Draw stroke: tip or shaft?

[LAlouie]

If it's ONLY between tip or shaft, it's shaft. Some will probably say that a smaller tip let's you get under the cueball more, or a softer tip grabs better, however part and parcel to that dynamic is the stroke(which is not part of your question).

But with a lively shaft, you can draw even if you have the stroke of a pregnant moose.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[justadub]

timely question for me

Personally, I'm thrilled that the OP brought this up, and got so many responses (even more thrilled that the responses were civil and not derogatory).

Hitting a draw shot is my biggest mechanical/technical obstacle right now (among many, certainly) so I'm quite glad to see the information here. I joke with my friends, "imagine how good I could play if I could hit a draw shot?"

I've been wondering if it's "A" just mechanics (likely) or "B" a combination of mechanics and equipment, given that I'm playing with a cheap Excalibur with a tip that has been ground down far too often, in all likelihood. I've been hopeful that the answer is "B", even moreso now that I've seen this thread.

Yes, I know, try someone elses cue to see if that's the answer. Or at least partially the answer... and practice, practice, practice.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to all who have answered. I appreciate it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I do know it was regulation balls. ...

Unless you saw the weighing-in, you can't be sure.

On a proposition shot like this, the shooter should not be allowed to handle the balls -- too easy for funny things to happen. Another gaff that would be easier to implement undetected is to weight the object ball with lead.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[Cdryden]

Just to throw a little fuel on this fire, (assuming the stroke is good) do you think the tip type or tip diameter is a bigger factor?

I personally think any decent equipment is fine and my stroke and speed control is key in determining the power, distance and accuracy in my draw shot.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

If the stroke truly is fine. then change the tip and find out for yourself. theyre cheaper than shafts.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I thought I would chime in on this topic since I believe I have a good draw stroke. I own several maple shafts, 314-2, OB1 and OB2. Excluding the OB2 the diameter of the tips are all 12.75-13mm. The OB2 is 11.75.

I can transfer a lot more spin from the tip to the cue ball using the OB2. I chalk this up (no pun :grin to the diameter of the tip.

I think a good example would be to use a snooker cue and a pool cue (with a 13mm shaft) and try hitting a draw shot with the same stroke. I am confident the spin induced would be higher with the snooker cue.

 

[dr9ball]

I'm curious about whether the tip or the shaft has a greater effect in the ability to draw the CB. Assuming one's stroke is fine and the tip holds chalk, does the tip really play a huge role in drawing the CB... i.e. do some tips draw better than others?

I'm asking because right now I'm using a certain layered tip and while drawing the CB is possible, it's not as easy as I'd like. Is there a difference between layered vs. non-layered tips in terms of putting action on the CB?

A good stroke will have more impact on how you draw the ball than will a new shaft or Tip (providing it is a decent tip).

It is fairly easily draw a full table length with a house cue that has a decent tip. So my question is how far are you trying to draw the ball and how far can you draw it consistently with the various tips/shafts?

 

[dr9ball]

I thought I would chime in on this topic since I believe I have a good draw stroke. I own several maple shafts, 314-2, OB1 and OB2. Excluding the OB2 the diameter of the tips are all 12.75-13mm. The OB2 is 11.75.

I can transfer a lot more spin from the cue ball to the object ball using the OB2. I chalk this up (no pun :grin to the diameter of the tip.

I think a good example would be to use a snooker cue and a pool cue (with a 13mm shaft) and try hitting a draw shot with the same stroke. I am confident the spin induced would be higher with the snooker cue.

Is that because the snooker tip diameter is smaller and lets you hit a little lower on the cueball?

 

[dr_dave]

There are several explanations for why some people might be getting more spin with a smaller shaft and rounder tip. For more info and resources containing illustrations, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html#size​

Regards,
Dave

I thought I would chime in on this topic since I believe I have a good draw stroke. I own several maple shafts, 314-2, OB1 and OB2. Excluding the OB2 the diameter of the tips are all 12.75-13mm. The OB2 is 11.75.

I can transfer a lot more spin from the cue ball to the object ball using the OB2. I chalk this up (no pun :grin to the diameter of the tip.

I think a good example would be to use a snooker cue and a pool cue (with a 13mm shaft) and try hitting a draw shot with the same stroke. I am confident the spin induced would be higher with the snooker cue.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Just a quick chime in here. We often attribute a good draw stroke to being able to make the ball and get as much draw as one needs.

