draw shot poll - please respond

[mikepage]

This is true. If set up carefully it's impossible for me to get the CB past the side pocket with any stroke or english (and a level cue). I can barely get the CB to scratch in the side pocket with straight centerball draw, but not with any sidespin.

pj
chgo

The details of the ball positions is not so important. On old sticky cloth, it's easy to pull it back, and on new slick cloth it may be impossible. For my purposes, the position of the balls should be whatever causes you to say to yourself,

I THINK or I'm pretty sure I can get it past the side pocket, but I'm gonna have to hit it pretty good

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...If set up carefully it's impossible for me to get the CB past the side pocket with any stroke or english (and a level cue). I can barely get the CB to scratch in the side pocket with straight centerball draw, but not with any sidespin.

On old sticky cloth, it's easy to pull it back, and on new slick cloth it may be impossible. For my purposes, the position of the balls should be whatever causes you to say to yourself,

I THINK or I'm pretty sure I can get it past the side pocket, but I'm gonna have to hit it pretty good

My cloth is fairly new/clean (so the CB slides farther along the tangent line before curving). Stickier cloth would make the shot easier.

Of course it really doesn't matter where the balls are (or what condition your cloth is in) for purposes of comparing draw stroke techniques. If you're able to notice where on the rail the CB hits, you can compare the effectiveness of the different strokes. My comparison showed:

Low centerball is best (I could scratch in the side pocket)
Low left and low right are worse (I couldn't reach the side pocket)
Low left may be a little better than low right (they're about the same)

pj
chgo

 

[androd]

Imo softness of stroke is critical here to prevent the c.b deflecting before the draw can take effect. Therefore to facilitate softness I'd use low right.

i agree a softer shot is better, if you shorten your bridge length a lot ! you will remove the deflection and not come close to a scratch

 

[mikepage]

You want not only to draw past the side pocket, but to draw as far past it (toward A) as you can. You're hitting with a normal level cue (not jacked up). Do you hit with straight low, low left, or low right?

[...]

I see Blackjack, Sarah Rousey, and Freddy the Beard were online a little bit ago. It would sure be nice to have these people, as well as john schmidt, danny harriman, billy incardona, jay helfert, keith McCready, Scott Lee, Bob Jewett, thorston Hohman, Steve Lipsky, etc respond to this poll. Please don't feel you have to defend your choice or post any kind of explanation.

I just want to know what you actually do in this situation.

 

[WesleyW]

Dreamer.

pj
chgo

Not a dreamer, just seen it many times. You should watch some carom, this is a basic shot. Perhaps, you should stop dreaming yourself, using a level cue on a pool table. How about telling me your secret using a level cue to draw. Sounds like nonsens to me.

 

[av84fun]

CueTable Help

Hi Mike:

Here is a great chance to use one of the least used function on CueTable: the tangent line.

From the way it looks, I'd say it's nearly impossible unless:
1, the player will need to have a really good finesse in his/her stroke to do this.

2, the balls are really dirty

Maybe Scott Lee or Bob Jewett can explain it better here

I will print out the layout and try it later this week in the pool room. Just to be sporty, I am guessing the bottom-right in this poll.

I agree and especially given the awkward body position required on a 9 ft. which makes it that much more difficult to "dig in."

Regards,
Jim

 

[JoeyA]

You want not only to draw past the side pocket, but to draw as far past it (toward A) as you can. You're hitting with a normal level cue (not jacked up). Do you hit with straight low, low left, or low right?

CueTable Help

If all you're trying to do is get the cue ball to hit further down that right side rail, shooting with straight low and not with a hard stroke but just enough to get the cue ball traveling in that direction.

If you're trying to get further down the table toward the head rail or bottom rail then I would apply a little side spin with the draw in order to widen the angle when the cue ball comes off the side rail.

EDited: IN addition to the above, if you use low and you get any friction induced spin, you will increase your chances of pocketing the ball. Theoretically, if you apply low right English and are able to impart any left spin whatsoever to the object ball you will decrease your chances of pocketing the object ball. With even a small amount of left spin on the object ball, it will be more difficult for the object ball to fall into the pocket, especially at faster speeds. Taking into account the accuracy problem that occurs with side spin, you would do better using simple low draw.

All that being said, If I am trying to get the cue ball closer to the right side of the table and closer to the right side of the bottom rail, I will use low right to make the object ball.
JoeyA

 

[mikepage]

If all you're trying to do is get the cue ball to hit further down that right side rail, shooting with straight low and not with a hard stroke but just enough to get the cue ball traveling in that direction.

If you're trying to get further down the table toward the head rail or bottom rail then I would apply a little side spin with the draw in order to widen the angle when the cue ball comes off the side rail.

JoeyA

The first one is what I'm talking about.

 

[av84fun]

If you look at the following video at 2:45 from the '07 Predator World 10-Ball Championships it looks almost as if Shane has the same shot on the 6. However the 6 is a little closer to the pocket. It looks like he's using low-outside spin but scratches on the side pocket. He the 6 been on the spot as the cuetable diagram he woulda' hit point A as you put it.

http://propoolvideo.com/predator-wo...rld-10-ball-d.-orcullo-v.-s.-van-boening.html

I think the angle in this video is noticeably more shallow. The 6 ball is closer to the rail and farther down table.

