Earl "The Pearl"...need I say more?

[Rick S.]

If Efren or Parica had shown up in the 70's in Los Angeles and ran into Keith on a bar table, the filipino invasion may have never happened.

Or, ............Earl on the big table.

They BOTH would have made the Filipinos use their return air ticket rather quickly.

Rick S.

 

[ShootingArts]

Always interesting

The game is different, a lot different. The players that have improved greatly are the middle and upper players, the not quite greats. In the seventies and early eighties I could go to a good sized city and have a handful of players to beat although I was never considered a serious player. Now although there are fewer players, there are many more in the same sized city that can give almost anybody passing through a good game. I strongly agree that the greats of any era including today would be great in any era they played in. However, I do think that muscling around balls on a deep cloth five by ten would have kept many of today's A players and short stops from ever learning the game. I played my first fairly serious pool around 1970. The tables were six and a half to ten feet long, the cloth was fast to deep, and the sticks were 15 to 22 ounces plus.

No question that it was a far tougher game on a deep five by ten. It did indeed take a much stronger stroke to make many shots and cloth nap was an issue with many shots or leaves. Understanding cloth was an art, one few players have now. Those big heavy sticks were harder to control too, you had a seeming baseball bat sized chunk of wood in your hands. One thing seldom mentioned is rails. I was intensely aware of how much more action we get off of today's rails after a twenty year layoff myself. I had great difficulty adjusting. Then I played on some very well kept up twenty year old diamonds and twenty-five year old Valleys. These I could get used to in a hurry because I was returning to what I once knew. Everything about the new equipment is a little different, not just the cloth.

The old greats, many drug out of mothballs for the $30,000 the IPT offered them didn't fair well as a whole. I have to say that if today's players had a decade or two layoff and then introduce them to the old equipment they would fair equally poorly as a group.

Were it possible to match up the old players in their prime against today's players in their prime playing all games on all equipment, the old players would win overall for a simple reason. With the exception of the Filipinos and a few others, the older players were far more adaptable to many different playing conditions and games. There wasn't any choice, this was the price of survival.

Hu

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

I'm afraid Efren or Parica could have hung with anyone in this country when they came over. I watched them both play in 1985 and they were both awesome.

I know Efren lost a $10,000 set to Buddy Hall in 1985, but it was at the end of a tournament Efren had just won and he says he was tired.

Then again, Buddy ran about seven racks on him.

They played rotation for the cash in the Phillipines, and nine ball for them was easy.

 

[TheOne]

Don't get me wrong, what Appleton, Boyes and a couple of other Brits did on the IPT was very impressive. But I have yet to see anyone who played any better then Buddy, Sigel and Mizerak played in the 70's and 80's. And Hopkins, Rempe, Varner and Fusco were not far behind them. I'm talking all games now, not just one. 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1, these guys were what we called "All Around" players. With Buddy, Varner and Fusco, you could throw Bank Pool into the mix too.

Before I get bashed, there are two exceptions to the above, named Efren and Parica. They DID play as good as anyone I named. Maybe better in some cases. Modern day, there are many great players, maybe more now than ever. But only a few stack up as all around players with the all time greats. Ralf Souquet comes to mind first. It's a real short list.

Totally agree Jay, my point is you these players aren't the ones crying about todays players being lucky or making endless other excuses as to why they can't compete anymore...its only the ones that can't adapt to todays modern game.

Interestingly I asked a few knowledgable people (Americans) who I respect at the last couple of 14.1 world championships a question. Do you think this tournament could have had a stronger field, after some thought the answer was "no not really" or words to that effect. When it comes to 14.1 in todays era the general feeling was the last two tournaments where almost as strong as they could be (apart from some names that filled withdrawls of course, but nothing you can do about that in a round robing system really).

A point that I often hear (again in America by certain scholars of the game) is that the old world championships had very few European and Asian players in them so certainly weren't as strong as todays events.

Thankfully its before my time but I thought I'd share these views to see what others thought.

Just to be clear there are many legends of yesterday that I admire, for example I learnt more about 14.1 watching Hopkins play on another table while being thumped by Davis in 2006 last 16 then I have on this forum for example. I watched Buddy Hall win the 1 pocket event at hard times a couple of years ago with some outstanding shots and cue ball control. I think I was supposed to play him in the last 8 but unfortunately he lost, I was more dissapointed about that than losing to Manalo to finish 3rd.

Varner certainly proved to everyone on the IPT what a great player he is, my point is the very best players of yesterday can and do compete today. You don't often hear Efren or Buddy complaing that todays players are "lucky, jump cues suck, bla bla bla" Zzzzzz

Sober up and get your ass down the club and put some hours in that's what I say!

