals can depend on in terms of prize money and points.

Let's not go after the kids and get them involved in this.

John, I agree that getting the kids involved is a good thing for sure.

As is much about the WPA, I can't find any information. If they make concessions for the juniors and handicapped players, I am not against that at all.

Seeing the title "WORLD CHAMPIONS" on AzBilliards Main Page so soon after this brouhaha about the 14.1 World Championship using "world" in its title just seems curious to me; thus, why I went to the link and tried to find out the rules for sanctioning of the tournament for this juniors and handicapped event.

 

[td873]

...
And I believe this event will be regarded as the true World 14.1 Championship this year, 2011, and into the future, that this is undoubtedly the largest International 14.1 event in the World, filled with almost all of the best 14.1 players from around the world every year, and that almost every pro player considers it a true World Championship. Period.
...

Max,

With all due respect, your post shows a distinct lack of understanding about how World Championships must be conducted.

Wow. All of this is just another reason pool has very little mainstream support. Now we have different organitions - both striving to better pool - bickering over who has the right to call something a "world championship."

IMO, no universal power has granted WPA/BCA the exclusive right to call or withhold the title "world championship. If they don't support an event, then the value of winning may be diminished, but there is nothing to prevent the title from being "world champion." Put differently, it is the number of sanctioning bodies that support a tournament that give credence to the title, but they cannot unilaterally force anyone to remove that title. Taking this to the extreme, if the number one player in the world missed his plane and didn't show up, would anyone really say it wasn't a legitimate world championship? What if two top players didn't show? What about 10? What if DP started its own records book? Or it's own hall-of-fame? WPA/BCA might have no ability to stop them. Do these same people deny that the World Series winner is not really a World Champion because there are no Italian teams? What about the World Champion Football team? Of course, if there is evidence that my opinion is incorrect, I will stand corrected.

All this rhetoric aside, it would be nice if the people in power would sit at the table and actually try to make things better rather than try to show who is better.

Just my $0.02. Which is probably worth much less.

-td

 

[JCIN]

Its just funny to me to hear so many people say things like "Lets all get along.....we need organization.....why cant everyone work together" etc etc. But then as soon as a polarizing situation comes up that would make them have to compromise on their views its "Screw 'em!"

I also notice no one has answered any of the questions I posed. It all comes back to the emotional argument of "Who are the they to tell me anything."

My main point is truth in advertising. Evidently it doesn't matter to many around here so I'll just quit tilting at that particular windmill.

 

[maxeberle]

So, do you think that the title of U.S. Open winner doesn't count for much because D players play in that too? To me, it really doesn't matter if the "public" can get in, just that there is a good amount of top players represented.

So true. There are very few purely invitational major events in the whole pool world... including the most prestigious US Open 9-Ball. ...and because of the storm some guys could not make it so why now give a few straight pool lovers a thrill and keep the field full and the prize money up.

In the end I'm right... people will look to this event to find the 14.1 World Champion and finishers for this year.

There really was never a debate. Some folks just did not want to see that happen, and their friends and fans supported them... but now won't be able to do anything about it, and probably realize that's ok. And that is good for everyone.

Justin that is a big "if" on your hypothetical 14.1 event...(no one in the world was doing anything big with 14.1, it was in fact dying) Charlie and Cindy did a smart thing and now get some flack from people who do not like that... Now 14.1 is stronger since DP revived it btw...

The players still support DP and this event, and now that it is over, this argument is becoming moot because I feel even those who have been trying to deny it, know and feel in their heart of hearts that, yeah ok, this was the real deal... let's see what the future holds. Make it brighter. Work together, or at least not try to bring each other down for crying out loud!

Ok time to move on...

See you guys around, enjoy your day.

Max Eberle

 

[Mark Griffin]

14.1

Td873,

Not sure if you read through the 250+ posts - but if I can help you understand what s going on, I will try. It just seems this thread has had many explanations of who/what the WPA is.

And many just elect to ignore the facts of the situation

The WPA is the world body for pool. They have the authority to put out the criteria for calling an event as a 'world championship'. Either you accept that or you don't.

You are mistaken to compare the two organizations in the context of conducting 'world championship'. With your reasoning, there can be countless world championships, all to the detriment f the sport.

You suggest the people in power sit down and work together to make things better, instead of trying to determine who is better.

What do you think the WPA is trying to do? They are a world wide organization that will be presenting something close to 3 million in prize fund the next year.

They are not the ones creating the confusion. Perhaps your frustration is pointed in the wrong direction!

Mark griffin

Wow. All of this is just another reason pool has very little mainstream support. Now we have different organitions - both striving to better pool - bickering over who has the right to call something a "world championship."

IMO, no universal power has granted WPA/BCA the exclusive right to call or withhold the title "world championship. If they don't support an event, then the value of winning may be diminished, but there is nothing to prevent the title from being "world champion." Put differently, it is the number of sanctioning bodies that support a tournament that give credence to the title, but they cannot unilaterally force anyone to remove that title. Taking this to the extreme, if the number one player in the world missed his plane and didn't show up, would anyone really say it wasn't a legitimate world championship? What if two top players didn't show? What about 10? What if DP started its own records book? Or it's own hall-of-fame? WPA/BCA might have no ability to stop them. Do these same people deny that the World Series winner is not really a World Champion because there are no Italian teams? What about the World Champion Football team? Of course, if there is evidence that my opinion is incorrect, I will stand corrected.

All this rhetoric aside, it would be nice if the people in power would sit at the table and actually try to make things better rather than try to show who is better.

Just my $0.02. Which is probably worth much less.

-td