I used balls to show what the set up actually is because small variations can make a BIG difference.

From Shane's position, he could have drawn the CB all the way to the corner pocket if he had tried to crank it...but he didn't.

Regards,
Jim

 

[n10spool]

Are we banking the ball or cutting it in the corner? That willl change how much ball we can hit.

 

[Scott Lee]

cleary...Regardless of what a couple of other posters said, you are correct. Sidespin has no significant effect on the path of the CB, UNTIL it contacts a rail. A "masse" effect would change this some, but the cue is not being elevated enough to change the variable of 'no significant effect'. Straight draw will bring the CB back further, without using sidespin to speed up (or inhibit) the CB, after contact with a cushion. Only top and bottom spin have any significant effect on changing the directional path of the CB, after contact with an OB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Does the right or left spin even affect getting to that point? I always thought that side spin does not change the cue balls path until the cue ball touches the rail. So to get the cue ball back, it shouldnt matter what, if any spin you use.... right? It really just matters where you contact the object ball.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

cleary...Regardless of what a couple of other posters said, you are correct. Sidespin has no significant effect on the path of the CB, UNTIL it contacts a rail. A "masse" effect would change this some, but the cue is not being elevated enough to change the variable of 'no significant effect'. Straight draw will bring the CB back further, without using sidespin to speed up (or inhibit) the CB, after contact with a cushion. Only top and bottom spin have any significant effect on changing the directional path of the CB, after contact with an OB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Are you saying with this shot and hitting softly, you can't throw the OB a little to help straighten the shot? Nothing to do with CB masse, its getting it to come back straighter. Bottom right will do it!

 

[Bob Jewett]

You want not only to draw past the side pocket, but to draw as far past it (toward A) as you can. You're hitting with a normal level cue (not jacked up). Do you hit with straight low, low left, or low right?...

I had an unfair advantage when I voted. Several of us were discussing this shot (at Hopkins' Super Billiard Expo?) and we did the experiment. I would have guessed that a little outside would help you, and in fact that's true for much shorter (CB-OB) shots, but with significant separation as shown in the diagram, plain draw is your best bet.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not a dreamer, just seen it many times. You should watch some carom, this is a basic shot. Perhaps, you should stop dreaming yourself, using a level cue on a pool table. How about telling me your secret using a level cue to draw. Sounds like nonsens to me.

I mean as level as possible, of course. If we're ever together I'll let you try to miss the long rail with this setup as often as you like (with your cue as level as possible) for cash.

pj
chgo

 

[dabarbr]

IMO I feel that most posters that suggest outside english with the draw are implying that this will allow you to strike the object ball just a bit fuller thus giving the the cue ball more traction on the cloth to defeat the tangent line.

The throw on the object ball will compensate for the fuller hit. A soft hit is required and the tip on your cue must be in good condition.

I know the original poster wanted suggestions for this with a level cue. If elevation was allowed and could be done in this situation with a right handed person, then this would be much more workable.

 

[Jal]

IMO I feel that most posters that suggest outside english with the draw are implying that this will allow you to strike the object ball just a bit fuller thus giving the the cue ball more traction on the cloth to defeat the tangent line.

The throw on the object ball will compensate for the fuller hit. A soft hit is required and the tip on your cue must be in good condition....

But there is a catch. Any throw of the object ball results in the same but opposite throw of the cueball. Using outside to enable you to hit fuller causes the cueball to speed up along the tangent line, and almost enough to fully negate the benefit of the fuller hit. Swerve from the outside english further reduces the benefit, and can, I think, result in entirely the opposite effect.

Smallish cut angles with the balls in close proximity are the best situations to use this technique.

Jim

 

[klockdoc]

Not me!

I guess I am not nearly as accomplished as anyone on this forum. I can't make it with low and not scratch. Next question..

 

[JoeyA]

If you look at the following video at 2:45 from the '07 Predator World 10-Ball Championships it looks almost as if Shane has the same shot on the 6. However the 6 is a little closer to the pocket. It looks like he's using low-outside spin but scratches on the side pocket. He the 6 been on the spot as the cuetable diagram he woulda' hit point A as you put it.

http://propoolvideo.com/predator-wo...rld-10-ball-d.-orcullo-v.-s.-van-boening.html

Yes, Shane used a little too much draw on that shot. Definitely had the outside spin working. Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

The first one is what I'm talking about.

I see BobbyJ's answer.

How did you vote? Mike, what I like about you is I don't have to say, "Now let's be honest".
JoeyA

 

[klockdoc]

Yes, Shane used a little too much draw on that shot. Definitely had the outside spin working. Thanks,
JoeyA

Joey, to me it looks like he had a totally different angle than the one shown in this OP. To me it looks like he "stunned" the ball instead of drawing it. From the looks of the shot, I would have thought he could have drawn back to almost straight in on the 7, if desired. The shot is also up almost another diamond from where the OP's 3 ball is. If anything, I think he was trying to catch the long rail to "spin" down to the 7. JMO