 

[Rick S.]

A point that I often hear (again in America by certain scholars of the game) is that the old world championships had very few European and Asian players in them so certainly weren't as strong as todays events.

Yeah right....

You do know why there was less Europeans, and Asians playing back then don't you?

Because they didn't want to travel 1/2 way around the world to get their ASS kicked by Mike Siegel, Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Keith Mc, and Nick Varner. Plus another handful of AMERICAN players.

It's as simple as that.

Rick S.

 

[TheOne]

Yeah right....

You do know why there was less Europeans, and Asians playing back then don't you?

Because they didn't want to travel 1/2 way around the world to get there ASS kicked by Mike Siegel, Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Keith Mc, and Nick Varner. Plus another handful of AMERICAN players.

It's as simple as that.

Rick S.

Efren and Parica sure proved that when they went over to the states didnt they, I'm surprised they ever returned!

You was right about there being fewer, just not the reason why there was fewer.

 

[Rick S.]

Efren and Parica sure proved that when they went over to the states didnt they, I'm surprised they ever returned!

You was right about there being fewer, just not the reason why there was fewer.

You said 'old world'.....

I don't consider 20 years as 'old world'.

Up until Efren, and Jose hit the shore, It was ALL American.


Rick S.

 

[TheOne]

You said 'old world'.....

I don't consider 20 years as 'old world'.

Up until Efren, and Jose hit the shore, It was ALL American.


Rick S.

I think the topic of conversation has been "80's" which I think is around 20 years ago, maybe a little more?

 

[Scott Lee]

JAM...This statement doesn't hold much weight, since many tournaments have moved to "rack your own"!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You know, maybe the players of today are better than the players of the '80s because today the professional players know exactly how to rig the rack for every break imaginable in 9-ball, and let's not forget how much talent it takes to break like a bird.

JAM

 

[Scott Lee]

Craig...Yeah, that Efren guy (one of the old so-called legends) sure got his ass handed to him, didn't he? Oh wait...nope...he WON two of the four tournaments held, didn't he?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The fact is a lot of the old so called legends got their arses kicked, many by players who'd never even played American pool before!

 

[JAM]

JAM...This statement doesn't hold much weight, since many tournaments have moved to "rack your own"!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee, I have witnessed pro players at tournament racking their own, so that when they break them, the exact same wing ball will fall in the same hole. In fact, these rack riggers know EXACTLY how to do it. They know where to place the cracks in the rack to suit themselves, whether they are breaking or their opponent is breaking.

In fact, at the Carolinas Open, I witnessed one player do it six times in a row in a winner-rack format 9-ball tournament. His opponent looked like he was going to puke.

Buddy Hall witnessed it as well and made the comment that maybe a loser-break format would be an interesting concept to pursue.

Thanks for your opinion.

JAM

 

[JAM]

Craig...Yeah, that Efren guy (one of the old so-called legends) sure got his ass handed to him, didn't he? Oh wait...nope...he WON two of the four tournaments held, didn't he?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

How interesting that that Efren guy is a player from the '80s, too. Well, it looks like the players from the '80s are just as strong as today's young guns. Very astute observation, Scott Lee!

JAM

 

[Scott Lee]

JAM...Why wouldn't the opponent, in this case, complain to the TD, and ask them to "qualify" the rack (since there would have to be some 'flaw' in how the balls were racked, for this to happen over and over the same way)? Wouldn't that fall under the TD's responsibility? Just curious why someone would knowingly allow their opponent to "rig" the rack, time after time?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee, I have witnessed pro players at tournament racking their own, so that when they break them, the exact same wing ball will fall in the same hole. In fact, these rack riggers know EXACTLY how to do it. They know where to place the cracks in the rack to suit themselves, whether they are breaking or their opponent is breaking.

In fact, at the Carolinas Open, I witnessed one player do it six times in a row in a winner-rack format 9-ball tournament. His opponent looked like he was going to puke.

Buddy Hall witnessed it as well and made the comment that maybe a loser-break format would be an interesting concept to pursue.

Thanks for your opinion.

JAM

 

[Rick S.]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=96026

While we're on the subject of Earl........some 'Limited Edition' posters-prints are available.

Majority of profit is going to Earl.....he needs it.

Rick S.