The key to making the ball is being very accurate with a high speed stroke. I would say this is mostly stroke and aim, but many feel like a smaller shaft dia improves aim, so in a sense, that would be better for draw.

In addition, hitting as low as possible on the cueball is key. While any tip size will do, I would argue that the smaller tips help one find the max draw point quicker. So, again smaller shaft might help.

I personally think shaft size should be max diameter that comfortably slides through your bridge at all angles. For me. . .13mm and cuemakers shaft.

 

[lfigueroa]

As Dave has explained, no.

Every day in every pool room across the world players will claim, in many languages, that ...this soft tip, this Le Pro, this Moori, this Kamui black super soft, this everest, layered tips, this hard tip, ...gets more action or draws the ball better...

It's self delusional gobblygook...

With all due respect, Mike, Dave et al, but (and without a scintilla of scientific evidence) just based on 40-some-odd years of playing: I ordered a couple of Kamui black SS tips a while back. I needed tips anyway and thought I'd give them a go.

Without a doubt, these tips grab the cue ball better/more than any tip I've ever played with. No change in cues, shaft diameter, balls, tables, nothin'. They're the real deal. I followed up wand ordered another dozen or so and put the first few on all the Gina shafts and travel cue.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[dr_dave]

Do you think they hold chalk better than other tips?

Do you think they allow you to hit farther out on the ball?

I'll have to give those a try.

In my experience, and in my testing, every tip I've used seems to have about the same miscue limit (based on the tip contact point on the cue ball), as long as it holds chalk.

Regards,
Dave

With all due respect, Mike, Dave et al, but (and without a scintilla of scientific evidence) just based on 40-some-odd years of playing: I ordered a couple of Kamui black SS tips a while back. I needed tips anyway and thought I'd give them a go.

Without a doubt, these tips grab the cue ball better/more than any tip I've ever played with. No change in cues, shaft diameter, balls, tables, nothin'. They're the real deal. I followed up wand ordered another dozen or so and put the first few on all the Gina shafts and travel cue.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[poolplayer2093]

I'm curious about whether the tip or the shaft has a greater effect in the ability to draw the CB. Assuming one's stroke is fine and the tip holds chalk, does the tip really play a huge role in drawing the CB... i.e. do some tips draw better than others?

I'm asking because right now I'm using a certain layered tip and while drawing the CB is possible, it's not as easy as I'd like. Is there a difference between layered vs. non-layered tips in terms of putting action on the CB?

it's mostly your mechanics. a good tip will help but to be honest it doesn't matter if it's layered or non layered. as long as it holds chalk

 

[lfigueroa]

Do you think they hold chalk better than other tips?

Do you think they allow you to hit farther out on the ball?

I'll have to give those a try.

In my experience, and in my testing, every tip I've used seems to have about the same miscue limit (based on the tip contact point on the cue ball), as long as it holds chalk.

Regards,
Dave

Hold chalk better? I dunno. I mean, if you scruff up any tip it can hold a cupcake's worth of chalk. These chalk just fine, even after hours and hours of use and they're all nice any shinny you can pull a shaft out with one of these tips on it and it will chalk up, no problemo.

Hit further out on the ball? I dunno. I hit the ball where I hit the ball. To me it's not about trying to see how far out I can go. I kinda think these questions are somewhat irrelevant. As a player, the issue to me is the feedback I get at the moment of cue tip cue ball impact. And the feedback I get with these tips is that the tip is grabbing the cue ball more than with other tips. An example of this is that with these tips I feel like I can use a softer stroke to get draw action on those little shots where you're delicately maneuvering around the stack. Stuff like that is more relevant, at least to me.

I mentioned all this to another player in my home room and he asked if he could buy a tip from me to try it. He put one on and he said I was right -- the tip grabbed the cue ball better and he went and bought a stash for himself.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mikepage]

With all due respect, Mike, Dave et al, but (and without a scintilla of scientific evidence) just based on 40-some-odd years of playing: I ordered a couple of Kamui black SS tips a while back. I needed tips anyway and thought I'd give them a go.

Without a doubt, these tips grab the cue ball better/more than any tip I've ever played with. No change in cues, shaft diameter, balls, tables, nothin'. They're the real deal. I followed up wand ordered another dozen or so and put the first few on all the Gina shafts and travel cue.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Lou Figueroa

When I was a kid, everybody ran in Keds (sneakers). Then Converse sneakers came out (Cons). The claim was people could run much faster in Cons than Keds. The fastest runners were thoroughly convinced of this. Most of us tried and failed to convince our parents to let us retire our Keds in favor of a spendy new pair of Cons. People laced up a pair of Cons and felt... well... fast.

The thing is, unless the other tips slip on the ball, like a partial miscue, there is no "grabbing" better. The "grab" is just the static friction.

If it's any consolation, I don't think Keds slipped on the pavement either.

Maybe during our next big tournament we'll run a winner-take-all draw contest. Start by adding some money, and then charge $5 or $10 per four tries, with the stipulation that the four tries are with the four cues we provide:

stiff shaft plus Kamui black SS

whippy shaft plus Kamui black SS

stiff + hard tip

whippy plus hard tip

...then we'll have half of them run around the building in a pair of Keds ....

 

[rburgoyne]

Draw Drill

Personally, I'm thrilled that the OP brought this up, and got so many responses (even more thrilled that the responses were civil and not derogatory).

Hitting a draw shot is my biggest mechanical/technical obstacle right now (among many, certainly) so I'm quite glad to see the information here. I joke with my friends, "imagine how good I could play if I could hit a draw shot?"

I've been wondering if it's "A" just mechanics (likely) or "B" a combination of mechanics and equipment, given that I'm playing with a cheap Excalibur with a tip that has been ground down far too often, in all likelihood. I've been hopeful that the answer is "B", even moreso now that I've seen this thread.

Yes, I know, try someone elses cue to see if that's the answer. Or at least partially the answer... and practice, practice, practice.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to all who have answered. I appreciate it.

If your tip is ground down, yeah, you want to replace it. Also there is an great draw drill I use to use to help me practice draw shots. basically, take 6 balls, and place one in front of each pocket. Start with ball in hand, and make all 6 balls, but never let the cue ball hit the rail. If it hits, you lose and have to start over. When you get good enough that you can run it most of the time, switch it up and shoot the balls in a different order such as numerical or around the table, opposite corner to corner, etc. Enjoy.

 

[rburgoyne]

When I was a kid, everybody ran in Keds (sneakers). Then Converse sneakers came out (Cons). The claim was people could run much faster in Cons than Keds. The fastest runners were thoroughly convinced of this. Most of us tried and failed to convince our parents to let us retire our Keds in favor of a spendy new pair of Cons. People laced up a pair of Cons and felt... well... fast.
....

I always thought Zips were faster than both of those. At least that what the guy at the shoe store told me.

 

[dr_dave]

I asked the questions I did because when somebody claims a tip "grabs better," to me this either means it doesn't miscue as often and/or the CB can be hit farther off-center without a miscue (to get more spin).

It sounds like you mean it "feels better" (i.e., you like the "hit" and "feedback"). Maybe you prefer the hardness compared to the previous tips you've used. A harder tip will typically be slightly more efficient and maybe require slightly less effort.

"Hit" and "feedback" are very subjective. What feels good to one top player might feel terrible to another top player. Also, a hard tip on a stiff shaft might "grab the ball" just as well as soft tip on a whippy shaft, even though the "feedback" is much different.

Regards,
Dave

Hold chalk better? I dunno. I mean, if you scruff up any tip it can hold a cupcake's worth of chalk. These chalk just fine, even after hours and hours of use and they're all nice any shinny you can pull a shaft out with one of these tips on it and it will chalk up, no problemo.

Hit further out on the ball? I dunno. I hit the ball where I hit the ball. To me it's not about trying to see how far out I can go. I kinda think these questions are somewhat irrelevant. As a player, the issue to me is the feedback I get at the moment of cue tip cue ball impact. And the feedback I get with these tips is that the tip is grabbing the cue ball more than with other tips. An example of this is that with these tips I feel like I can use a softer stroke to get draw action on those little shots where you're delicately maneuvering around the stack. Stuff like that is more relevant, at least to me.

I mentioned all this to another player in my home room and he asked if he could buy a tip from me to try it. He put one on and he said I was right -- the tip grabbed the cue ball better and he went and bought a stash for himself.

Lou Figueroa