 

[JAM]

JAM...Why wouldn't the opponent, in this case, complain to the TD, and ask them to "qualify" the rack (since there would have to be some 'flaw' in how the balls were racked, for this to happen over and over the same way)? Wouldn't that fall under the TD's responsibility? Just curious why someone would knowingly allow their opponent to "rig" the rack, time after time?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee, I have wondered the exact same thing. Yet, rack rigging continues to happen at 9-ball tournaments.

What is funny to me is the loudest complainers in the tournament about the bad racks are the ones who not only know how to rig a rack, but they are the experts are rigging racks.

In fact, there is one very high-profile player who has the reputation as being the "best" at rigging racks. Anybody who attends pro events on a regular basis knows who exactly who this player is. And he's not the only one who is known to be a good rack rigger.

Have you ever read Joe Tucker's book? He has an incredible diagram that shows the cracks in the racks AND what break would suit each crack-in-the-rack formation of the 9 balls favorably. The book is out of print, but those who have a copy treasure it like a pool player's bible.

As far as TDs go, I complained to a TD one time about the blatant rack-rigging at an event. His response to me was that if the opponent did not question the rigged rack, then it is okay to rig a rack in his tournament. In other words, he was aware that the rack rigging was happening, as others had complained about it. His opinion was that it was perfectly legal to rig a rack, as long as the opposing player did not complain.

I really disagree with this school of thought for personal reasons I won't go into on this thread.

The solution would be to have neutral rackers. Unfortunately, that would be too expensive to do in most pool tournaments, with the exception of the finals maybe.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

Craig...Yeah, that Efren guy (one of the old so-called legends) sure got his ass handed to him, didn't he? Oh wait...nope...he WON two of the four tournaments held, didn't he?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott sit down you will like this...

Not only is Efren a legend of the 80's, apparently he's also....

1. A rack rigging genius
2. A jump cue master
3. And the luckiest player on earth!

You see he somehow manages to win in these modern day times were only rack rigging, lucky, jump cue pretenders can win!

What I don't get is why Efren (as somebody rightly pointed out an 80's player) win's almost all his tournaments, yet all these other so called 80's legends have all these exucses?

Anyone?

 

[Rick S.]

Efren can flat out play...

What I don't get is why Efren (as somebody rightly pointed out an 80's player) win's almost all his tournaments, yet all these other so called 80's legends have all these exucses?

Anyone?

SO called...??

Dude....

Most of these guys have forgotten more than you'll ever know. To try and discredit them now, after all they achieved is...just crazy.

To borrow an old quote...."you couldn't hold the jockstrap" of any of these 'So called" legends.

And I'll go as far as stake a few of them against you right now...for whatever you got, and will ever have in the future.

Want SUM??

Rick S.

 

[JAM]

Scott sit down you will like this...

Not only is Efren a legend of the 80's, apparently he's also....

1. A rack rigging genius
2. A jump cue master
3. And the luckiest player on earth!

You see he somehow manages to win in these modern day times were only rack rigging, lucky, jump cue pretenders can win!

What I don't get is why Efren (as somebody rightly pointed out an 80's player) win's almost all his tournaments, yet all these other so called 80's legends have all these exucses?

Anyone?

The above-referenced post is another example of a poster attempting to antagonize and cause consternation on this forum; in particular, with me.

NOBODY said Efren was a rack rigger, that he wins only because he is lucky, or that he cannot play without a jump cue.

The original opinion that at least I was addressing was that players from the '80s do play as good as players of today.

Now go ahead and dissect my words to mean something that they are not. That seems to be what you enjoy on this forum the most.

JAM

 

[Scott Lee]

...and one that I happen to agree with!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The original opinion that at least I was addressing was that players from the '80s do play as good as players of today.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

SO called...??

Dude....

Most of these guys have forgotten more than you'll ever know. To try and discredit them now, after all they achieved is...just crazy.

To borrow an old quote...."you couldn't hold the jockstrap" of any of these 'So called" legends.

And I'll go as far as stake a few of them against you right now...for whatever you got, and will ever have in the future.

Want SUM??

Rick S.

Do you even know who you are defending? Do you even know who you would be staking? I think the legends of yesterday stand out clearly and I have named many.

I am defending modern day players. More specifically this ridiculous statement that others objected with:

"I would venture to guess if you changed the rules of the game, to include the equipment, with no jump cues allowed, today's fierce competitors could have been yesterday's wimps."

Tell you what i'll pick one of todays "fierce competitors" and you pick one of yesterdays legends who truly believes todays fierce competitors only win because of luck,rigged racks, and jump cues and we can both stake our own?

As for myself if as I hope I can semi retire in a few years and play pool part time I will play one of these so called legends and you can stake them, I'll stake myself I'll bring my jockstrap too just for fun!